Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[nw-sparks]

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If that were the situation it would be showing on 'Open Rail' already.
...

I don't think you can place too much reliance on the schedules shown by my web site at the moment. For example look at the Ordsall Chord trains, I'm currently showing five services a day from Leeds to Oxford Road via Bradford and Victoria, but only two in the other direction. Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't seem very likely.

Don't forget the twelve week window on this stuff isn't until October, so they've plenty of time to correct/alter things.

Phil

 

[pemma]

I don't think you can place too much reliance on the schedules shown by my web site at the moment. For example look at the Ordsall Chord trains, I'm currently showing five services a day from Leeds to Oxford Road via Bradford and Victoria, but only two in the other direction. Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't seem very likely.

Indeed. If it's correct either platform 5 at Oxford Road is going to end up full of empty trains or the Oxford Rd to Lime Street stoppers are going to increase in length at off-peak times.

 

[Bovverboy]

319374 (in new livery) on 1814 Picc-Airport, so should be 1840 Airport-Liverpool.

EDIT: Sorry, my mistake. It should be on the 1940 Airport-Liverpool.

 

[darylyates17]

Would it be possible for someone to create a list of the all the Northern Class 319s and whether that have been refurbished or not so we can quickly find out whats been done and what needs doing

 

[jonesy3001]

There's a list in the northern refurbishment thread.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128846&page=48

 

[darylyates17]

There's a list in the northern refurbishment thread.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128846&page=48

Ah great Id forgot about that thread

 

[Bovverboy]

There's a list in the northern refurbishment thread.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128846&page=48

You'll need to click on page 95 or 96 for the updated list. As I read it, 319374/82/424/31/4/56 are in the new colours, including blue ends. That presumably explains why four such units appear to be visible in the Youtube clip uploaded to this forum on 9 August by boby32.

You can see a few 319 in new livery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulTmylW0-0

As far as I'm aware, of the above, only 319374/82/431 have been in service, and of the units visible in the clip, only 319382 is identifiable.

In allover white (according to the list) are 361-6/9/77/448/50.

 

[8A Rail]

You'll need to click on page 95 or 96 for the updated list. As I read it, 319374/82/424/31/4/56 are in the new colours, including blue ends. That presumably explains why four such units appear to be visible in the Youtube clip uploaded to this forum on 9 August by boby32.

As far as I'm aware, of the above, only 319374/82/431 have been in service, and of the units visible in the clip, only 319382 is identifiable.

In all over white (according to the list) are 361-6/9/77/448/50.

Yes you are correct which complete Northern Livery Class 319's have been out and about and one of them (431) is now out of traffic!!

 

[Bovverboy]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but are there no plans to bring the seating layout on the 319/4s into line with that on the 319/3s? I travelled on 319450 a couple of times yesterday and it still had the layout it presumably had with FCC, i.e. much more 2+2, and even 2+1 in what had been the first class section.

 

[Bovverboy]

The roads at Stockport CS will not fit 2 x 319, though I will speculate that there is scope for additional sidings to be laid there.

Contributor 50032, is that information from an official source, or does it simply look to you as though two 319s wouldn't fit the roads?

Most of the roads will fit 2x323 with space to spare, and, because 319 carriages are shorter than those of 323s, two 319s take up about the same space as seven 323 carriages. So, whether two 319s would fit or not, it would be a very, very close run thing, either way.

 

[Bovverboy]

as far as I know Stockport (CMD) currently stables four dmu sets (here again, I don't know if they are 2-car or 4-car), four 323s*, and one 319, which I would think pretty well fills the place.

CORRECTION: * Five 323s.

I was wrong there, the above doesn't come anywhere near to filling Stockport CMD. The above constitutes 29 total carriages (at least one of the DMU sets is a 4-car), whereas at least 41 carriages can actually be accommodated.

 

[50032]

Contributor 50032, is that information from an official source, or does it simply look to you as though two 319s wouldn't fit the roads?

Most of the roads will fit 2x323 with space to spare, and, because 319 carriages are shorter than those of 323s, two 319s take up about the same space as seven 323 carriages. So, whether two 319s would fit or not, it would be a very, very close run thing, either way.

