Northallerton: Why don't CrossCountry call there?

[cuccir]

Couldn't find this on previous threads and there may not be a definitive answer!

Does anyone know why Northallerton has services from the East Coast Mainline operator but not Cross Country? AFAIK it is unique on the shared routes between the two operators in this being the case.

Given that EC is the 'primary' operator running faster services to/from London, it seems a little odd to me that they call when the slower CrossCountry trains calling instead. Is it just the way the services have evolved or am I missing some logic to this?

 

[greyman42]

Cross Country serve Chester Le Street. VTEC don't.

 

[Starmill]

Cross Country serve Chester Le Street. VTEC don't.

I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. CrossCountry provide just one service per day at Chester-le-Street. TransPennine Express provide most services there.

I think there was a point in recent history where Northallterton had either no London service or almost none, making it similar to Thirsk - just served by the slower TransPennine Express trains. Then came Grand Central, who wished to serve both Thirsk and Northallerton. In order to combat this incursion onto revenue / grab a slice of the pie for themselves, East Coast increased the number of calls they made at Northallteron. They are now broadly 2-hourly.

Now Northallterton has more trains than I think it has ever had before!

 

[greyman42]

I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. CrossCountry provide just one service per day at Chester-le-Street. TransPennine Express provide most services there.

I think there was a point in recent history where Northallterton had either no London service or almost none, making it similar to Thirsk - just served by the slower TransPennine Express trains. Then came Grand Central, who wished to serve both Thirsk and Northallerton. In order to combat this incursion onto revenue / grab a slice of the pie for themselves, East Coast increased the number of calls they made at Northallteron. They are now broadly 2-hourly.

Now Northallterton has more trains than I think it has ever had before!

Northallerton is a much larger town than it was and I believe this is the reason for the extra VTEC services. Thirsk is pretty much as it was.

 

[DarloRich]

have you ever been to Northallerton?

I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. CrossCountry provide just one service per day at Chester-le-Street. TransPennine Express provide most services there.

I think there was a point in recent history where Northallterton had either no London service or almost none, making it similar to Thirsk - just served by the slower TransPennine Express trains. Then came Grand Central, who wished to serve both Thirsk and Northallerton. In order to combat this incursion onto revenue / grab a slice of the pie for themselves, East Coast increased the number of calls they made at Northallteron. They are now broadly 2-hourly.

Now Northallterton has more trains than I think it has ever had before!

I think it always had a couple of London services but the frequency of East Coast Trains has increased vastly in recent years.

 

[cuccir]

Cross Country serve Chester Le Street. VTEC don't.

Yes, exactly my point: the mainline operator doesn't call, CrossCountry do (once a day). It seems odd that at Northallerton it's the wrong way round, so to speak.

 

[cuccir]

I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. CrossCountry provide just one service per day at Chester-le-Street. TransPennine Express provide most services there.

I think there was a point in recent history where Northallterton had either no London service or almost none, making it similar to Thirsk - just served by the slower TransPennine Express trains. Then came Grand Central, who wished to serve both Thirsk and Northallerton. In order to combat this incursion onto revenue / grab a slice of the pie for themselves, East Coast increased the number of calls they made at Northallteron. They are now broadly 2-hourly.

Now Northallterton has more trains than I think it has ever had before!

OK - so it's a counter Grand Central thing? That makes sense!

 

[backontrack]

Northallerton has a population of over 16,000 - around four times the population of Thirsk. Thirsk itself is about the same size as Easingwold, and the station is not very near the town or Sowerby.

 

[ooo]

population of over 16,00

I think you've missed out a 0 unless Northallerton is very small

 

[SWTrainspottin]

CrossCountry services already stop at enough places as it is in my opinion.

 

[ainsworth74]

I tell you what the changes that Northallerton's timetable to/from London has gone through are dramatic to say the least! I managed to dig out (thank you wayback machine) a GNER timetable from the last timetable period before Grand Central started running 20 May 2007 - 08 December 2007 and in comparison to the timetable during the current period (almost exactly ten years later) it's night and day!

Take weekdays for example:

Southbound to London there were six services per day in 2007 now in 2017/18 there are fifteen! It's basically tripled! It's a similar story wherever you care to look. Sunday northbound there were five services and there are now eleven services.

