Proposed new Liverpool & Manchester Railway

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't quite know what to make of this article in the Independent:
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...pool-manchester-train-rail-plan-b2549588.html

It appears to be an announcement by the Metro Mayors of Liverpool City Region and Greater Manchester (Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham) of their plans for a new rail line between Liverpool and Manchester, via Warrington and Manchester Airport.
This was at one time part of the HS2 plan, and has been retained and offered to the Metro Mayors with a budget of £17 billion, which they say DfT has confirmed.
They are talking of a journey time of 25 minutes, with an underground station in Manchester and "improvements to Liverpool Central".
The launch is of a new Liverpool & Manchester Railway company to build the line, announced 200 years after the formation of the original L&M company in 1824.
They are looking for private sector participation in the project.
I still don't know how they will get a high speed alignment Liverpool-Ditton-Widnes, and through central Warrington (Sankey-Thelwall).
The old LNWR alignment was low-grade and sharply curved through Warrington.

On the day a general election has been called, does this sound like a genuine project that won't get dismantled by central government before it gets built?
The wider connection to TRU/NPR across the Pennines is not discussed.

Mr Rotheram said: “It won’t be like HS2 and promise after promise and nothing delivered.
“This is going to happen. We’ve got the budget, we want to increase that but also we genuinely have the best interests of the cities of Liverpool and Manchester and Liverpool city region and Manchester city region at heart.”

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I will of course follow with interest but sounds like NPR in another guise to me.

 

[childwallblues]

Rotheram should stop hanging on to Burnhams coat tails. Building a new line from Liverpool to Manchester Airport whilst he cannot build any form of line to Liverpool Airport is ludicrous. Any benefits from this will be purely in Manchesters favour.

 

[deltic08]

Spending £billions to knock off 5 minutes on the Liverpool-Manchester time is as big waste of money as HS2 when there are so many lines that could be reinstated for that amount giving people a local railhead and opportunity to use rail they don't have now..

 

[Pacef8]

Likely to go the same way as the mersey tidal barge and a reliable tram service.

 

[LPJOHN]

An article in the Liverpool Echo about pos rebuild of Liverpool Central.

Stunning images show massive plans for Liverpool Central Station

First vision of what huge regeneration of station and surrounding area could look like as part of plans to link Liverpool and Manchester with high speed rail

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It will be interesting to see how rail-related aspirational matters such as this will have their place in the pecking order of priorities by whichever party wins the next General Election that is due to be held on 4th July.

 

[Mr. SW]

Pictures without the advertising cack...

New images show Liverpool Central vision - Liverpool Business News

New images show how Liverpool Central station could look if proposed transformation becomes a reality with a new hub offering trains to Manchester Airport taking just 25 minutes

lbndaily.co.uk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both Liverpool Central and Manchester Victoria, the second rated stations in both those two cities hold DfT category "B" status ratings. This new modern design for Liverpool Central station is worthy of 21st century usage, whereas Manchester Victoria seems destined to portray Victoriana unfortunately.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just how much £££ do the consultants "earn" by coming up with / endorsing 'pie in the sky' stuff like this?

 

[Bantamzen]

Just how much £££ do the consultants "earn" by coming up with / endorsing 'pie in the sky' stuff like this?

Ha ha, I was just about to say something similar. Liverpool and Manchester councils won't have anything like enough to finance this project themselves, so instead they hire consultants at rates I assume would make an ordinary person shout at the top of their voices "'Ow much?" to create some pretty renders of what the stations might look like.

Well what other ordinary folk might say is "What a waste of money!".

 

[Trackman]

Rotheram should stop hanging on to Burnhams coat tails. Building a new line from Liverpool to Manchester Airport whilst he cannot build any form of line to Liverpool Airport is ludicrous. Any benefits from this will be purely in Manchesters favour.

Think Burnham has more rail problems closer to home, rather than making daft suggestions like this.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Can anyone explain the route? I assume it is the former LNW line from Ditton Junction by Warrington Bank Quay Low Level, thence Skelton Junction, but how does it get to Manchester Airport then Piccadilly? What happens to the Trans Pennine Trail?

