Need big favour doing regarding 321/4s, 220s, 180s, 319s consists

[Aictos]

I've got the above trains but am looking at some new consists to use with them, I have no idea however on how or where to start so would gratefully receive any help, would also benefit the wider BVE community on the whole...

I'm looking at 8 and 12 formations for the 321/3s, 321/4s and 319s.
I've also looking at a 8 car formation for the 220 but also a 12 car formation to re-enact these Chiltern blockade busters.
Finally, a 10 car formation for the 180.

I know there's probably tools available but I wouldn't know where to start,

 

[Wim G.P.R]

I think you are talking about bve train cab views as none of the one's listed have external views, so basically it does not matter how long the train consist is they will act the same if say you had a 5 car or or a 15 car 180 for example..

You are not making any real difference to the way they perform power to weight wise ratio wise.

Nice to see a load of my trains in the list!

Stevegr

 

[Aictos]

Yes but with longer trains, the power to wheel ratio is much higher ie while a Class 319 as a 4 car would probably fly, a 12 car would take longer to brake or to pick up speed.
It's much like light engines, they fly when on their own but give them soemthing to haul, it's shows clearly.

I'm not looking at any external views rather some extra consists of existing trains for BVE4 which need the finer details doing ie braking, speeding etc...as you cannot tell me a 12 car acts the same as a 4 car!

As to using your trains, well what can I say? I love using them, just wondering what's the next train that you're going to do - 365 maybe

 

[90019]

Yes but with longer trains, the power to wheel ratio is much higher ie while a Class 319 as a 4 car would probably fly, a 12 car would take longer to brake or to pick up speed.

They should be exactly the same (unless one of the units is DIT), as the power to weight and power to wheel ratios are identical. As are the number of powered cars to trailer cars.

Think about it, if you have a single 319, you have 1 motor and 3 trailers, you add a second you now have 2 motors and 6 trailers so the ratio between them hasn't changed. The weight has doubled, but so has the total power output, as has the number of wheels being powered.

It's much like light engines, they fly when on their own but give them soemthing to haul, it's shows clearly.

It's nothing like light engines, it would be if you removed trailer cars from the consist, or if the second unit is DIT.

 

[Aictos]

Yes but what do I have to change in the train.dat file, it's all numbers to me which doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[velaro]

Find the #CAR section. The second entry is the number of motor cars and the fourth entry is the number of trailer cars in the consist.

 

[Aictos]

Find the #CAR section. The second entry is the number of motor cars and the fourth entry is the number of trailer cars in the consist.

That's better, exactly what I needed - ta very much,

 

[MCR247]

That's better, exactly what I needed - ta very much,

But surely it'll just feel the same? :? As I agree with 90019 the power to weight ratio will be the same

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Do you mean "Open BVE" ajax103?

 

[Aictos]

Have a look at this thread from BVE Exchange which goes into detail on why I wondering how to correctly get the performance figures right.

Below are two quotes from the link explaining why I'm asking the said question, I try and make any BVE run as realistic as possible which is why I'm asking what I am.

Oddly, it'd never occurred to me to do a double 31, can't think why, among the stuff I played with was a double-66, now that shifts .

One day I must look into the correct values for mutliple units. It's a well-established fact that you can't get 5 times the traction from 5 identical units, although I dare say that with modern controls, you can do better than, for example, in the 50s.

So far, I just guess There's also the issue of braking: you have more wheels and more brakes, but also more weight (from the second engine), and I suspect that overall you don't actually get noticeably more braking - consider that moving light engines it's not uncommon to add a few coaches just to get more braking.

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Just got around to giving it a spin, and I reckon it ought to have a bit more braking. The original consist with the BVE4 31 is for 5 coaches - you've added a loco and 3 more coaches, OK, adding the loco wouldn't make the train stop noticeably better, but the 3 coaches are going to increase the brake force for the train (as distinct from the locos) by about 60%, other things being equal.

So I reckon the maximum braking (which is the only thing you can tweak in BVE) ought to go up by perhaps 30%, maybe 40%. This is of course guesstimate based on saying that the train itself has 60% more brakes (and, for any given rail conditions, 60% more grip) as a result of having 8 coaches instead of 5, but the additional 31, although adding 6 more axles and brakes, also adds a disproportionate amount of weight. Probably 30% is more realistic, at that.

How did you decide on the acceleration figures? It seems to go fairly well

 

[velaro]

It may be true that having five units won't give you five times the traction. But even if it is, you can't simulate the effect simply by changing the number of cars in the train.dat; you'd have to modify the values in the #ACCELERATION section (and possibly some others; see http://www.roman-road.co.uk/temp/tutorial/tutorial-6.html and http://openbve.trainsimcentral.co.uk/develop/train_train_dat.html ).

That said, increasing the number of cars does have certain effects; for instance, this will influence when you can accelerate after passing a sign permitting a higher speed without generating a warning, and of course in openBVE, you will increase the length of the visible exterior.

 

[90019]

Wait, this makes no sense, in terms of acceleration and braking, they should remain completely unchanged.

You have one unit, giving a certain amount of power and weight and having a certain braking force. You have a second unit which is identical. You're saying that by adding them together you can more than double the final result of accelerative and braking forces despite the power to weight ratios and overall braking force being the same.
Logically, this can't be true, and I don't understand where this comes from.

It seems to be a case of 2+2=5, which it obviously doesn't.


(Although, admittedly, 2+2 can equal 5, but that's not the point I was making)

 

[MCR247]

ajax103: If you coupled 5 365s say, it would accelerate/brake 5 times quicker, because the weight of the carriges would cancel it out.

In a 365, you have 4 coaches, and 1 pantograph for every four coaches. Ratio: 1:4
In 2x 365, you have 8 coaches, and 2 pantographs for evry 8 coaches. Ratio: 2:8
In 3x 365, you have 12 coaches, and 3 pantographs for 12 coaches. Ratio: 3:12.

Those ratios are all equal to each other, so you'll get the same performance

 

[velaro]

I'm no engineer and I'm just thinking out loud here, but isn't it possible that connecting several MUs will diminish performance somewhat because each unit's performance is a little different and the control system cannot fully compensate for that?

 

[90019]

I think it's because he's thinking of them like locomotives. If you add a loco to a consist, you get the increase in power and braking power, but it's a completely different thing to MUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm no engineer and I'm just thinking out loud here, but isn't it possible that connecting several MUs will diminish performance somewhat because each unit's performance is a little different and the control system cannot fully compensate for that?

It is possible, but in most cases, I'd guess that the overall effect on the performance would be minimal.


Also, 2000 posts

 

[Wim G.P.R]

Lets put this right you do not get any real difference in performance if you are coupling units of the same class together.

But you do get what is called brake force that's better but still not that different to one unit on it's own.

There is no need to change any config of a bve cab view only as you get only grey boxes in the latest versions of Open.

But what does need changing is the config of the route to have the larger train stopping correctly at the right Stop board for it!

Or use a route that's configured for the length of train you are running.

Sorry but if you want a train to go faster it needs more power and adding units of the same type just gives you the same.

So add extra non prototypical power cars and then the train config needs rewriting!

I hope this is a better version of my last post and it I am wrong I have configured a lot of trains rather incorrectly

I don't think so though!