Not charged a penalty!!!

[harvey87]

My question may not be a typical one, but hopefully someone can share a similar experience.

I was stopped by an inspector a few days ago, who was doing a regular fare check to a lot of people at the DLR station (I was checked many times before without any issues). He asked me if I had touched out already, to which I answered yes as I did it on the reader just before the exit. Then he kept my contactless debit card in his hands and started asking questions: where I was coming from and where did I touch out. I answered obviously, but he was behaving like I have done something wrong. Eventually he let me go and told me that I forgot to touch in at the start of my journey (he did not take any details like my name, address, etc, although my debit card had my name on it obviously).

Later I checked my TFL online account and he was right, I did not see the start of the journey. Still not sure if I really forgot to touch in or just didn’t touch the card properly…

I am happy he let me go, but still concerned if they will follow up and issue a penalty or worse - open a criminal case.

Anyone can advise if I should be worried about potential letter from TFL?

 

[MikeWh]

My question may not be a typical one, but hopefully someone can share a similar experience.

I was stopped by an inspector a few days ago, who was doing a regular fare check to a lot of people at the DLR station (I was checked many times before without any issues). He asked me if I had touched out already, to which I answered yes as I did it on the reader just before the exit. Then he kept my contactless debit card in his hands and started asking questions: where I was coming from and where did I touch out. I answered obviously, but he was behaving like I have done something wrong. Eventually he let me go and told me that I forgot to touch in at the start of my journey (he did not take any details like my name, address, etc, although my debit card had my name on it obviously).

Later I checked my TFL online account and he was right, I did not see the start of the journey. Still not sure if I really forgot to touch in or just didn’t touch the card properly…

I am happy he let me go, but still concerned if they will follow up and issue a penalty or worse - open a criminal case.

Anyone can advise if I should be worried about potential letter from TFL?

You won't hear anything further over this incident.

As it was a DLR station it's likely that there were no gates, just validators. If he'd seen you touch out, or suspected that you might have done, then he needed to ask because they are not allowed to check contactless cards once you are out of the system. There is no way that he would know whether your touch was entry or exit because the validator just says card accepted. Nothing is written to the contactless card either, so unless he had been trailing you or someone else was involved, there's no way of knowing. It's possible that he meant to get to you before you touched the validator, in which case you have got away with not getting a revenue check failure. That is a maximum fare which will not be cancelled without a very good reason, and get three of them will mean your card will be blacklisted. I'd take this as a wake up call.

If you hadn't touched in then I assume that your touch out would have been recorded as an entry. You can call the helpdesk and tell them where you started the journey and they should adjust the incomplete journey so you are just charged for what you did.

 

[harvey87]

Thank you.

Are their validators just checking the contactless is accepted or not? I assume they are at least showing the journey is open or closed, because after I told I touched out he scanned my card and saw something doesn’t match. Only after that he started asking me those questions.

This is something I really don’t like about DLRs. There are no gates at almost all stations and anyone can forget touching in or out because of running for the train, being lost in their thoughts or watching a movie after a long day at work… And if you get inspected in such occasion you are treated like a scammer. This really hurts when you are an honest traveler and a major taxpayer.

I understand I should be more careful next time, but when someone uses the train almost every day a lot of things are done subconsciously. Looks like I was really lucky this time as I touched out before the inspection, otherwise I could have been fined or even worse - prosecuted, which would destroy a lot of things. But I really don’t want to be lucky, I want to have the gates everywhere so that the risk of forgetting to buy a ticket or forgetting to touch in or out is eliminated. This would also make it easier to catch the real scammers who would need to jump over the gates to get to the train.

I would really like to hear others’ opinion about this. I personally feel like someone assumes that I don’t have the right to forget touching in or out at the station which has no gates, and that someone also has the right to fine me or prosecute me for not doing so. I pay TFL for a service, so I think it should be organized in way that does not have “catches” but rather provides a relaxing experience.

 

[PeterC]

When you say "contactless" do you mean a debit card issued by you bank or an Oyster card. When people here say "contactless" they usually mean, specifically, touching a debit or credit card on the reader but your description sounds more like a Oyster card.

Some DLR stations do have their readers in sub optimal locations. On several occasions over the years I have had to go back and look for one.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you.

Are their validators just checking the contactless is accepted or not? I assume they are at least showing the journey is open or closed, because after I told I touched out he scanned my card and saw something doesn’t match. Only after that he started asking me those questions.

AIUI (with the exception of buses), a revenue staff check of a contactless debit card does not (cannot) show if you are in or out of the system in real time. It is only determined after the event in the back office processing, what @MikeWh called a “revenue check failure”.

 

[harvey87]

AIUI (with the exception of buses), a revenue staff check of a contactless debit card does not (cannot) show if you are in or out of the system in real time.