 

[JamesT]

Can anyone explain the route? I assume it is the former LNW line from Ditton Junction by Warrington Bank Quay Low Level, thence Skelton Junction, but how does it get to Manchester Airport then Piccadilly? What happens to the Trans Pennine Trail?

It’s almost certainly the previously proposed NPR route followed by the HS2 alignment into Manchester. I.e the orange and green lines on the map at https://www.railfuture.org.uk/article1879-Liverpool-and-Manchester
As I understand it the NPR bits are upgrading track that’s still in use, so presumably isn’t part of a walking route?

 

[GJMarshy]

Let’s be completely honest here about what this actually is…

It’s a Trojan horse to ensure HS2 can get to Manchester. Nothing more, nothing less. It all hinges on the hope that Labour resurrects 2a/b in some form.

HS2 matters to Manchester far more than NPR economically, however some form of NPR is needed to relieve Castlefield. This isn’t it. It takes one fast service off, that’s all.

GM leaders have obviously made the calculated decision to prioritise HS2 over relieving Castlefield (which was one of the original goals of NPR) This of course raises questions as to how they’re going to solve that problem when £bb have been spent on this project.

Business leaders will be happy, such as MAG and other corporations as it brings HS2 that much closer. I don’t imagine the likes of TfGM will feel the same way. The city will remain a bottleneck for decades with no real possibility for GM to run the S-Bahn style services it desires through the central stations (not forgetting the unending rail chaos Castlefield and associated junction cause for passengers)

The government got what it wanted. It forced the hand of city region leaders and stakeholders to make strategic decisions in their own interest at the expense of other cities and towns.

I’m a Mancunian for the record, but I’m not blind to the political and commercial interests driving policy for something that has become something else entirely (from the perspective of other cities and until/if HS2 is completed):

“Manchester Airport Rapid Access Line”

That’s all this is now.

 

[HSTEd]

Let’s be completely honest here about what this actually is…

It’s a Trojan horse to ensure HS2 can get to Manchester. Nothing more, nothing less. It all hinges on the hope that Labour resurrects 2a/b in some form.

HS2 matters to Manchester far more than NPR economically, however some form of NPR is needed to relieve Castlefield. This isn’t it. It takes one fast service off, that’s all.

GM leaders have obviously made the calculated decision to prioritise HS2 over relieving Castlefield (which was one of the original goals of NPR) This of course raises questions as to how they’re going to solve that problem when £bb have been spent on this project.

Business leaders will be happy, such as MAG and other corporations as it brings HS2 that much closer. I don’t imagine the likes of TfGM will feel the same way. The city will remain a bottleneck for decades with no real possibility for GM to run the S-Bahn style services it desires through the central stations (not forgetting the unending rail chaos Castlefield and associated junction cause for passengers)

The government got what it wanted. It forced the hand of city region leaders and stakeholders to make strategic decisions in their own interest at the expense of other cities and towns.

I’m a Mancunian for the record, but I’m not blind to the political and commercial interests driving policy for something that has become something else entirely (from the perspective of other cities and until/if HS2 is completed):

“Manchester Airport Rapid Access Line”

That’s all this is now.

A fast line to the vicinity of Manchester airport from Piccadilly does do rather more than that.
It now provides a way for trains to use the Mid-Cheshire line to reach Manchester Piccadilly and serve the Airport without using the castlefield corridor.

I make it at least three, the EMR fast to Liverpool, the via Newton-le-Willows fast to Liverpool and the TfW Llandudno train (rerouted via the Mid-cheshire line via a chord near the airport).
Indeed after that you could probably just extend the tram to Mobberley or Ashley and have the line via the Airport take over the entire Mid-Cheshire line service, which will free paths via Stockport.

I'm fairly certain I can fill a significant fraction of the capacity of the line and release paths through the two most important Manchester bottlenecks - Castlefield and Stockport.

EDIT:
Indeed if the station at all resembles what was originally planned for NPR you could lift the entire Transpennine service to Liverpool and route it via the airport instead.

 

[childwallblues]

Think Burnham has more rail problems closer to home, rather than making daft suggestions like this.

