Non-linear Return Ticket Validity

[saismee]

Ipswich - Diss - Norwich

I am planning a trip with a few friends soon to Norwich. I live at Diss and one of them will be travelling from Ipswich, his first time travelling by train. I'd like to help guide him at Ipswich to ensure he gets to the right destination. What type of ticket could I use for this journey? More specifically, what are the rules for using return tickets in the wrong order?

If I had an Anytime Day Return ticket from Norwich to Ipswich, could I then use it as:
Diss -> Ipswich (outbound portion)
Ipswich -> Norwich (return portion)
Norwich -> Diss (outbound portion)

Each station is only passed through one time by doing this, but can I even use the outbound ticket after the return one? I definitely expect to have to explain my ticket usage to the guard.

(Not the actual stations, just examples)

 

[jfollows]

I can’t cope with this A, B, C stuff, but you can’t use the return half of a return ticket first, no.

You need two separate return tickets for what I guess you want to do. And use them in order.

 

[saismee]

I can’t cope with this A, B, C stuff, but you can’t use the return half of a return ticket first, no.

You need two separate return tickets for what I guess you want to do. And use them in order.

I've edited the post to use actual station names to simplify it slightly.

It would probably be cheaper to do Diss to Ipswich single and then Ipswich to Norwich return and end my journey short (for the actual stations).

 

[jfollows]

Diss-Ipswich & Diss-Norwich return tickets, then. Probably not too different in price. Ipswich-Norwich leg must stop at Diss.

Your other idea works, too, and removes the stopping restriction also.

To use the outbound portion of a return ticket you must be able to show the unused return portion of the ticket.

 

[transportphoto]

Have a look at an Anglia Plus Day Ranger. Haven’t looked at prices but it’ll definitely cover what you need.

If I had an Anytime Day Return ticket from Norwich to Ipswich, could I then use it as:
Diss -> Ipswich (outbound portion)
Ipswich -> Norwich (return portion)
Norwich -> Diss (outbound portion)

No. You cannot do this. Once the return portion is used, the outward has no more validity.

I realise the note of “not the actual stations” - it becomes very difficult to give fares advice in response to vague questions!

 

[saismee]

I realise the note of “not the actual stations” - it becomes very difficult to give fares advice in response to vague questions!

Don't worry about the fares. The actual stations are quite close together so the cost difference isn't all that much. It was more about the simplicity of buying one ticket.

7.3 The outward part of an Anytime Return ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by an unused return part of the same ticket.

Thank you both for the info. Sometimes reading through the terms is complicated, but knowing what to actually look for makes it much easier to find the relevant terms.

Have a look at an Anglia Plus Day Ranger. Haven’t looked at prices but it’ll definitely cover what you need.

The Anglia Plus Day Ranger is definitely great. Had a long journey covering most of the western part of it. Felixstowe -> Ipswich -> Ely -> Cambridge (GN peak time, worst experience known to man) -> Ely -> Norwich (EMR) -> Ipswich. It was 25.60 at the time, but I think it's 28.50-ish now.
EDIT: It's 29.70 now

 

[Mcr Warrior]

EDIT: It's 29.70 now

Compared with Diss->Ipswich £18.10 (Off Peak Day Return) and Diss->Norwich £14.00 (Off Peak Day Return). Or maybe not, as the case may be, depending on where the stations actually are.

(Using the price of Off Peak Day Returns so as to be more comparable with the Anglia Plus Day Ranger).

 

[saismee]

Compared with Diss->Ipswich £18.10 (Off Peak Day Return) and Diss->Norwich £14.00 (Off Peak Day Return). Or maybe not, as the case may be, depending on where the stations actually are.

(Using the price of Off Peak Day Returns so as to be more comparable with the Anglia Plus Day Ranger).

(Not the actual stations, just examples)

The actual stations are much cheaper to travel between, I just couldn't think of any comparable ones.

 

[Belperpete]

It may be true that the outward portion is no longer valid once the return portion is used, but is this ever enforced? I have never had anyone ask to see my return ticket when checking the outward portion. Is there even any requirement to carry the return portion with you when making the outward journey?

Unless break of journey is prohibited by the type of ticket, you are quite entitled to use your outward ticket to travel from Diss, rather than from Norwich, to Ipswich. This is termed starting short. You can then use the return portion to travel the full journey back from Ipswich to Norwich. I do this kind of thing fairly frequently.