Hmm… If revenue staff check doesn’t show in or out then how did he guess that I forgot to touch in? I did not tell him that, I didn’t even know that I had forgotten to touch in until I checked it later online through my TFL account. So the question is:
1. Was it OK that the inspector scanned my card after I told him I had touched out
2. How did he understand that I forgot to touch in? Something must have told him that the journey is yet incomplete…

 

[NorthWestRover]

There are no gates at almost all stations and anyone can forget touching in or out because of running for the train, being lost in their thoughts or watching a movie after a long day at work

Oh come on. There are no gates anywhere on Metrolink, so I'll try that next time I'm there. The fares on these systems are so reasonable now, there's no excuse really.

I would really like to hear others’ opinion about this. I personally feel like someone assumes that I don’t have the right to forget touching in or out at the station which has no gates, and that someone also has the right to fine me or prosecute me for not doing so. I pay TFL for a service, so I think it should be organized in way that does not have “catches” but rather provides a relaxing experience.

You asked for opinions...

1. You don't have the right to forget to touch in or out. It's part of the deal.
2. You're not paying TFL for anything if you don't tap in or out.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is something I really don’t like about DLRs. There are no gates at almost all stations and anyone can forget touching in or out because of running for the train

Never happened to me and I live on the DLR and use it almost daily.

, being lost in their thoughts or watching a movie after a long day at work… And if you get inspected in such occasion you are treated like a scammer. This really hurts when you are an honest traveler and a major taxpayer.

But you weren’t treated like a scammer.

Looks like I was really lucky this time as I touched out before the inspection, otherwise I could have been fined or even worse - prosecuted, which would destroy a lot of things.

It wouldn’t really, a Bylaw conviction will not affect the lives of the vast majority of people so convicted.

But I really don’t want to be lucky, I want to have the gates everywhere so that the risk of forgetting to buy a ticket or forgetting to touch in or out is eliminated. This would also make it easier to catch the real scammers who would need to jump over the gates to get to the train.

You want all stations to be staffed (or staffed more heavily anyway) all the time then. You’ll need to pay quite a lot more for that.

I would really like to hear others’ opinion about this. I personally feel like someone assumes that I don’t have the right to forget touching in or out at the station which has no gates, and that someone also has the right to fine me or prosecute me for not doing so. I pay TFL for a service, so I think it should be organized in way that does not have “catches” but rather provides a relaxing experience.

You aren’t paying TfL for a service when you literally forget to pay for it.

 

[harvey87]

Never happened to me and I live on the DLR and use it almost daily.

Good for you, but that does not mean everyone is the same. A lot of normal people forget scanning unintentionally.

But you weren’t treated like a scammer.

I guess I would if I wasn’t lucky to touch out (which turned out to be touch in). The question is the risk of not having the gates…

It wouldn’t really, a Bylaw conviction will not affect the lives of the vast majority of people so convicted.

Strongly disagree. One works as a teacher or, say, in finance, or other strongly regulated area, he/she will have a lot of trouble with their carrier after having a criminal case (being fined is OK). Again, this is about taking a huge risk by unintentionally forgeting to touch in, which regular gates at the station would eliminate.

You want all stations to be staffed (or staffed more heavily anyway) all the time then. You’ll need to pay quite a lot more for that.

No need for more staff, just gates, like at most of the other stations. And btw public transport is not cheap at all, and I don’t think adding gates in DLR stations will cost a fortune on TFL. There are many articles how open gates cost millions on UK taxpayeres, so for me it is a win/win to have gates at DLR stations.

You aren’t paying TfL for a service when you literally forget to pay for it.

That’s not correct. Quite the contrary I paid the maximum fare (5-6 times more than my journey was) because I forgot to touch in (you might have missed some parts of the conversation). And tbh, I don’t get how that contradicts to my point of having gates at DLR. This significantly reduces the risk of people forgetting to touch in/out and also provies extra security against scammers.

 

[MikeWh]

Hmm… If revenue staff check doesn’t show in or out then how did he guess that I forgot to touch in? I did not tell him that, I didn’t even know that I had forgotten to touch in until I checked it later online through my TFL account. So the question is:
1. Was it OK that the inspector scanned my card after I told him I had touched out
2. How did he understand that I forgot to touch in? Something must have told him that the journey is yet incomplete…

1. I don't think so, but I wasn't there.
2. Lucky guess. He wouldn't (couldn't) know.

That’s not correct. Quite the contrary I paid the maximum fare (5-6 times more than my journey was) because I forgot to touch in (you might have missed some parts of the conversation). And tbh, I don’t get how that contradicts to my point of having gates at DLR. This significantly reduces the risk of people forgetting to touch in/out and also provies extra security against scammers.

