Not Making Best Use of Platforms At Newport for Changing.

[Envoy]

I don’t think that things are being made easy at Newport for passengers changing trains. The easiest platforms to change trains at Newport is the island platform 2 and 3 with 2 normally being westbound trains and 3 being eastbound trains. P1 is normally used for westbound trains that can't be accommodated on P2 and P4 for those that can’t be accommodated on P3. P1 might also be used for late running services that can’t make it to Cardiff & back to form services going east again.

As an example:-
This morning1B05 London > Swansea calls at P2 at 9.27. P3 has 1L12 Carmarthen > London at 9.30.

At 9.32 1F06 Portsmouth > Cardiff is on P2. At 9.36 1W92 Cardiff > Holyhead is on P4.

So, we have a situation where westbound and eastbound London trains call at the island platform yet nobody is going to change trains between these services. For both the westbound train from London and that which has come from Portsmouth, the train that people would want to change to is 1W92 Cardiff > Holyhead = the very train that requires people to cross the bridge and get to P4.

So, why can’t 1L12 Carmarthen > London be accommodated on P4 being as nobody will be changing and 1W92 use P3 to make an easy level switch of trains for those passengers coming from southern England/London wishing to head up The Marches?

I don’t think it is an advertised connection at Newport between the train from Portsmouth and that going to Holyhead being as the timings are so close. That is a pity as the trains to north Wales are only very other hour usually. Surely the schedules can be tweaked to have an advertised connection at Newport for these services - especially if the island platform is used for passengers to swap services?

Surely the rule should be that all trains heading up The Marches will use P3 at Newport.

 

[The Planner]

I don’t think that things are being made easy at Newport for passengers changing trains. The easiest platforms to change trains at Newport is the island platform 2 and 3 with 2 normally being westbound trains and 3 being eastbound trains. P1 is normally used for westbound trains that can't be accommodated on P2 and P4 for those that can’t be accommodated on P3. P1 might also be used for late running services that can’t make it to Cardiff & back to form services going east again.

As an example:-
This morning1B05 London > Swansea calls at P2 at 9.27. P3 has 1L12 Carmarthen > London at 9.30.

At 9.32 1F06 Portsmouth > Cardiff is on P2. At 9.36 1W92 Cardiff > Holyhead is on P4.

So, we have a situation where westbound and eastbound London trains call at the island platform yet nobody is going to change trains between these services. For both the westbound train from London and that which has come from Portsmouth, the train that people would want to change to is 1W92 Cardiff > Holyhead = the very train that requires people to cross the bridge and get to P4.

So, why can’t 1L12 Carmarthen > London be accommodated on P4 being as nobody will be changing and 1W92 use P3 to make an easy level switch of trains for those passengers coming from southern England/London wishing to head up The Marches?

I don’t think it is an advertised connection at Newport between the train from Portsmouth and that going to Holyhead being as the timings are so close. That is a pity as the trains to north Wales are only very other hour usually. Surely the schedules can be tweaked to have an advertised connection at Newport for these services - especially if the island platform is used for passengers to swap services?

1L12 and 1W92 are both booked P3 from around October.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a fair demand for trains coming from Portsmouth-Cardiff to change to trains along Welsh border towards Chester and NW at Newport.

The simple reason is that the normal alternative, changing at Bristol and taking Cross Country via Birmingham is usually priced higher (and the voyagers are often only 4 or 5car and crowded)

Just tried a random ticket midweek fortnights time (using forums split ticket)
Trowbridge-Chester via Newport, 09:20 out 18:22 back £62
TRO-Chester via Birmingham 10:09 out 17:56 back £74.29

 

[asdirective]

So, why can’t 1L12 Carmarthen > London be accommodated on P4 being as nobody will be changing and 1W92 use P3 to make an easy level switch of trains for those passengers coming from southern England/London wishing to head up The Marches?

Newport only has dispatch staff on platforms 2 & 3. Units can be self dispatched by a guard on platforms 1 & 4. But GWR IETs, HSTs and TfW Mk4s must be dispatched by platform staff, so they are generally booked to used 2 & 3 to save dispatch staff constantly having to go over the footbridge. It's then a case of fitting everything else round this.

If the station were fully staffed, you would have more flexibility, but it's a case of would all 3 operators be willing to pay for it?

 

[Envoy]

1L12 and 1W92 are both booked P3 from around October.

But if the Carmarthen to London is running late, would they then unfortunately send the Cardiff to Holyhead into P4?

There is a fair demand for trains coming from Portsmouth-Cardiff to change to trains along Welsh border towards Chester and NW at Newport.