Take a look at Google Maps, roads 5 and 6 have x2 323 stabled, their length takes them to the walkway which is effectively the fouling point for that road.

You *might* get x2 319's in No.7 road but they would foul the short No.8 road.

 

[Mordac]

What's happening with the first class section on the 319/4 units Northern got? Has it just been declassified, or have they replaced it with standard seating?

 

[Bovverboy]

What's happening with the first class section on the 319/4 units Northern got? Has it just been declassified, or have they replaced it with standard seating?

That on 319450 has, for the time being at least, simply been declassified. There is also more 2+2 seating than on a 319/3, but there is some 3+2, all the same. I haven't travelled on 319448, but it has been implied on the refurbishment thread that it is as 319450.

 

[DJH1971]

That on 319450 has, for the time being at least, simply been declassified. There is also more 2+2 seating than on a 319/3, but there is some 3+2, all the same. I haven't travelled on 319448, but it has been implied on the refurbishment thread that it is as 319450.

And I can confirm that 319448 still has the first class seats which are now declassified.

I was on it on the way home from work today.

 

[DJH1971]

You'll need to click on page 95 or 96 for the updated list. As I read it, 319374/82/424/31/4/56 are in the new colours, including blue ends. That presumably explains why four such units appear to be visible in the Youtube clip uploaded to this forum on 9 August by boby32.



As far as I'm aware, of the above, only 319374/82/431 have been in service, and of the units visible in the clip, only 319382 is identifiable.

In allover white (according to the list) are 361-6/9/77/448/50.

319379 is now also in the new livery and was on today's 06:02 MCV-LIV service.

 

[8A Rail]

319379 is now also in the new livery and was on today's 06:02 MCV-LIV service.

Noted this unit on this evenings 2F31 18.51hrs Warrington Bank Quay to Liverpool Lime Street train, passing Rainhill 76 steps at 19.15hrs.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by DJH1971 on Thursday 31 August
319379 is now also in the new livery and was on today's 06:02 MCV-LIV service.

Which implies that, the previous day (Wednesday 30 August), it had been the last AM unit out of Allerton (timed 0646), worked four Manchester Airports, a Wigan, and the 2220 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria.

Any sightings?

 

[Bovverboy]

Which implies that, the previous day (Wednesday 30 August), it had been the last AM unit out of Allerton (timed 0646), worked four Manchester Airports, a Wigan, and the 2220 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria.

Any sightings?

Sorry, that is how things would have been had services operated normally. In the event, the 1440 Airport-Liverpool was cancelled, ostensibly through a problem with the doors. Consequential cancellations were 1616 Liverpool-Airport and 1740 Airport-Liverpool. (There is no indication, that I can see, of how the defective unit returned to Liverpool.)
The 1216 ex-Lime Street was turned short at Oxford Road (crew problem), so two successive journeys failed to operate from the Airport.

The 1947 Liverpool to Wigan was apparently worked by the unit off the 1836 Wigan-Liverpool, which would otherwise have then returned to Allerton. The duty incorporating the 1836 starts, not at Allerton, but at Lime Street, the implication being that 319379 operated a duty on Tuesday, 29 August.

Er, any sightings?

 

[stu99]

Sorry if this has been covered before and if it is the correct thread, however does anyone have any dates when the first few class 150s will be transferred from GWR?
Thanks

 

[Bovverboy]

Take a look at Google Maps, roads 5 and 6 have x2 323 stabled, their length takes them to the walkway which is effectively the fouling point for that road.

You *might* get x2 319's in No.7 road but they would foul the short No.8 road.

Sorry to be slow in getting back to you on this one, 50032, I wanted to have a look at the Stockport sidings while there was no stock stabled.

I hadn't been aware that No.8 road existed, since, from outside the site, it can only be seen from certain positions. It doesn't look as though it could hold much, perhaps not even a single 323. Is it electrified?

I'm surprised that Stockport CMD doesn't function as a traincrew depot. It's certainly big enough - ten sets depart the site most mornings (that compares with just seven at Wigan and five at Buxton), and, of those ten, six don't head into Manchester to pick up service, so I make that six conductors needing to be imported, in addition to the ten drivers. Also, Stockport could provide the stock for the six Longsight duties which head off ECS to Crewe, Stoke, Macclesfield, and Alderley Edge, or the four (?) Newton Heath duties which go ECS to Chester or Hazel Grove. There's plenty of work originating in the Stockport area.

