Northern Connect to Nottingham

[anti-pacer]

I have just read on Wikipedia (not always a valid source) that when the Northern Connect services start from Bradford to Nottingham, it will no longer call at Meadowhall, Dronfield, Chesterfield, Alfreton, and Langley Mill (and presumably Ilkeston once opened).

I know the service will run via Wakefield Westgate so will naturally miss out Kirkgate (thank god!) and Barnsley, but surely the rest is a myth.

The Wikipedia page in question is the entry for Alfreton station.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I have just read on Wikipedia (not always a valid source) that when the Northern Connect services start from Bradford to Nottingham, it will no longer call at Meadowhall, Dronfield, Chesterfield, Alfreton, and Langley Mill (and presumably Ilkeston once opened).

I know the service will run via Wakefield Westgate so will naturally miss out Kirkgate (thank god!) and Barnsley, but surely the rest is a myth.

The Wikipedia page in question is the entry for Alfreton station.

Not what the DfT announced.. http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

 

[GNERman]

The reference for said quote on the Wikipedia page for Alfreton Station is a link to a map showing the proposed Northern Connect routes (https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...es/maps/2016-07/NorthernConnectMap_July16.pdf).

Said map shows some stations, but not all, as you can see. I wonder if someone has seen that and presumed, therefore, that Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield and Nottingham will be the only stops... (which I doubt will be the case - indeed, that would mean a Northern Connect service from Hull to Sheffield calling at Doncaster only, and a York-Blackpool service calling only at Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Blackburn and Preston...!)

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The DFT page seems to suggest there will be 10 Northern Connect trains per day, perhaps these will be express workings with standard services as normal for the rest of the day, given that they talk about a 30 minute frequency at other stops.

The Northern Connect brand is, I believe, supposed to be the express service for Northern, so having all-stopper trains wouldn't be the best way to do this.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Franchise specification is at least one train per hour calling at all stations between Sheffield & Nottingham.

 

[anti-pacer]

The Franchise specification is at least one train per hour calling at all stations between Sheffield & Nottingham.

So could that read as EMT increasing their stops whilst Northern run fast between the two, or for the service pattern to remain the same as now?

Interesting.

 

[47802]

We know from the interactive map that the Dft published that the Northern train will be calling at Chesterfield and Ilkeston and I think its fairly obvious that the Northern train is likely to call at the other stations while the EMT service will be more limited stop between Nottingham and Sheffield.

 

[MichaelAMW]

The DFT page seems to suggest there will be 10 Northern Connect trains per day, perhaps these will be express workings with standard services as normal for the rest of the day, given that they talk about a 30 minute frequency at other stops.

The Northern Connect brand is, I believe, supposed to be the express service for Northern, so having all-stopper trains wouldn't be the best way to do this.

I can't see why anything will change between Sheffield and Nottingham. There are only four stops altogether in 40 miles, with a fifth at Ilkeston on its way, so that doesn't really look like a "stopper" in the conventional sense, by which I mean stations every few minutes.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd be shocked if the Bradford to Nottingham service didn't call at Meadowhall (albeit platforms 1/2 rather than 3/4 on the Barnsley "arm"). I expect that will be the only call between Wakefield and Sheffield though, unless there's peak calls at places like Moorthorpe. The only significant settlement en-route is Rotherham but as the station there is on a loop off the main line I'd be surprised if the Nottingham service called, especially as the tram-train service will start there eventually.

 

[lejog]

So could that read as EMT increasing their stops whilst Northern run fast between the two, or for the service pattern to remain the same as now?

Interesting.

No, the Northern franchise agreement is the contract that specifies services Northern have to run, not EMT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd be shocked if the Bradford to Nottingham service didn't call at Meadowhall (albeit platforms 1/2 rather than 3/4 on the Barnsley "arm"). I expect that will be the only call between Wakefield and Sheffield though, unless there's peak calls at places like Moorthorpe. The only significant settlement en-route is Rotherham but as the station there is on a loop off the main line I'd be surprised if the Nottingham service called, especially as the tram-train service will start there eventually.

I did look at the TSRs for this service and it seems highly unlikely to stop between Wakefield and Meadowhall - those stations only received the number of services provided by the current stoppers. There were far too many services stopping at Meadowhall for me to attempt to work out whether or not it stopped there.

 

[ashworth]

I can't see it not stopping at Meadowhall as there are quite a lot of passengers who use the current service to travel from Dronfield and Chesterfield and even Alfreton to Meadowhall.