The simple reason is that the normal alternative, changing at Bristol and taking Cross Country via Birmingham is usually priced higher (and the voyagers are often only 4 or 5car and crowded)

Just tried a random ticket midweek fortnights time (using forums split ticket)
Trowbridge-Chester via Newport, 09:20 out 18:22 back £62
TRO-Chester via Birmingham 10:09 out 17:56 back £74.29

I hear that tourists from Bath heading for north Wales are also changing at Newport.

The demand for services on The Marches from Brit’s living in southern England is also likely to increase once TfW have their fleet of 197’s in operation along with the loco hauled Mk 4’s with dining on some trains. (Many are probably put off at present by the overcrowded old sprinters on The Marches). Hopefully, things will now rapidly improve.

Newport only has dispatch staff on platforms 2 & 3. Units can be self dispatched by a guard on platforms 1 & 4. But GWR IETs, HSTs and TfW Mk4s must be dispatched by platform staff, so they are generally booked to used 2 & 3 to save dispatch staff constantly having to go over the footbridge. It's then a case of fitting everything else round this.

If the station were fully staffed, you would have more flexibility, but it's a case of would all 3 operators be willing to pay for it?

Well, they can get some exercise and go over the bridge instead of making the passengers do it with all their luggage.

 

[DelW]

Unless the problem has been dealt with since I was last there, connections via the footbridge are made more awkward by having to dodge a number of buckets and yellow "wet floor" bollards, necessitated by the amount of rainwater coming in through the leaky roof.

 

[asdirective]

Well, they can get some exercise and go over the bridge instead of making the passengers do it with all their luggage.

There just isn't enough staff there to dispatch from P4 as well as 2&3 with the current service frequency, without causing delays to trains.

During the day, passenger assistance is currently outsourced to agencies, as the staff there are too busy to do that as well.

Ideally, given the increase of people using the station, you'd think they would increase the staffing levels, but that hasn't happened. Probably complicated by the fact that TfW manage the station, but GWR and XC use it as well. So, who pays for the extra staff?

 

[The Planner]

But if the Carmarthen to London is running late, would they then unfortunately send the Cardiff to Holyhead into P4?

But perturbation is a fact of railway life. There will be millions of examples of having to re-platform because something is late.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There just isn't enough staff there

Pretty standard problem at major TfW-managed stations.

 

[Parallel]

Although cross-platform connections are ideal, platform 4 is very narrow and not really ideal for the large volumes of passengers who board the trains to London. It’s bad enough with some 2/3 car DMU services!

 

[Envoy]

I do realise that P4 is narrow but it is a full length platform so hopefully the passengers would spread out?

Just had another quick look at Newport regarding changing from The Marches to services to Bristol Temple Meads & beyond - southbound passengers.

12.37 Manchester > Carmarthen P2.
12.42 Cardiff > Portsmouth P4 yet P3 seems to be vacant.

So again, we have a situation where the most likely movement of passengers changing trains - between The Marches route and trains to Bristol & beyond is forcing them to use the bridge rather than a flat across island platform transfer.

 

[Topological]

I do see the point about cross platform interchange at Newport, but it also feels naturally like the use of P4 for the Marches trains and P3 for anything heading towards Severn Tunnel Junction is right somehow. Towards Cardiff everything uses 2, but that is more turn up and go so the use of a single platform makes sense.

It would be nice to get more co-ordination, but 5 minute connections are asking for trouble and probably the railway should be putting people off attempting them.

 

[rcro]

Whilst platforms 2 and 3 are still a building site, maybe platform 4 is a better place to wait - at least there’s somewhere dry to stand/sit when it’s raining, and a bit more space to spread out.
Last few times I’ve gone through to Bristol have been P3 instead of P4 and I’d have preferred P4

 

[markymark2000]

The issue with P4 I find is that the trains don't stop at the car stop markers so passengers which do spread out to the supposed car stop marker, you end up having to walk all the way back to the train so spreading out is useless unless it's a 9 car and guaranteed to take up the full platform. Even 5 car trains I've been on, they stopped at the 2 car stop marker. That's a common theme at Newport P4, caught me out a good few times so now I won't go up the platform.

It would be nice to get more co-ordination, but 5 minute connections are asking for trouble and probably the railway should be putting people off attempting them.

5 min connections at Newport are just pure daft now considering the amount of people changing trains there and given the delays on the Marches, even just a 1 min delay would massively hinder the connections. GWR and TFW won't hold for eachother either at Newport because of capacity, everyone looking after themselves and no one wanting to pay fines (understandable but not passenger friendly) so I think it is completely daft to have connections at Newport of less than 10 minutes.

