Proposed new Liverpool & Manchester Railway

[HSTEd]

Yes it could, but nothing mentioned about that. Liverpool airport needs a tram connection from South Parkway or better still a Merseyrail line and station. This is more important than another station for Manchester Airport , and adopting this expensive routing, when really what is needed it connecting cities.

I'm not sure a line not going to Manchester Airport is really going to be much cheaper than one going to Manchester Airport.

Whichever way you leave Manchester is going to require a long length of tunnel.

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm not sure a line not going to Manchester Airport is really going to be much cheaper than one going to Manchester Airport.

Whichever way you leave Manchester is going to require a long length of tunnel.

This option is 17 billion, a more direct route im sure would be be less

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes it could, but nothing mentioned about that. Liverpool airport needs a tram connection from South Parkway or better still a Merseyrail line and station. This is more important than another station for Manchester Airport , and adopting this expensive routing, when really what is needed it connecting cities.

The routing isn't expensive compared to the alternatives. For more intercity capacity, you do need a mostly new or reused route.
A Merseyrail extension from Hunts Cross to the airport could well happen as well as this project.

This option is 17 billion, a more direct route im sure would be be less

Removing Manchester Airport (as much as I despise the place) would remove a major traffic objective, and fail to relieve the Styal line (which would mean no increase in frequency for south Manchester or no removal of several Manchester Airport terminators from Castlefield as others have mentioned).

 

[HSTEd]

This option is 17 billion, a more direct route im sure would be be less

Not that much less, the line from central Manchester to Warrington is about 25km, versus about 33km to the airport station site.

Either way you need about 11km of tunnel to get out of central Manchester.
ANd in exchange for bypassing the airport you sacrifice a major load centre and eliminate substantial connectivity.

 

[frodshamfella]

The routing isn't expensive compared to the alternatives. For more intercity capacity, you do need a mostly new or reused route.
A Merseyrail extension from Hunts Cross to the airport could well happen as well as this project.


Removing Manchester Airport (as much as I despise the place) would remove a major traffic objective, and fail to relieve the Styal line (which would mean no increase in frequency for south Manchester or no removal of several Manchester Airport terminators from Castlefield as others have mentioned).

Not according to the Mayor, who says its too expensive , would take too much time, and too built up. Which it isn't if you come to the airport from the easterly direction, its mainly farmland. Plus you can give Speke estate some decent transport at last.

Not that much less, the line from central Manchester to Warrington is about 25km, versus about 33km to the airport station site.

Either way you need about 11km of tunnel to get out of central Manchester.
ANd in exchange for bypassing the airport you sacrifice a major load centre and eliminate substantial connectivity.

Doesn't this extra Manchester Airport tunnel need a tunnel too ? I don't think its going to be actually that close to the airport either.

 

[HSTEd]

Doesn't this extra Manchester Airport tunnel need a tunnel too ? I don't think its going to be actually that close to the airport either.

You might need a few hundred metres of extra tunnel, but not very much at all.

It's about the same distance in either direction to get out of the city.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone outside this website see the matter of what the thread concerns itself about featuring in the constituencies along the line of this aspirational railway featuring as a major topic in the run up to the next General Election or will the candidates see other matters far more to the concerns of the electorate at large?

 

[Nottingham59]

This option is 17 billion, a more direct route im sure would be be less

Yes, it would be less. The HS2 route from Piccadilly to Davenport Green near the Airport requires around 16km of curved twin bore tunnel. Victoria to Chat Moss, around 8km; Victoria to Carrington Moss around 6km. Assuming there is still space in Salford for a portal.

 

[CdBrux]

To me this only makes sense if the end goal is a revival of, at a minimum, the previous IRP.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, it would be less. The HS2 route from Piccadilly to Davenport Green near the Airport requires around 16km of curved twin bore tunnel. Victoria to Chat Moss, around 8km; Victoria to Carrington Moss around 6km. Assuming there is still space in Salford for a portal.

I don't see any really practical site for a portal in Salford, the railway is closely surrounded by highly built up urban terrain and has numerous road bridges and underbridges that make a dive into a tunnel problematic at best.

Nevermind that a line to Victoria doesn't really relieve any of the major pinch points on the Manchester railway system.

 

[childwallblues]

Yes it could, but nothing mentioned about that. Liverpool airport needs a tram connection from South Parkway or better still a Merseyrail line and station. This is more important than another station for Manchester Airport , and adopting this expensive routing, when really what is needed it connecting cities.