I'm still predicting that Stockport CMD will go all-electric when the Manchester-Bolton-Preston corridor does, whenever that may be. Famous last words.

Could you give me a link to the Google Maps page?

 

[pemma]

Sorry to be slow in getting back to you on this one, 50032, I wanted to have a look at the Stockport sidings while there was no stock stabled.

I hadn't been aware that No.8 road existed, since, from outside the site, it can only be seen from certain positions. It doesn't look as though it could hold much, perhaps not even a single 323. Is it electrified?

I'm surprised that Stockport CMD doesn't function as a traincrew depot. It's certainly big enough - ten sets depart the site most mornings (that compares with just seven at Wigan and five at Buxton), and, of those ten, six don't head into Manchester to pick up service, so I make that six conductors needing to be imported, in addition to the ten drivers. Also, Stockport could provide the stock for the six Longsight duties which head off ECS to Crewe, Stoke, Macclesfield, and Alderley Edge, or the four (?) Newton Heath duties which go ECS to Chester or Hazel Grove. There's plenty of work originating in the Stockport area.

I'm still predicting that Stockport CMD will go all-electric when the Manchester-Bolton-Preston corridor does, whenever that may be. Famous last words.

Could you give me a link to the Google Maps page?

At one point Northern's plan was for the units starting the day at Chester to come from Allerton once the 319s entered service on Chat Moss. However, the DfT led plan for Allerton based 156s to substitute for 185s changed that.

 

[Shrimper]

I'm surprised that Stockport CMD doesn't function as a traincrew depot. It's certainly big enough - ten sets depart the site most mornings (that compares with just seven at Wigan and five at Buxton), and, of those ten, six don't head into Manchester to pick up service, so I make that six conductors needing to be imported, in addition to the ten drivers. Also, Stockport could provide the stock for the six Longsight duties which head off ECS to Crewe, Stoke, Macclesfield, and Alderley Edge, or the four (?) Newton Heath duties which go ECS to Chester or Hazel Grove. There's plenty of work originating in the Stockport area.

A lot of the arriving train crew (and departing in the evening) make it from Piccadilly on service trains so the cost is low compared to a full traincrew facility.

The 323 diagrams which start from Longsight start there as there are no maintenance facilities at Stockport; ditto the Newton Heath units (Stockport can't fuel, either).

 

[Bovverboy]

A lot of the arriving train crew (and departing in the evening) make it from Piccadilly on service trains so the cost is low compared to a full traincrew facility.

I have to admit that I'm struggling to come to terms with this notion of a train depot with trains, but no crews. Also, I'm beginning to wonder what a 'full traincrew facility' incorporates - swimming pool?
I can't believe that staff living in Stockport wouldn't jump at the chance to report for work there - with consequential benefits for recruitment.

The 323 diagrams which start from Longsight start there as there are no maintenance facilities at Stockport; ditto the Newton Heath units (Stockport can't fuel, either).

Currently, of the fifteen 323s which operate in daily service in this area (M/F), ten return to Longsight at the end of their day, and five to Stockport. The ten returning to Longsight add to the two which didn't go out in the first place.
I very much doubt that twelve out of seventeen 323s need workshop attention overnight, and, if they did, they probably wouldn't get it anyway. There has to be a most finite limit on how much stock can be shuffled about when the place is fully occupied.

I presume you're saying that Stockport CMD only exists because the local TMDs (Longsight and Newton Heath) are fully occupied. You're probably right, but I thought I'd make the point that Stockport could accommodate far more stock than it actually does, were that to prove necessary.

As to the lack of fuel, it's the absence of fuelling facilities at Stockport which makes me believe that diesels will be withdrawn from there before very long. A diesel depot, with no diesel, has to be a bit of a joke.

 

[Shrimper]

I have to admit that I'm struggling to come to terms with this notion of a train depot with trains, but no crews. Also, I'm beginning to wonder what a 'full traincrew facility' incorporates - swimming pool?
I can't believe that staff living in Stockport wouldn't jump at the chance to report for work there - with consequential benefits for recruitment.

