No smoking: Penalty £50 maximum

[nw1]

Who remembers this style of "no smoking" sticker from the later years of BR? Within a small red circle with a cigarette icon.

It appears that it was applied, from new, across a wide time period from the newest VEPs in 1974 to the 442s in 1988, and everything in between. They also appeared on older (pre-1974) stock as smoking carriages were increasingly converted to non-smoking.

Furthermore, these stickers remained in place on the ex-SR slammers for as long as they were in service, so right up to 2004. Later stock however had the stickers replaced sometime around then.

The question of course is, that it's unlikely that the fine for smoking remained at £50 from 1974 right through to 2004.

If someone was fined for smoking on an ex-SR slammer, for example, in 2004, could they claim that they should only pay £50 (even though it was potentially much more) because the stickers on the windows indicated that?

 

[swt_passenger]

I think back then all sorts of fines (not just railway) did stay the same for many years irrespective of inflationary pressures, and you’d only ever pay what was on the signs or notices.

A more recent idea was that offences would cross refer to some sort of standard scale, without mentioning a specific figure.

 

[WesternLancer]

Who remembers this style of "no smoking" sticker from the later years of BR? Within a small red circle with a cigarette icon.

It appears that it was applied, from new, across a wide time period from the newest VEPs in 1974 to the 442s in 1988, and everything in between. They also appeared on older (pre-1974) stock as smoking carriages were increasingly converted to non-smoking.

Furthermore, these stickers remained in place on the ex-SR slammers for as long as they were in service, so right up to 2004. Later stock however had the stickers replaced sometime around then.

The question of course is, that it's unlikely that the fine for smoking remained at £50 from 1974 right through to 2004.

If someone was fined for smoking on an ex-SR slammer, for example, in 2004, could they claim that they should only pay £50 (even though it was potentially much more) because the stickers on the windows indicated that?

I very much recall them from right throughout my childhood and youth in the 70s and 80s. But interestingly found it hard to find an image of one on line with a quick search

I did find this example on e-bay that is the same format - but that details a fine of £10 so no idea when it dates from - hope the link works

British Rail Carriage No Smoking Sign | eBay

Genuine signs produced for British Rail. Early type of No Smoking sign used in coaches,double sided,applied to windows. In excellent condition, as new, been in secure dry storage.

www.ebay.co.uk

Like the 'pull the alarm, penalty for improper use' signs that I also recall had a sum detailed - they must have been designed and implemented before 1970s inflation took off....

I assume the sum was detailed in some sort of by laws, so I doubt it would have been possible to have levied a fine of a greater sum than that shown towards the end of their period of use - so I also assumed the sum did remain £50. Would be interested if others know differently. I never heard of anyone being fined but maybe it did happen, presumably it did.

Using the bank of England's inflation calculator on line - £50 in £1974 equates to about £262 in 2004 (and £451 in 2024) - so it would have seemed like a hefty sum when 1st shown on the signs

Inflation calculator

Use our inflation calculator to check how prices in the UK have changed over time, from 1209 to now.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

Unlike the triangular no smoking signs on the older 4 CIGs that did not have a sum on them, which I also recall from the period

Were any of these signs fitted between the panes of double glazed windows, or am I just imagining this? I recall ones that got vandalized as you could seemingly scratch them with a coin or a key - they must have been on the interior surface of the glass, and much stock was single glazed then anyway.

 

[The exile]

I very much recall them from right throughout my childhood and youth in the 70s and 80s. But interestingly found it hard to find an image of one on line with a quick search

I did find this example on e-bay that is the same format - but that details a fine of £10 so no idea when it dates from - hope the link works

British Rail Carriage No Smoking Sign | eBay

Genuine signs produced for British Rail. Early type of No Smoking sign used in coaches,double sided,applied to windows. In excellent condition, as new, been in secure dry storage.

www.ebay.co.uk

Like the 'pull the alarm, penalty for improper use' signs that I also recall had a sum detailed - they must have been designed and implemented before 1970s inflation took off....