That is what I have beeen saying on other threads. A new line from Allerton to Central Speke via the Airport connected to the Northern Line.

 

[frodshamfella]

That is what I have beeen saying on other threads. A new line from Allerton to Central Speke via the Airport connected to the Northern Line.

And to my mind that would be far.more beneficial than building an unnecessary extra link via Manchester Airport which is already well served . Liverpool Airport' is not as well blessed with surface transport and is growing rapidly , Manchester Airport has no more overnight aircraft stand space, Liverpool Airport will be needed more, and therefore, public transport needs enhancing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not according to the Mayor, who says its too expensive , would take too much time, and too built up. Which it isn't if you come to the airport from the easterly direction, its mainly farmland. Plus you can give Speke estate some decent transport at last.

That may change, especially if any of the seats become marginals mid-Parliamentary term in the next Labour government (entirely possible with South Liverpool).
The Liv-Manchester plan certainly doesn't preclude it being reopened.

 

[HSTEd]

And to my mind that would be far.more beneficial than building an unnecessary extra link via Manchester Airport which is already well served . Liverpool Airport' is not as well blessed with surface transport and is growing rapidly , Manchester Airport has no more overnight aircraft stand space, Liverpool Airport will be needed more, and therefore, public transport needs enhancing.

Using the stats pulled from the respective wikipedia articles for 2023, Liverpool Airport is still ~17% down on 2019 figures however, whereas the figure for Manchester AIrport is ~4.5%

Passenger numbers at the former are around a seventh those at the latter.
I'm not sure the two airports are really comparable in terms of importance or need for high capacity public transport.

 

[Topological]

And to my mind that would be far.more beneficial than building an unnecessary extra link via Manchester Airport which is already well served . Liverpool Airport' is not as well blessed with surface transport and is growing rapidly , Manchester Airport has no more overnight aircraft stand space, Liverpool Airport will be needed more, and therefore, public transport needs enhancing.

Those stand availability issues may be true, but the key is that Manchester handles the widebody aircraft such as the A380, Boeing 777 and the newer larger Airbus single deckers. These are the planes that carry the people that need the connection to Manchester Aiport.

To think that both Liverpool and Manchester could support direct flights on the routes that use these widebodies is somewhat fanciful.

Far better to give all in the North an easy connection to Manchester Airport and focus air traffic there. Ryanair can always leave Manchester Airport if they really feel it is constrained (they wont).

I think that to make sense, any Liverpool to Manchester route has to take in the proposed HS2 tunnel.

 

[Ben427]

Manchester airport has tons of capacity. The idea that Liverpool could ever compete for any major international connections is absurd.

Liverpool, like Leeds Bradford, should concentrate on low cost short haul.

 

[8A Rail]

Manchester airport has tons of capacity. The idea that Liverpool could ever compete for any major international connections is absurd.

Liverpool, like Leeds Bradford, should concentrate on low cost short haul.

But it does already and what it does best too. That will not change.

I see no point what so ever in providing any high peed link between the two cities or even Man Airport if there is only one / two stopping points along the way, as still means many many people in the between places still got to use 'normal' modes of transport to get to those locations anyway. There is NO benefit what so ever in building such a railway, it is fanciful, better to spend any money that may be on offer improving and expanding what we got already as is that needs the money, consequently more people benefit in both cities and surroundings areas.

 

[stephen rp]

7

Using the stats pulled from the respective wikipedia articles for 2023, Liverpool Airport is still ~17% down on 2019 figures however, whereas the figure for Manchester AIrport is ~4.5%

Passenger numbers at the former are around a seventh those at the latter.
I'm not sure the two airports are really comparable in terms of importance or need for high capacity public transport.

Jet2 flying from Liverpool now. Numbers will be back to pre-Covid.

 

[OutdoorM]

Pictures without the advertising cack...

New images show Liverpool Central vision - Liverpool Business News

New images show how Liverpool Central station could look if proposed transformation becomes a reality with a new hub offering trains to Manchester Airport taking just 25 minutes

lbndaily.co.uk

The images appear to be just bland, nom descript placeholder images.

They show a train station concourse and buildings, but non of the nearby buildings nor street names to demonstrate how it would fit into the cityscape.

A very poor effort

 

[frodshamfella]

Those stand availability issues may be true, but the key is that Manchester handles the widebody aircraft such as the A380, Boeing 777 and the newer larger Airbus single deckers. These are the planes that carry the people that need the connection to Manchester Aiport.