Correct. Burnham neglects passengers travelling on Class 150/156 and 323 on trains from Piccadilly to Hadfield, Rose Hill, Stoke-on-Trent, Huddersfield and the GM part of the Mid Cheshire. Then out of Victoria you have stations up to Rochdale and along the old L & Y R mainline to Wigan Wallgate and beyond. All these lines are neglected by Burnhams brigade.

 

[The Planner]

Just how much £££ do the consultants "earn" by coming up with / endorsing 'pie in the sky' stuff like this?

The going rate. Just because they are consultants doesn't mean they aren't just doing a job that whoever is paying them cannot do or has the resource for.

 

[stephen rp]

NB that's 25 minutes Liverpool to Manchester Airport. Add at least 7 minutes to Piccadilly.

It might help if this thread didn't get cluttered with all the speculative and wishlist ideas (like a link from Mobberley to the airport station, tunnelling under the runways).

There is obviously an opportunity cost to doing this but they haven't said what the cost would be (only that the DfT is allocating £17bn, just before an election). The Liverpool-Manchester bit of NPR was previously described as a poor business case, even with the cost of tunnel from the airport to Piccadilly borne by HS2. No mention of a tunnel at all here, but added cost of an underground station at Manchester, and flashy new stations at Liverpool and Warrington (and the airport station was not in the HS2 budget).

The comments in the Place North West version of the story don't sound as if people are convinced.

UKREiiF | Full steam ahead for Liverpool-Manchester Railway Board - Place North West

“History is truly being made this morning,” said Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, as he addressed a crowded room at the Royal Armouries in Leeds on Wednesday.

www.placenorthwest.co.uk

 

[8A Rail]

Why they just do a simple and quick thing which would be appreciated, have more impact and cost a hell of a lot less money to implement by just increasing the stopper service on the Liverpool and Manchester line to every half hour! What is so difficult in doing that than rather go off on a proposed scheme that will cost Millions and Millions and probably not get off the ground. Our local politicians have certainly lost touch with the everyday world of existing people's needs!

An article in the Liverpool Echo about pos rebuild of Liverpool Central.

Stunning images show massive plans for Liverpool Central Station

First vision of what huge regeneration of station and surrounding area could look like as part of plans to link Liverpool and Manchester with high speed rail

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

How does that link up with the plans for the Liverpool Baltic Station then and the existing Merseyrail (ex CLC) lines then. Jointed up thinking by politicians yet again (NOT)!!!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It might help if this thread didn't get cluttered with all the speculative and wishlist ideas (like a link from Mobberley to the airport station, tunnelling under the runways).

Remember that this is a thread on the "Speculative Discussion" forum.

 

[GJMarshy]

The major concern here is it ends up being a cobbled together line to dogmatically meet the objectives (connect Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington & Manchester Airport). It might tick those boxes but be of such a poor design spec that any journey time benefits are lost, and most intercity services remain on the faster existing Chat Moss route, doing little to relieve congestion through Manchester.

If it really must go via Manchester Airport, it *must* be done properly. That means HSR spec all the way, including provision for a connection to HS2. This will include (but not limited to):

-New platforms at Lime Street (Possibly in southern train shed on site of existing taxi rank)
-Tunnel (7km) out of Liverpool to Belle Vale close to the M62
-Sub surface station east (and connected to) Warrington Bank Quay. 2 platforms with passing tracks. 2km tunnelled approaches either side.
-Provision for a junction with HS2 at High Leigh retained.
-4 400m platforms at Manchester Airport
-Tunnel from airport to Piccadilly
-Underground through station at Piccadilly (4-6 400m through Platforms)
-Tunnel (2km) out of piccadilly to connect to the existing transpennine route near Collyhurst
-Provision for a new transpennine line (HS3) retained near Collyhurst



Personally though, in the interest of actually delivering the extra capacity through Manchester the north so desperately needs, I'd much rather see more targeted investments such as a Castlefield Bypass Tunnel via Piccadilly, an upgraded Chat Moss, electrification of Hope Valley & a through station in Bradford.

 

[stephen rp]

Remember that this is a thread on the "Speculative Discussion" forum.