I've already said that if you call the helpdesk they will adjust that charge when you tell them the other end. In the meantime, can you copy your journey history for that day on here? I'd like to check the exact sequence of events and advise you properly about what to do/say.

 

[harvey87]

In the meantime, can you copy your journey history for that day on here? I'd like to check the exact sequence of events and advise you properly about what to do/say.

It looks like this (I am not mentioning the station name & time for security reasons):

DLR station name
|
Missing touch
X.XX £


(Time) DLR station name
|
(Time + 1min) Revenue Inspection, DLR station name
Ref: XXXX/XXXXXX
|
(???????) Missing touch


Your card was checked by a revenue inspector

 

[Watershed]

A lot of normal people forget scanning unintentionally.

Whilst there are certainly some people who are predisposed to being careless, I think the presence of ticket machines and Oyster readers serves as a sufficient reminder for the vast majority of people that they need to pay - e.g. by touching in their Oyster/contactless card.

Ultimately, whether it's right or wrong, TfL simply do not have the funding to install gates - they aren't even proposing it. If you want to use TfL services, it's your own responsibility to make sure you pay when you do so.

Strongly disagree. One works as a teacher or, say, in finance, or other strongly regulated area, he/she will have a lot of trouble with their carrier after having a criminal case (being fined is OK). Again, this is about taking a huge risk by unintentionally forgeting to touch in, which regular gates at the station would eliminate.

It is very unlikely that having a Byelaws conviction would prove an unassailable hindrance in either career. Is it something you would need to notify and explain? Yes, but it's not the end of your career.

 

[AlterEgo]

Good for you, but that does not mean everyone is the same. A lot of normal people forget scanning unintentionally.

I’m sure they do, and that’s their fault, the same way some people forget what the speed limit is (as I have found out twice in my life, expensively!). I can’t say I have a tremendous amount of sympathy.

Strongly disagree. One works as a teacher or, say, in finance, or other strongly regulated area, he/she will have a lot of trouble with their carrier after having a criminal case (being fined is OK).

You disagree because you don’t actually know how a Bylaw conviction is, for example, not recordable on the PNC. It has only a minimal impact on most people and the most important aspect of it from a revenue protection point of view is a court order enforcing collection of the outstanding fare plus compensation, along with deterrence. As @Watershed explains a Bylaw offence is not going to destroy or even significantly impact anyone’s career.

Again, this is about taking a huge risk by unintentionally forgeting to touch in, which regular gates at the station would eliminate.

No need for more staff, just gates, like at most of the other stations.

Gates need to be staffed. Every gateline needs a member of staff available to sort out people who are “trapped”, both for customer service and to comply with fire regulations. That’s why, for example, Woolwich Arsenal has the secondary entrance closed half the time - staffing.

You can’t have barriers at somewhere like Pontoon Dock, because there are no staff. Want barriers? It’ll need a member of staff available in some way.

And btw public transport is not cheap at all, and I don’t think adding gates in DLR stations will cost a fortune on TFL. There are many articles how open gates cost millions on UK taxpayeres, so for me it is a win/win to have gates at DLR stations.

Why do you think they don’t install gates? Might it have something to do with the fact they…all need to have staff available?

That’s not correct. Quite the contrary I paid the maximum fare (5-6 times more than my journey was) because I forgot to touch in (you might have missed some parts of the conversation).

Sure, and what if you forget both ends? I don’t really see how you can feel aggrieved here. Paying is your responsibility and if you don’t touch in then you don’t have a ticket or authority to travel, although I’m sure you appreciate it. What next? There should be barriers at the off licence so you don’t forget to pay for your shopping?

And tbh, I don’t get how that contradicts to my point of having gates at DLR. This significantly reduces the risk of people forgetting to touch in/out and also provies extra security against scammers.

Gates really do not provide any protection against people operating scams.

 

[madjack]

The card readers on DLR give a very loud bleep when anyone uses them, which has been a helpful reminder for me a couple of times when I might have forgotten.

 

[swt_passenger]

It looks like this (I am not mentioning the station name & time for security reasons):

DLR station name
|
Missing touch
X.XX £


(Time) DLR station name
|
(Time + 1min) Revenue Inspection, DLR station name
Ref: XXXX/XXXXXX
|
(???????) Missing touch


Your card was checked by a revenue inspector

Is the first station your normal origin? That looks to me like they’ve automatically corrected your journey from their records?

 

[harvey87]

Oh come on. There are no gates anywhere on Metrolink, so I'll try that next time I'm there. The fares on these systems are so reasonable now, there's no excuse really.

Not sure what you are trying to say, but from the fact that I had touched out you should have understood that nobody is trying to avoid payments or find excuses here.