I assume the sum was detailed in some sort of by laws, so I doubt it would have been possible to have levied a fine of a greater sum than that shown towards the end of their period of use - so I also assumed the sum did remain £50. Would be interested if others know differently. I never heard of anyone being fined but maybe it did happen, presumably it did.

Using the bank of England's inflation calculator on line - £50 in £1974 equates to about £262 in 2004 (and £451 in 2024) - so it would have seemed like a hefty sum when 1st shown on the signs

Inflation calculator

Use our inflation calculator to check how prices in the UK have changed over time, from 1209 to now.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

Unlike the triangular no smoking signs on the older 4 CIGs that did not have a sum on them, which I also recall from the period

Were any of these signs fitted between the panes of double glazed windows, or am I just imagining this? I recall ones that got vandalized as you could seemingly scratch them with a coin or a key - they must have been on the interior surface of the glass, and much stock was single glazed then anyway.

Fairly certain that on double glazed stock on-smoking and first class signs were the filling in the sandwich.

 

[LowLevel]

The amount of fine on the sticker or notice refers to the standard scale of fines on conviction at the time of issue and doesn't actually reflect the fine a court might impose - the current standard for the offence is used. Some active railway signage still shows pre-decimal sums.

 

[D6700]

Here's one - this photo was taken just a few minutes ago, as it is on a door at home, along with the non-matching Private sign!

Many years ago, I used to receive occasional stickers like these from someone who worked at York carriage works.

 

[The exile]

Here's one - this photo was taken just a few minutes ago, as it is on a door at home, along with the non-matching Private sign!

Many years ago, I used to receive occasional stickers like these from someone who worked at York carriage works.

That’s not the standard window sticker which was red with white lettering.

 

[WesternLancer]

That’s not the standard window sticker which was red with white lettering.

quite a good selection of labels from the era here (inc red disk no smoking and also alarm chain)

British Rail sticker: First Class, No Smoking, Do not flush the toilet etc., | eBay

We have a selection of British Rail signs for sale. Price is per single sticker. These are genuine and are permanent if you use heat to stick them onto a wall or window.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

I never really understood why the fine wasn't set as £50 minimum, rather than £50 maximum.

Obviously the value of £50 then was more than it is now due to inflation, but in theory someone with the money could just smoke and flout the rules on payment of £50.

 

[nw1]

I never really understood why the fine wasn't set as £50 minimum, rather than £50 maximum.

Obviously the value of £50 then was more than it is now due to inflation, but in theory someone with the money could just smoke and flout the rules on payment of £50.

To be fair, in 1974 £50 was probably a big deal, as remarked above.

Much less so in 2004 when the same labels were still present, of course.

Unlike the triangular no smoking signs on the older 4 CIGs that did not have a sum on them, which I also recall from the period

Were any of these signs fitted between the panes of double glazed windows, or am I just imagining this? I recall ones that got vandalized as you could seemingly scratch them with a coin or a key - they must have been on the interior surface of the glass, and much stock was single glazed then anyway.

Thanks for all the messages, interesting to hear that the £50 may still have applied to the end.

I also remember the triangular signs, though on the SWD we only had newer CIGs, so I associated them with the older VEPs.

There was also a third variety, a large round "No smoking" sign (with no penalty also) which was present on the CIGs and the middle-generation VEPs - so this would be units introduced around 1970-72. This was also present in aircon Mk-IIs, presumably around the same age.

Mk-IIIs had the "No smoking - penalty £50 maximum" from new, by the looks of things.

BTW does anyone remember a "No smoking - penalty £200 maximum" variant (same design)? I swear I saw this somewhere - but not sure where - probably in the early 90s.

The very newest BR stock (e.g. 158s, Turbos) used a different style: a rectangular dark-green label with a white cigarette icon, "No smoking", but no penalty figure.

 

[edwin_m]

There was also the roundel in the window of Underground trains with "NO SMOKING" on the blue band.

When did the change happen from smoking not being allowed except where there was a "SMOKING" sign, to the other way round?