I also think the stopping pattern will remain the same as at present between Sheffield and Nottingham. The EMT Liverpool to Norwich service, apart form occasional peak time services, will not stop at Dronfield or Langley Mill and so the Leeds to Nottingham Northern Connect service will still provide their hourly service. Both EMT and Northern, I'm sure will continue to call at Chesterfield and Alfreton. In the proposed timetable for when Ilkeston opens it is to be served by the hourly Northern service but a also about half a dozen EMT Liverpool to Norwich trains will call there each day.

 

[brompton rail]

I can't see it not stopping at Meadowhall as there are quite a lot of passengers who use the current service to travel from Dronfield and Chesterfield and even Alfreton to Meadowhall.

I also think the stopping pattern will remain the same as at present between Sheffield and Nottingham. The EMT Liverpool to Norwich service, apart form occasional peak time services, will not stop at Dronfield or Langley Mill and so the Leeds to Nottingham Northern Connect service will still provide their hourly service. Both EMT and Northern, I'm sure will continue to call at Chesterfield and Alfreton. In the proposed timetable for when Ilkeston opens it is to be served by the hourly Northern service but a also about half a dozen EMT Liverpool to Norwich trains will call there each day.

I thought the Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield Northern Connect service was to continue to Chesterfield, though I don't know if it would stop at Dronfield.

 

[chessie]

Interesting DFT link, thanks for posting.

Could Dronfield be getting a 30 min interval service as opposed to the current off peak hourly service and Chesterfield an additional Sheffield return? If you click on the Hull to Sheffield in addition to the Bradford to Nottingham section it would appear so at first glance to me. Must admit Dronfield seems to get busier and busier so it would probably be most welcome there.

 

[lejog]

More detailed and more up to date information than those interactive maps is to be found in the Train Service Requirements, which are the comprehensive contractual statement of the services Northern have to provide (Schedule 5 gives the weekday service post 2019).

Chesterfield and Dronfield are to receive 2tph between 10am and 4pm, not in the peaks or evening, when it is just the 1tph all stations to Nottingham.

 

[darloscott]

More detailed and more up to date information than those interactive maps is to be found in the Train Service Requirements, which are the comprehensive contractual statement of the services Northern have to provide (Schedule 5 gives the weekday service post 2019).

Chesterfield and Dronfield are to receive 2tph between 10am and 4pm, not in the peaks or evening, when it is just the 1tph all stations to Nottingham.

I guess there's a lot of scope to use peak strengthening units during the day to boost off-peak services to operate more. Hence during the day you can use an extra unit to extend something (Leeds stopper?) to Chesterfield which wouldn't be available at peak times.

 

[43074]

I guess there's a lot of scope to use peak strengthening units during the day to boost off-peak services to operate more. Hence during the day you can use an extra unit to extend something (Leeds stopper?) to Chesterfield which wouldn't be available at peak times.

I believe it's the Sheffield - Hull Connect service they're planning to extend to Chesterfield... Dronfield and Chesterfield will do very well out of this when it all falls into place.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe it's the Sheffield - Hull Connect service they're planning to extend to Chesterfield... Dronfield and Chesterfield will do very well out of this when it all falls into place.

Makes sense, particularly considering the amount of passengers from these stations to Meadowhall (mentioned above) who will probably be in the inter-peak period.

 

[Frothy]

It was my personal interpretation that the future Northern Connect Nottingham services would omit Dronfield calls outside of the peaks, and Dronfield calls would be transferred to the Hull to Chesterfield service.
Looking at the 2017 TSR, Chesterfield calls could also be omitted on the Nottinghams although that's much less likely.

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[43074]

December 2017: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/501847/arn-tsr-schedule-3-tsr2-weekdays.pdf

December 2019: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/501849/arn-tsr-schedule-5-tsr3-weekdays.pdf

I think we're getting confused between the changes from December 2017 and December 2019 - the additional Chesterfield services are not a requirement until December 2019, when the full Northern Connect network is launched, and until that time the Leeds - Nottingham service will continue much as now. The December 2019 document shows Northern must provide 12 arrivals and departures at Sheffield between 10:00 and 15:59, i.e. 2tph but only half that from December 2017.

 

[Frothy]

December 2017: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/501847/arn-tsr-schedule-3-tsr2-weekdays.pdf

December 2019: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/501849/arn-tsr-schedule-5-tsr3-weekdays.pdf

I think we're getting confused between the changes from December 2017 and December 2019 - the additional Chesterfield services are not a requirement until December 2019, when the full Northern Connect network is launched, and until that time the Leeds - Nottingham service will continue much as now. The December 2019 document shows Northern must provide 12 arrivals and departures at Sheffield between 10:00 and 15:59, i.e. 2tph but only half that from December 2017.

Goodness me, right you are! I was unaware that the contracted TSRs were different to the ones in the ITT.

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