Not huge amounts, but if it's a guard depot it needs full secure facilities for taking in and paying out cash, plus suitable space for management, breaks, lockers and anything else. As it happens, drivers at Piccadilly CAN book on at Stockport if their job starts at Stockport sidings; guards can't as they need to collect their equipment and cash.

Currently, of the fifteen 323s which operate in daily service in this area (M/F), ten return to Longsight at the end of their day, and five to Stockport. The ten returning to Longsight add to the two which didn't go out in the first place.
I very much doubt that twelve out of seventeen 323s need workshop attention overnight, and, if they did, they probably wouldn't get it anyway. There has to be a most finite limit on how much stock can be shuffled about when the place is fully occupied.

I presume you're saying that Stockport CMD only exists because the local TMDs (Longsight and Newton Heath) are fully occupied. You're probably right, but I thought I'd make the point that Stockport could accommodate far more stock than it actually does, were that to prove necessary.

I have no idea why diagrams place stock in certain locations - I only drive it there - but Stockport cannot do anything beyond topping up some fluids (oil, water, sand), cleaning and emptying toilet tanks. I don't know what the maintenance schedule for a 323 is, however every time one is on Longsight it
receives a full check-over and any faults raised can be rectified. Ditto diesels which overnight away from Newton Heath. Stockport probably has some additional space, but not huge amounts.

As to the lack of fuel, it's the absence of fuelling facilities at Stockport which makes me believe that diesels will be withdrawn from there before very long. A diesel depot, with no diesel, has to be a bit of a joke.

It isn't a depot in effect; just some sidings - no different to any other unit stabled out on the network (Buxton, Wigan etc); it just happens to be larger.

 

[Bovverboy]

Not huge amounts, but if it's a guard depot it needs full secure facilities for taking in and paying out cash, plus suitable space for management, breaks, lockers and anything else. As it happens, drivers at Piccadilly CAN book on at Stockport if their job starts at Stockport sidings; guards can't as they need to collect their equipment and cash.

So, as far as drivers are concerned, Stockport is a traincrew depot in all but name..

I have no idea why diagrams place stock in certain locations - I only drive it there - but Stockport cannot do anything beyond topping up some fluids (oil, water, sand), cleaning and emptying toilet tanks. I don't know what the maintenance schedule for a 323 is, however every time one is on Longsight it receives a full check-over and any faults raised can be rectified. Ditto diesels which overnight away from Newton Heath.

So what would be likely to be checked on a 323 stabled at Longsight which wouldn't get checked at Stockport, without actually taking the unit into the workshop? Or are you saying that any 323 arriving at Longsight is automatically sent into the workshop for a check, even though there would be a 50/50 chance that it would have received the same check only the night before?

Stockport probably has some additional space, but not huge amounts.

I estimate that, as things stand, Stockport could accommodate approximately 50% more stock than it actually does. That does assume, however, that any stock arriving is going to be in a 2-car, 3-car, or 4-car formation. If Stockport were to become restricted to 3-car and 4-car EMUs, that would reduce total capacity, but still to more than is currently used.

It isn't a depot in effect; just some sidings - no different to any other unit stabled out on the network (Buxton, Wigan etc); it just happens to be larger.

Stockport might be bigger as a whole than Buxton or Wigan, but the latter two do accommodate more diesels. I'm more critical of Buxton and Wigan being devoid of fuel than I am of Stockport. The lack of fuel at Stockport is a problem easily solved - simply transfer the diesels away. This is something which would be possible now, but will no doubt be made a whole lot easier when the Manchester (Picc)-Bolton-Preston route goes electric, and four train duties (approx) which are currently supplied from bases in the Manchester area, change to electric as a consequence.
I've worked for a bus company where any vehicle returning to depot would have its tank topped up, even if it had only been out for only half an hour or so. I've also worked for coach companies with just three or four coaches, but which had their own fuel facilities, nevertheless. The situation of a DMU being refuelled only every second or third day (or whenever) seems to be taking unnecessary risks, although I have to say that the system seems to work, as I've not heard of a DMU actually running out.
Would diesel be misappropriated if it were available at smaller bases?