To think that both Liverpool and Manchester could support direct flights on the routes that use these widebodies is somewhat fanciful.

Far better to give all in the North an easy connection to Manchester Airport and focus air traffic there. Ryanair can always leave Manchester Airport if they really feel it is constrained (they wont).

I think that to make sense, any Liverpool to Manchester route has to take in the proposed HS2 tunnel.

It's not needed , Manchester already has rail and tram. Liverpool has neither, and needs better public transport links. Liverpool City and Airport is.getting the raw.deal here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not needed , Manchester already has rail and tram. Liverpool has neither, and needs better public transport links. Liverpool City and Airport is.getting the raw. Deal here.

On the other hand, Liverpool does have a cross-river ferry service and an excellant tunnelled connectional underground city railway system that Manchester does not have.

 

[frodshamfella]

7

Jet2 flying from Liverpool now. Numbers will be back to pre-Covid.

Manchester airport has tons of capacity. The idea that Liverpool could ever compete for any major international connections is absurd.

Liverpool, like Leeds Bradford, should concentrate on low cost short haul.

It does not, there is no space left for over night parking, only space is at off peak times

But it does already and what it does best too. That will not change.

I see no point what so ever in providing any high peed link between the two cities or even Man Airport if there is only one / two stopping points along the way, as still means many many people in the between places still got to use 'normal' modes of transport to get to those locations anyway. There is NO benefit what so ever in building such a railway, it is fanciful, better to spend any money that may be on offer improving and expanding what we got already as is that needs the money, consequently more people benefit in both cities and surroundings areas.

Most people would be.happy if reliability and capacity on what we have was good, it's far from it

Using the stats pulled from the respective wikipedia articles for 2023, Liverpool Airport is still ~17% down on 2019 figures however, whereas the figure for Manchester AIrport is ~4.5%

Passenger numbers at the former are around a seventh those at the latter.
I'm not sure the two airports are really comparable in terms of importance or need for high capacity public transport.

Liverpool is 19 % up this March as opposed to last March it will easily handle 5 million this year. Jet2 have just announced yesterday more expansion at Liverpool. It just does not seem at all fair here that it's all about Manchester Airport which is already well connected. Waste of money.

But it does already and what it does best too. That will not change.

I see no point what so ever in providing any high peed link between the two cities or even Man Airport if there is only one / two stopping points along the way, as still means many many people in the between places still got to use 'normal' modes of transport to get to those locations anyway. There is NO benefit what so ever in building such a railway, it is fanciful, better to spend any money that may be on offer improving and expanding what we got already as is that needs the money, consequently more people benefit in both cities and surroundings areas.

It's true many won't find this easy to use. I live in Cheshire, would never use it,.nowhere handy to board

 

[Topological]

@frodshamfella you are coming across as a bitter Liverpool supporter who cannot accept that there can be only one regional airport for long-haul destinations.

IF Manchester is at capacity then they will be telling some of the operators of smaller planes to go to another airport (maybe Liverpool, that is the airlines decision) to make capacity for more profitable long-haul routes. Manchester is nowhere near its potential for throughput of passengers.

IF we want the North West to be better connected and stand independent from London then Manchester Airport is where global connectivity has to be concentrated (note Global not European). I want that and it seems there are indeed some posters from Liverpool who also see that connection to Manchester is what will help Liverpool most.

Its really petty that in the 21st century the North West cities do not work together.

 

[MPW]

Edit: Self-moderated

 

[SynthD]

I see no point what so ever in providing any high peed link between the two cities or even Man Airport if there is only one / two stopping points along the way, as still means many many people in the between places still got to use 'normal' modes of transport to get to those locations anyway.

That is the normal setup for lines built for extra capacity.

 

[8A Rail]

That is the normal setup for lines built for extra capacity.

Extra capacity can be simply provided by increasing the frequency of the present rail service between Liverpool and Manchester, for far far less cost, immediate impact and serve far far more people.

Likewise living in outer Liverpool, please tell me what benefit I would get in a hi speed link between the two cities and / or Manchester Airport in consequence, I would never use it, just like many others. Just remember the majority of the people do NOT live in the centres of each city, they are spread out over a very large area, so creating a hi-speed link consequently serving the 'few' people!

Again, I would just like a simple thing like a half stopper frequency between the two cities on the L&M line. Is it really that hard, it seems to be yet politicians come up with fanciful ideas like this, again they are far removed from the real world!