What you cannot then do is to use the outward portion for a second journey. If your outward ticket were "clipped" for your Diss to Ipswich journey, that would be it. If you then tried to use it for Norwich to Diss, it would be rejected as it would look like you were trying to make a second Norwich to Ipswich journey.

You would be okay if your first journey were Norwich to Diss, and you then travelled Diss to Ipswich, as that would be break of journey at Diss.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there even any requirement to carry the return portion with you when making the outward journey?

Yes. Example from the terms and conditions of an Off Peak Return:

5.3 The outward part of an Off-Peak Day and Super Off-Peak Day Return ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by an unused return part of the same ticket.

Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on National Rail services. These are cheaper fares for travelling on trains that are less busy.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

It may be true that the outward portion is no longer valid once the return portion is used, but is this ever enforced? I have never had anyone ask to see my return ticket when checking the outward portion. Is there even any requirement to carry the return portion with you when making the outward journey?

It's too much work to enforce at any sort of scale for paper tickets (albeit barrier markings on the magstripe may help in situations like this - where an "already used" ticket would be entered at Norwich to "start" the journey).

With eTickets, both portions are issued under the same UTN (unique ticket number) so it's trivial for systems to see when an outward portion is used out of sequence.

 

[saismee]

With eTickets, both portions are issued under the same UTN (unique ticket number) so it's trivial for systems to see when an outward portion is used out of sequence.

It may be true that the outward portion is no longer valid once the return portion is used, but is this ever enforced? I have never had anyone ask to see my return ticket when checking the outward portion. Is there even any requirement to carry the return portion with you when making the outward journey?

From experience, it's not enforced even with e-tickets. The Greater Anglia app has given me some trouble in the past with suggesting a reverse journey but still as a return and I've bought one of these by mistake. Zero trouble on the train, explained to gateline and was let out hassle free. Not really something I'd chance on purpose though.

What you cannot then do is to use the outward portion for a second journey. If your outward ticket were "clipped" for your Diss to Ipswich journey, that would be it. If you then tried to use it for Norwich to Diss, it would be rejected as it would look like you were trying to make a second Norwich to Ipswich journey.

I don't believe guards are supposed to clip tickets anymore as it's too ambiguous. I've seen some GN inspectors use stamps with the headcode and time on them though. Either way, it doesn't matter whether a ticket is clipped or marked, it can still be valid if the journey is broken and restarted (though not in the case of using the outbound ticket after the return portion).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:26 ==

It's too much work to enforce at any sort of scale for paper tickets (albeit barrier markings on the magstripe may help in situations like this - where an "already used" ticket would be entered at Norwich to "start" the journey).

I wouldn't actually be using any barriers as none of the real stations are barriered, but if it's not valid then I'm not going to do attempt it.

 

[yorkie]

It may be true that the outward portion is no longer valid once the return portion is used, but is this ever enforced?

Rarely, but yes it has been enforced. I personally have been asked to show an unused return portion when presenting an outward portion on at least one occasion.

The outward isn't valid without an accompanying entirely unused return.

From experience, it's not enforced...

I have had it enforced, though admittedly it's extremely rare. But it's not the case that it is never enforced.

Also, can you be certain you won't encounter any of the same staff who may realise what you are doing?

In practice, yes it usually the case that people will indeed get away with it, but that cannot be guaranteed!

 

[Vexed]

I don't believe guards are supposed to clip tickets anymore as it's too ambiguous. I've seen some GN inspectors use stamps with the headcode and time on them though. Either way, it doesn't matter whether a ticket is clipped or marked, it can still be valid if the journey is broken and restarted (though not in the case of using the outbound ticket after the return portion).

To my surprise gateline staff at Waterloo wrote the date on the return portion of my super off peak return a few weeks ago. Luckily I wasn't planning on breaking my journey.

 

[Kite159]

To my surprise gateline staff at Waterloo wrote the date on the return portion of my super off peak return a few weeks ago. Luckily I wasn't planning on breaking my journey.

There are a couple of Waterloo based RPIs who do that, especially if the ticket doesn't open the barriers.

As for using the return portion before the outward (especially on some flows where "Town to London" is more expensive than "London to Town") if it's an eticket then the outward part does flag up that the return has been used.