I'm not sure if putting this growth on Grand Central wouldn't be mixing up correlation with causation however.

Anyway in case anyone is interested below is the results of my combing through the GNER timetable and RTT:

20 May 2007 - 08 December 2007 (Grand Central began services 18 December 2007)

Northallerton (NTR) - Kings Cross (KGX) (all times are departures)

MON - FRI

0522/0530 (MO/MX)
0608
0712
0941
1449
1852

6 Southbound per day

SAT

0530
0741
0942
1414

4 Southbound per day (2129 terminates Doncaster)

SUN

0938
1342
1511
1745
1939

5 Southbound per day (2240 terminates York)

KGX - NTR (all times are arrivals)

MON - FRI

1200
1458
1756
1900
2043
2220

6 Northbound per day

SAT

1220
1455
1822
2126

4 Northbound per day (0701 originates Doncaster)

SUN

1425
1858
2007
2104
2347

5 Northbound per day (0918 originates York)

10 December 2017 - 19 May 2018

NTR - KGX (all times are departures)

MON - FRI

0529 (VTEC)
0609 (VTEC)
0715 (VTEC)
0753 (GC)
0908 (VTEC)
0947 (GC)
1110 (VTEC)
1308 (VTEC)
1331 (GC)
1508 (VTEC)
1640 (GC)
1709 (VTEC)
1809 (VTEC)
1841 (GC)
2158 (VTEC)

15 Southbound services

SAT

0529 (VTEC)
0610 (VTEC)
0714 (VTEC)
0751 (GC)
0908 (VTEC)
0943 (GC)
1108 (VTEC)
1309 (VTEC)
1320 (GC)
1508 (VTEC)
1631 (GC)
1709 (VTEC)
1809 (VTEC)
1832 (GC)

14 Southbound services (2128 VTEC terminates Doncaster)

SUN

1008 (VTEC)
1024 (GC)
1112 (VTEC)
1309 (VTEC)
1324 (GC)
1401 (VTEC)
1524 (GC)
1532 (VTEC)
1644 (VTEC)
1829 (VTEC)
1913 (VTEC)
1924 (GC)

12 Southbound services (2231 VTEC terminates Leeds)

KGX - NTR (all times are arrivals)

MON - FRI

0045/0109 (MO/MX) (VTEC) (1N35 2200 departure from KGX previous evening)
0853 (VTEC)
1023 (GC)
1054 (VTEC)
1254 (VTEC)
1345 (GC)
1454 (VTEC)
1522 (GC)
1554 (VTEC)
1654 (VTEC)
1754 (VTEC)
1854 (VTEC)
1906 (GC)
2038 (VTEC
2144 (GC)
2151 (VTEC)
2342 (VTEC)

17 Northbound services

SAT

0109 (VTEC) (1N35 2200 departure from KGX previous evening)
0853 (VTEC)
1044 (GC)
1054 (VTEC)
1254 (VTEC)
1344 (GC)
1454 (VTEC)
1544 (GC)
1653 (VTEC)
1753 (VTEC)
1855 (VTEC)
1906 (GC)
2055 (VTEC)
2126 (GC)
2151 (VTEC)
2316 (VTEC)

16 Northbound serivices (0653 VTEC originates Doncaster)

SUN

1240 (GC)
1253 (VTEC)
1451 (VTEC)
1620 (GC)
1651 (VTEC)
1853 (VTEC)
1936 (GC)
2055 (VTEC)
2120 (GC)
2228 (VTEC)
2335 (VTEC)

11 Northbound services (0918 VTEC originates Leeds)

 

[50031]

Going further back in time, I vaguely remember some Northallerton calls by cross country services in BR days (80's)

 

[Marton]

Going further back in time, I vaguely remember some Northallerton calls by cross country services in BR days (80's)

I’m sure your right, but don’t have my old timetables to hand

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not sure if putting this growth on Grand Central wouldn't be mixing up correlation with causation however.

It was odd how the changes happened just after Grand Central started to call at Northallerton though!

Yes, exactly my point: the mainline operator doesn't call, CrossCountry do (once a day).