 

[sd0733]

GWR and TFW won't hold for eachother either at Newport because of capacity, everyone looking after themselves and no one wanting to pay fines (understandable but not passenger friendly) so I think it is completely daft to have connections at Newport of less than 10 minutes.

Whilst I agree that the connection times are too short, The non holding of connections at Newport is simply not true. Both controls are pretty proactive and I've been held or had connections held for GWR/TFW connections both ways round. The last service has been held for quite long periods at Newport, but, whilst sometimes its not possible, even services during the day are held too.
The costs, AFAIK would go back to the original cause of the delay so aren't really a consideration for holding connections.

 

[markymark2000]

Whilst I agree that the connection times are too short, The non holding of connections at Newport is simply not true. Both controls are pretty proactive and I've been held or had connections held for GWR/TFW connections both ways round. The last service has been held for quite long periods at Newport, but, whilst sometimes its not possible, even services during the day are held too.
The costs, AFAIK would go back to the original cause of the delay so aren't really a consideration for holding connections.

I've watched it a number of times when on a TFW Marches train and the GWR connections pull out as the TFW train pulls in and that has included daytime's and evenings. I don't dispute that sometimes trains may be held but from my experience, it's not the norm. Perhaps it's just coincidence when I have seen it.

 

[sd0733]

I've watched it a number of times when on a TFW Marches train and the GWR connections pull out as the TFW train pulls in and that has included daytime's and evenings. I don't dispute that sometimes trains may be held but from my experience, it's not the norm. Perhaps it's just coincidence when I have seen it.

It isn't always done granted, but often there's another train it would delay which just stacks up the problem.
Newport is probably the station where its done the most of any I've come across.

 

[Envoy]

Let us hope that when they re-cast the timetables that they pay particular attention to the timings of trains for changing passengers at Newport. It must really stress passengers out if they know the connection time is tight and cause even more stress if they have to cross the bridge rather than transfer across the island. I guess ideally, a 13 or 14 minute gap should be allowed from an arriving train off-loading ‘changers’ to the one that they will be departing on. Having them change on the island will also reduce the time that they may have to ‘hold’ trains.

As I said earlier, the most likely ‘changers’ will be transferring on/off Marches line services and they should have priority for the island platform along with the trains going to/from Bristol/ Bath and Portsmouth plus those going to/from the south-west. The second priority services/changing times for the island platform would be the London trains. Passengers are least likely to change if using the Gloucester/ Cheltenham line as they are likely to have faster links to The Marches via Worcester & Ledbury or going west from Birmingham. Therefore I contend that if any trains are going to have to use P1 & P4 at Newport - it should be these.

It really is in the best interests of TfW & GWR to get this right as it will attract more passengers to these routes if the change time at Newport is not too tight but still slick enough so as not to leave people stuck on the station for an hour or so. With better and longer trains coming to The Marches plus the introduction of the Liverpool service - which I am sure will attract many passengers from the Bristol/Bath area as well as south Wales, revenue will increase.

 

[Kite159]

The issue with P4 I find is that the trains don't stop at the car stop markers so passengers which do spread out to the supposed car stop marker, you end up having to walk all the way back to the train so spreading out is useless unless it's a 9 car and guaranteed to take up the full platform. Even 5 car trains I've been on, they stopped at the 2 car stop marker. That's a common theme at Newport P4, caught me out a good few times so now I won't go up the platform.



5 min connections at Newport are just pure daft now considering the amount of people changing trains there and given the delays on the Marches, even just a 1 min delay would massively hinder the connections. GWR and TFW won't hold for eachother either at Newport because of capacity, everyone looking after themselves and no one wanting to pay fines (understandable but not passenger friendly) so I think it is completely daft to have connections at Newport of less than 10 minutes.

Especially if your train comes into P2 and you need to connect with something from P4 and you don't get near the front as most of the trains on P2 stop a fair few metres back from the steps.

 

[The Planner]

Let us hope that when they re-cast the timetables that they pay particular attention to the timings of trains for changing passengers at Newport. It must really stress passengers out if they know the connection time is tight and cause even more stress if they have to cross the bridge rather than transfer across the island. I guess ideally, a 13 or 14 minute gap should be allowed from an arriving train off-loading ‘changers’ to the one that they will be departing on. Having them change on the island will also reduce the time that they may have to ‘hold’ trains.

As I said earlier, the most likely ‘changers’ will be transferring on/off Marches line services and they should have priority for the island platform along with the trains going to/from Bristol/ Bath and Portsmouth plus those going to/from the south-west. The second priority services/changing times for the island platform would be the London trains. Passengers are least likely to change if using the Gloucester/ Cheltenham line as they are likely to have faster links to The Marches via Worcester & Ledbury or going west from Birmingham. Therefore I contend that if any trains are going to have to use P1 & P4 at Newport - it should be these.