 

[stephen rp]

Completely speculative... I like the idea the green party had a few years ago to close London City Airport and develop the land.

If Liverpool airport was closed the redevelopment could be used to fund the NPR route. This could be valuable mixed used area with very fast connection to Manchester and Liverpool (assuming station added on the new route). Liverpool air passengers would only be a short journey from Manchester Airport on new connection, which could in turn be expanded to become a better connected regional hub by absorbing Liverpool former routes.

The new districts hs station doesn't haven't to be exactly on the route if it adds too much extra cost, although completell redevelopment of the area does make cut and cover a possibility for some of it. A people mover or #monorail# could do the job

Yeah sure. Close Liverpool Airport and then put a station there (still with no obvious route).

7m extra passengers through Manchester airport.

Please can the thread be kept remotely sensible?

 

[daodao]

Yet another grandiose, profligate and unaffordable iteration of NPR.

 

[frodshamfella]

@frodshamfella you are coming across as a bitter Liverpool supporter who cannot accept that there can be only one regional airport for long-haul destinations.

IF Manchester is at capacity then they will be telling some of the operators of smaller planes to go to another airport (maybe Liverpool, that is the airlines decision) to make capacity for more profitable long-haul routes. Manchester is nowhere near its potential for throughput of passengers.

IF we want the North West to be better connected and stand independent from London then Manchester Airport is where global connectivity has to be concentrated (note Global not European). I want that and it seems there are indeed some posters from Liverpool who also see that connection to Manchester is what will help Liverpool most.

Its really petty that in the 21st century the North West cities do not work together.

Not at all, what is the fixation on long haul, Manchester will only attract a certain amount of long haul, the vast majority will always be at Heathrow. Liverpool is a world known city and deserves to be connected better for inbound tourists, plus passengers from the NW and the wider area. We want to NW better connected, but it doesn't have to be just at Manchester Airport.

It would make more sense to electrify the CLC which is far more a direct route to Manchester, station at Widnes and Warrington, build a tunnel under Manchester to get to Piccadilly then continue east. I thought that was what NPR was about. A spur could leave around Halewood, to serve Hale, Speke and the airport. This is what Manchester Airport already has.

Completely speculative... I like the idea the green party had a few years ago to close London City Airport and develop the land.

If Liverpool airport was closed the redevelopment could be used to fund the NPR route. This could be valuable mixed used area with very fast connection to Manchester and Liverpool (assuming station added on the new route). Liverpool air passengers would only be a short journey from Manchester Airport on new connection, which could in turn be expanded to become a better connected regional hub by absorbing Liverpool former routes.

The new districts hs station doesn't haven't to be exactly on the route if it adds too much extra cost, although completell redevelopment of the area does make cut and cover a possibility for some of it. A people mover or #monorail# could do the job

except Manchester has no room for the based aircraft at Liverpool Airport.

 

[Topological]

Not at all, what is the fixation on long haul, Manchester will only attract a certain amount of long haul, the vast majority will always be at Heathrow. Liverpool is a world known city and deserves to be connected better for inbound tourists, plus passengers from the NW and the wider area. We want to NW better connected, but it doesn't have to be just at Manchester Airport.

It would make more sense to electrify the CLC which is far more a direct route to Manchester, station at Widnes and Warrington, build a tunnel under Manchester to get to Piccadilly then continue east. I thought that was what NPR was about. A spur could leave around Halewood, to serve Hale, Speke and the airport. This is what Manchester Airport already has.


except Manchester has no room for the based aircraft at Liverpool Airport.

Long-haul is part of the global economy, therefore it is natural that if we want to have a redistribution away from London we cannot just focus in Heathrow. It should also be remembered that Heathrow is at capacity. Again, this all sounds like jealousy that there is demand for flights between New York, Beijing, Hong Kong, Singapore, Atlanta, the Middle East and Africa every day (including 3 Emirates A380s per day) at Manchester. That is not Heathrow, that is Manchester. There are then cities like Shanghai, Bangkok, San Francisco and others which are expected soon.

People in Liverpool probably do want connections to those flights, and Manchester is much easier than Heathrow from Liverpool.

Certainly Liverpool business will want those connections from the long-haul.

Put your head in the sand if you like, but really short-haul needs toning down for more sustainable alternatives and long-haul then becomes the only air game in town.

Not connecting Liverpool to Manchester Airport in a fast way would be a big big mistake.