 

[Shrimper]

So, as far as drivers are concerned, Stockport is a traincrew depot in all but name..

Not really, no; because it only applies to selected early duties, is only of use to certain drivers and has to be authorised by the supervisors at Piccadilly. It's a fairly unique circumstance; I can't do the same at Longsight or Oxford Road if my first train works from there.

So what would be likely to be checked on a 323 stabled at Longsight which wouldn't get checked at Stockport, without actually taking the unit into the workshop? Or are you saying that any 323 arriving at Longsight is automatically sent into the workshop for a check, even though there would be a 50/50 chance that it would have received the same check only the night before?

No idea; I know the techs go round with checklists but I have no idea what they check. It isn't a 50/50 chance about the check though; the diagrams are designed so that units receive equal mileage over time, it isn't just control rolling a dice as to what unit goes where.

Stockport might be bigger as a whole than Buxton or Wigan, but the latter two do accommodate more diesels. I'm more critical of Buxton and Wigan being devoid of fuel than I am of Stockport. The lack of fuel at Stockport is a problem easily solved - simply transfer the diesels away. This is something which would be possible now, but will no doubt be made a whole lot easier when the Manchester (Picc)-Bolton-Preston route goes electric, and four train duties (approx) which are currently supplied from bases in the Manchester area, change to electric as a consequence.
I've worked for a bus company where any vehicle returning to depot would have its tank topped up, even if it had only been out for only half an hour or so. I've also worked for coach companies with just three or four coaches, but which had their own fuel facilities, nevertheless. The situation of a DMU being refuelled only every second or third day (or whenever) seems to be taking unnecessary risks, although I have to say that the system seems to work, as I've not heard of a DMU actually running out.
Would diesel be misappropriated if it were available at smaller bases?

Don't have any figures to hand, but Stockport does sees probably a similar amount of diesels as Wigan and Buxton, however many turn up after coupling in Piccadilly; similarly a few go out and split later in the day. There is also a late night fuel run which sees three units brought from Longsight in the dead of night after being fueled.

I know units on Newton Heath are automatically fuelled 95% of the time similar to bus depots; ditto any of our diesels which end up on Longsight, so I'd presume the diagrams are designed so that anything overnighting on Stockport has been topped up fairly recently and has done a fairly low mileage.

 

[Bovverboy]

Don't have any figures to hand, but Stockport does sees probably a similar amount of diesels as Wigan and Buxton

You're right - there is indeed no great difference in the total quantity of diesel stock stabled at those bases. I'd actually overlooked the Longsight to Stockport move, and I didn't know that it was a triple, but I would have guessed that it was more than a single.

That makes (I think) eight diesel units stabled at Stockport CMD most nights, compared with ten (presumably) at Buxton and eleven (probably) at Wigan.
The figure of ten at Buxton is obtained by presuming that all five sets stabled are double sprinters, and the figure of eleven at Wigan includes the units stabled in Platform 3 at Wallgate and Platforms 2/3 at North Western. Stabled in the carriage sidings I make to be seven, although if a class 153 is regarded as 0.5 of a unit, the sidings total reduces to 6.5.

however many turn up after coupling in Piccadilly

Actually, I'm pretty sure that only one set arrives at Stockport CMD after having been assembled at Picc, and that should be a triple. One other unit bound for Stockport CMD does combine with another at Picc, but subsequently drops it in platform 3A at Stockport, ready to work the 2234 to Wigan Wallgate.

similarly a few go out and split later in the day

Indeed. I had been aware that the 0605 Stockport to Liverpool was diagrammed for a single, but I'm never around early enough to see the other AM starts. I would guess that the other departures comprise two doubles (the ones which go ECS to New Mills Central) and a triple (the one which goes ECS to Piccadilly).

Do you know which depot provides the crews to staff the two 319s which stable at Preston?

 

[Crossforth]

Went past Allerton earlier this afternoon and spotted a ROG class 37 being coupled to 319431. I assume it's off back to Wolverton for repairs after it's little fire?

 

[PHILIPE]

Went past Allerton earlier this afternoon and spotted a ROG class 37 being coupled to 319431. I assume it's off back to Wolverton for repairs after it's little fire?

Currently en route to Wolverton hauled by 37884