It really is in the best interests of TfW & GWR to get this right as it will attract more passengers to these routes if the change time at Newport is not too tight but still slick enough so as not to leave people stuck on the station for an hour or so. With better and longer trains coming to The Marches plus the introduction of the Liverpool service - which I am sure will attract many passengers from the Bristol/Bath area as well as south Wales, revenue will increase.

14 minutes? No chance, even large stations sit around 12 minutes. Newport isnt going to become a pivot point for the timetable, especially with the overall interactions further up the GWML.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Newport only has dispatch staff on platforms 2 & 3. Units can be self dispatched by a guard on platforms 1 & 4. But GWR IETs, HSTs and TfW Mk4s must be dispatched by platform staff, so they are generally booked to used 2 & 3 to save dispatch staff constantly having to go over the footbridge. It's then a case of fitting everything else round this.

If the station were fully staffed, you would have more flexibility, but it's a case of would all 3 operators be willing to pay for it?

Really? Every time there’s a departure from Platform 1 it always seems to be a GWR HST. It’s rare there’s anything else.

 

[Envoy]

14 minutes? No chance, even large stations sit around 12 minutes. Newport isnt going to become a pivot point for the timetable, especially with the overall interactions further up the GWML.

Yes, I am aware of the constraint of getting a slot to cross the WCML at Crewe and this obviously determines timings at Newport. That being so, let us hope that the GWR services at Newport can provide a ‘good match’ for changes to/fromThe Marches - especially for the north Wales trains which don’t have the ‘Crewe slot problem'.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, I am aware of the constraint of getting a slot to cross the WCML at Crewe and this obviously determines timings at Newport. That being so, let us hope that the GWR services at Newport can provide a ‘good match’ for changes to/fromThe Marches - especially for the north Wales trains which don’t have the ‘Crewe slot problem'.

Those GWR services that have to hit Reading to get the right slot as well.

 

[Envoy]

Those GWR services that have to hit Reading to get the right slot as well.

Many people travelling between London/Reading and Hereford will surely be inclined to use the direct services rather than go via Newport? I was thinking more in terms of the GWR services that go to Bristol Temple Meads and the south-west / Bath - Portsmouth.

As an example: 1F06 from Portsmouth arrives Newport at 9.32 (P2) whilst 1W92 Cardiff > Holyhead departs P4 at 9.36. So, we have a 4 minute change time with passengers having to run across the bridge to make it - if they risk such a connection. (P3 is occupied by a London bound train and P2 would have been occupied by a train from London prior to the arrival of 1F06 - yet nobody is going to get off a westbound train from London to then get a an eastbound service to London - yet they get the island). I just can’t believe that the Holyhead bound train could not have been timed to depart of few minutes later - which would also have given more leeway to those coming off the train from London wishing to head north on The Marches - who also have the inconvenience of having to cross the bridge to P4 - where in my opinion - the London bound train should have been.

Below I have given another two examples of near missed connections between Bristol Trains and Marcher trains. Surely, when designing the timetables, tweaks could be made by a few minutes to make connections possible at Newport?

9.42 sees the departure of 1F11 Cardiff to Portsmouth whilst 9.43 sees the arrival of 1V91 Holyhead to Cardiff.

12.07 sees the departure of 1W18 Milford to Manchester whilst 12.03 sees the arrival of 2U12 Plymouth to Cardiff.

 

[markymark2000]

9.42 sees the departure of 1F11 Cardiff to Portsmouth whilst 9.43 sees the arrival of 1V91 Holyhead to Cardiff.

12.07 sees the departure of 1W18 Milford to Manchester whilst 12.03 sees the arrival of 2U12 Plymouth to Cardiff.

These aren't booked connections so if passengers try to make those connections and miss them, that's their own business. Nothing to do with the railway.

 

[Envoy]

These aren't booked connections so if passengers try to make those connections and miss them, that's their own business. Nothing to do with the railway.

I know they are not booked connections because the time is too tight. Perhaps they rig the timetables like this on purpose to give masses of leeway so they don’t have to pay compensation to passengers for missed connections?

 

[markymark2000]

I know they are not booked connections because the time is too tight. Perhaps they rig the timetables like this on purpose to give masses of leeway so they don’t have to pay compensation to passengers for missed connections?

I doubt it is fully that. It will mostly just be trains trying to not lose their slots. The GWR has to fit into gaps at Bristol Temple Meads and TFW has to fit into slots at Cardiff, Shrewsbury and Crewe.