You asked for opinions...

1. You don't have the right to forget to touch in or out. It's part of the deal.
2. You're not paying TFL for anything if you don't tap in or out.

I got you opinion thank you. I agree it’s part of the deal and I will make sure I keep my end. In the end of the day I have been using this service for many years they have all my history. I am sure it shows a clearly. But I still have my opinion about the gates and I would really like to have them.

Whilst there are certainly some people who are predisposed to being careless, I think the presence of ticket machines and Oyster readers serves as a sufficient reminder for the vast majority of people that they need to pay - e.g. by touching in their Oyster/contactless card.

Ultimately, whether it's right or wrong, TfL simply do not have the funding to install gates - they aren't even proposing it. If you want to use TfL services, it's your own responsibility to make sure you pay when you do so.

I don’t have the information Tfl has the funds or not. Just saying my opinion and wanted to hear others as well. I got a few opinions ))

It is very unlikely that having a Byelaws conviction would prove an unassailable hindrance in either career. Is it something you would need to notify and explain? Yes, but it's not the end of your career.

I am not a lawyer but I know some companies are very alergic about criminal convictions.

I’m sure they do, and that’s their fault, the same way some people forget what the speed limit is (as I have found out twice in my life, expensively!). I can’t say I have a tremendous amount of sympathy.


You disagree because you don’t actually know how a Bylaw conviction is, for example, not recordable on the PNC. It has only a minimal impact on most people and the most important aspect of it from a revenue protection point of view is a court order enforcing collection of the outstanding fare plus compensation, along with deterrence. As @Watershed explains a Bylaw offence is not going to destroy or even significantly impact anyone’s career.

Yes I don’t know much Bylaw, but even it is just something you meed to declare why having it. Many competitive organization are very alergic to such things. Anyway I would be happy to know an honest mistake does not have a too painful impact.

Gates need to be staffed. Every gateline needs a member of staff available to sort out people who are “trapped”, both for customer service and to comply with fire regulations. That’s why, for example, Woolwich Arsenal has the secondary entrance closed half the time - staffing.

You can’t have barriers at somewhere like Pontoon Dock, because there are no staff. Want barriers? It’ll need a member of staff available in some way.


Why do you think they don’t install gates? Might it have something to do with the fact they…all need to have staff available?


Sure, and what if you forget both ends? I don’t really see how you can feel aggrieved here. Paying is your responsibility and if you don’t touch in then you don’t have a ticket or authority to travel, although I’m sure you appreciate it. What next? There should be barriers at the off licence so you don’t forget to pay for your shopping?

Believe me I understand your view and don’t want to make this a philosophical discussion. I just know that if there are gates there is no way I forget to touch in/out. In fact even without gates I am confident I touch in 99.99% of cases, I have been doing it for many years. But clearly gates eliminate that 0.01% for people who are honest travelers.

Gates really do not provide any protection against people operating scams.

 

[NorthWestRover]

anyone can forget touching in or out because of running for the train, being lost in their thoughts or watching a movie after a long day at work

Not sure what you are trying to say, but from the fact that I had touched out you should have understood that nobody is trying to avoid payments or find excuses here

That it is totally absolving yourself (or anyone else) of basic responsibility to pay for a journey when getting a ticket (or tapping in/out) which is a pretty basic part of making a journey. I don't forget to pay in a supermarket or in a cafe cos I was in rush, lost in my thoughts (lol) or bizarrely watching a movie (whether after a long day at work or not). I also wouldn't forget if i had to buy a paper ticket.

 

[harvey87]

While I appreciate everyone’s opinion, time and efforts to help, I just feel this discussion diverged from the origional pusrpose, which was just to make sure Tfl will not make a big deal from a possible honest mistake of forgetting to touch in. I am fine to be charged a few pounds more once in many years.

That it is totally absolving yourself (or anyone else) of basic responsibility to pay for a journey when getting a ticket (or tapping in/out) which is a pretty basic part of making a journey. I don't forget to pay in a supermarket or in a cafe cos I was in rush, lost in my thoughts (lol) or bizarrely watching a movie (whether after a long day at work or not). I also wouldn't forget if i had to buy a paper ticket.

OK good for you. But you are clearly out of context here. I don’t need your moral lessions tbh, you should find a different chat for that. You clearly have a wrong picture about me. I also do all that staff daily and never forgot everything. The difference between you and me is that I do think I can forget a thing once in my life unintentionally. Like I said already, I asked a simple question initially, but the chat diverted from it’s original intension.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Fair enough. You broadened the thread way beyond advice by asking what people thought of the issues you had raised. I commented ( I'm not an expert so I never give advice on this thread) but I'll not add anything else and I'll leave it to the experts to give you advice. Good luck.