Most of HS2 ended up as "speculative".

I meant to keep this speculative thread to speculation about this project rather than throw in speculation about what else you could do with £17bn (which as it happens was the budget for HS2b Crewe to Manchester).

 

[HSTEd]

Personally though, in the interest of actually delivering the extra capacity through Manchester the north so desperately needs, I'd much rather see more targeted investments such as a Castlefield Bypass Tunnel via Piccadilly, an upgraded Chat Moss, electrification of Hope Valley & a through station in Bradford.

An "upgraded" Chat Moss and a Castlefield Bypass basically mutates into this scheme!

There is no practical way to get more capacity on Chat Moss short of slowing it way down.

 

[stephen rp]

The major concern here is it ends up being a cobbled together line to dogmatically meet the objectives (connect Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington & Manchester Airport). It might tick those boxes but be of such a poor design spec that any journey time benefits are lost, and most intercity services remain on the faster existing Chat Moss route, doing little to relieve congestion through Manchester.

If it really must go via Manchester Airport, it *must* be done properly. That means HSR spec all the way, including provision for a connection to HS2. This will include (but not limited to):

-New platforms at Lime Street (Possibly in southern train shed on site of existing taxi rank)
-Tunnel (7km) out of Liverpool to Belle Vale close to the M62
-Sub surface station east (and connected to) Warrington Bank Quay. 2 platforms with passing tracks. 2km tunnelled approaches either side.
-Provision for a junction with HS2 at High Leigh retained.
-4 400m platforms at Manchester Airport
-Tunnel from airport to Piccadilly
-Underground through station at Piccadilly (4-6 400m through Platforms)
-Tunnel (2km) out of piccadilly to connect to the existing transpennine route near Collyhurst
-Provision for a new transpennine line (HS3) retained near Collyhurst

View attachment 158630

Personally though, in the interest of actually delivering the extra capacity through Manchester the north so desperately needs, I'd much rather see more targeted investments such as a Castlefield Bypass Tunnel via Piccadilly, an upgraded Chat Moss, electrification of Hope Valley & a through station in Bradford.

See what I mean? That's probably trebled the cost...

 

[Esker-pades]

Liverpool to Manchester to <TransPennine Connection Location> High Speed was specifically protected in the #NetworkNorth announcement. This is hardly new

 

[GJMarshy]

An "upgraded" Chat Moss and a Castlefield Bypass basically mutates into this scheme!

There is no practical way to get more capacity on Chat Moss short of slowing it way down.

ERTMS signalling would go a long way to ensure a 3-4tph fast service between the two cities (calling at Huyton/NLW) with room for 1-2 stoppers. It's no silver bullet, but it's an improvement capacity wise even if tourney times remain between 35 & 40mins. What counts is reliability and the ability of people to get a seat. A Castlefield Bypass (Salford to Ardwick via Piccadilly) would take significant pressure off Castlefield by removing almost all the fast services.

It won't do a huge amount for journey times, but it would improve frequency, reliability & outright capacity. Things that matter the most to the majority of people.

 

[frodshamfella]

Rotheram should stop hanging on to Burnhams coat tails. Building a new line from Liverpool to Manchester Airport whilst he cannot build any form of line to Liverpool Airport is ludicrous. Any benefits from this will be purely in Manchesters favour.

Quite agree, Liverpool Airport is booming, and he is ignoring his own remit .

 

[AlastairFraser]

Quite agree, Liverpool Airport is booming, and he is ignoring his own remit .

Thing is that a new line could potentially allow more suburban services out of Lime St towards Liverpool South Parkway and that area, especially if they use the Wapping Tunnel to head towards Liverpool Central.

 

[frodshamfella]

Thing is that a new line could potentially allow more suburban services out of Lime St towards Liverpool South Parkway and that area, especially if they use the Wapping Tunnel to head towards Liverpool Central.

Yes it could, but nothing mentioned about that. Liverpool airport needs a tram connection from South Parkway or better still a Merseyrail line and station. This is more important than another station for Manchester Airport , and adopting this expensive routing, when really what is needed it connecting cities.