It depends how you define "main line operator". I'd say they both were.

XC only started to call at Chester-le-Street because Northern (Spirit)'s 2-hourly Newcastle-Darlington-Middlesbrough stopper had to be canned to accommodate the increase in XC services with Operation Princess. And even then the XC call was put into the Newcastle-Reading trains, not the Scotland services.

 

[ainsworth74]

It was odd how the changes happened just after Grand Central started to call at Northallerton though!

Yes yes I know. I'm quite certain they've had an impact to be sure but I'm not sure the finger can just be pointed at that is all I'm getting at After all the timetable operated by the ICEC franchise has substantially increased over the last five or six years at the same.

 

[edwin_m]

I would guess Northallerton acts as a railhead for the surrounding rural area, being easier to drive into than York.

 

[greyman42]

I would guess Northallerton acts as a railhead for the surrounding rural area, being easier to drive into than York.

It is significantly closer to Darlington than York.

 

[backontrack]

I think you've missed out a 0 unless Northallerton is very small

Ah, thanks! Thirsk and Easingwold would have been tiny then...

 

[yorkie]

Northallerton has a good service now, and I don't think there is a need for any additional calls there by adding CrossCountry to the list of operators.

People do drive to Northallerton from a lot of places (and their alternative may not be Darlington, especially if heading South), so there is a fair bit of demand for longer distance travel to places like London.

 

[DarloRich]

Northallerton has a good service now, and I don't think there is a need for any additional calls there by adding CrossCountry to the list of operators.

People do drive to Northallerton from a lot of places (and their alternative may not be Darlington, especially if heading South), so there is a fair bit of demand for longer distance travel to places like London.

Calling on personal knowledge the area for passngers is quite large if sparsely populated. There are also quite a few passengers from the likes of Yarm, the dales and the moors. It doesn't draw may passengers from Catterick or Richmond mainly as the bus links face Darlo.

 

[dk1]

Not sure what the figures where in the early 2000s but passenger numbers between 2012 & 2017 have grown from 588k to 706k at Northallerton.

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure what the figures where in the early 2000s but passenger numbers between 2012 & 2017 have grown from 588k to 706k at Northallerton.

It has always been well used for a small town station. It is a very affluent, rural area after all.

 

[dk1]

It has always been well used for a small town station. It is a very affluent, rural area after all.

I'm still waiting for JD Wetherspoon to open a pub here so I have an excuse to visit.

 

[Hardcastle]

Don`t forget Northallerton is the county town of North Yorkshire so that may generate a business case for the better service.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Not sure what the figures where in the early 2000s but passenger numbers between 2012 & 2017 have grown from 588k to 706k at Northallerton.

According to the "Bettertransport.org.uk" website. Northallerton had 287,984 passengers in 1998.
http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/maps/rail-usage.html

 

[DarloRich]

I'm still waiting for JD Wetherspoon to open a pub here so I have an excuse to visit.

you will be waiting a long time - the town is sowed up

Don`t forget Northallerton is the county town of North Yorkshire so that may generate a business case for the better service.

on what basis?

 

[cuccir]

Don`t forget Northallerton is the county town of North Yorkshire so that may generate a business case for the better service.

I must admit that in starting the thread I was sort of remarking on Northallerton having such a good service, rather than suggesting it needed more trains!

 

[dk1]

According to the "Bettertransport.org.uk" website. Northallerton had 287,984 passengers in 1998.
http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/maps/rail-usage.html

Some really impressive growth figures across the railway since privatisation. Give a decent service & the punters will follow.

 

[Starmill]

Being a county town probably doesn't have a significant impact, unless there are council offices there that might mean a few more long-distance travellers or if there are services that can only be accessed in that town and not in the other towns and villages nearby. I'm not sure either apply to Northallerton

Significantly, TransPennine Express introduced a few additional services between York and Newcastle at the December 2016 change and they chose not to call any at Northallerton. They call at either Durham or Darlington broadly speaking.

 

[SCH117X]

Being a county town probably doesn't have a significant impact, unless there are council offices there

Northallerton has both the main offices of North Yorkshire County Council and Hambleton District Council, North Yorkshire still having two tier local government.