Nottingham-Glasgow for Northern

[daccer]

It seems to me that Northern may be missing a slight opportunity to run a long distance Notts-Glasgow service via Leeds and the S+C. I know that there was an open access operators looking at the route previously. They currently have services on most of the route broken into segments so linking these up and extending to Glasgow shouldnt be impossible. A through train would offer some additional travel opportunities for several major conurbations and also provide extra trains and destinations for the S+C communities.

Northern currently have 3 class 180's on their books which arent being used for what they were designed for and 2 remain up for grabs (I believe) off hire. It could be marketed as a fast premium service with the added bonus of traversing one of England's most beautiful lines. It does seem a better use for Adelantes than pottering around on commuter routes. It would also provide competition to established northern england-scotland routes such as Tpe and open up through journeys from Notts, Sheffield and Leeds to name but a few.

Just a thought and it can only be a matter of time before additional Anglo-Scottish routes happen so why not this one - comments please.

 

[tbtc]

As far as I know, the 180s are National Express ones on loan to Northern until NXEC get their Lincoln (etc) paths, so there's not scope to use them longer term.

 

[yorkie]

Are you suggesting combining a Nottingham-Leeds and a Leeds-Carlisle working and Northern running an additional train to Glasgow via Dumfries? If so, can you say where the stock might come from, and are you sure that this line is profitable and doesn't require subsidy? Also are paths likely to be available?

Or are you suggesting that NT ask FSR to take over one of their paths? I doubt TOCs can do that, it almost certainly has to go through the DfT.

 

[Daimler]

I would love this if it was to happen - a ride over the S&C in a comfortable train would be great, and would provide some new travel opportunities for people.

Whether it would be a profitable venture, I don't know...

 

[me123]

Glasgow-Leeds alone, as I've said before, would definitely be profitable. The current travel options are poor, requiring a change at Edinburgh all but twice a day, and often an additional change at York. The journey time is really long because of the one hour+ you spend trundling between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and a change at Edinburgh for someone who doesn't know the station can be daunting.

A lot of passengers must want to go to Leeds; I can think of at least 6 people I know who would regularly use the service! I'm not sure if the extension to Nottingham is viable, and it may well be a waste when it could provide an additional Glasgow-Leeds. For that reason, I hope Glasgow Trains comes to fruition.

Glasgow Trains also want to start the direct link to Liverpool; again I think this would be valuable for both cities. I wish them every success with this venture, as I know that both services would be well used. However, they still claim that they're launching this year, so things may have fallen through or be put on hold. I really would like to see this link, however, and it could be a fantastic place to release some 180s (if they're going to work, that is!)

 

[driver9000]

Northern Spirit already tried running to Glasgow over the S&C several years ago and it wasnt worth it for the few passengers it actually carried north of Carlisle. The service ran using 158s (maroon liveried TransPennine Express) I think it took well over 4hrs end to end.

The 180s Northern currently use are on sublease from NXEC and will be gone in June 2010, and with the maximum speed on the S&C being 60mph (less than a 180 is currently running at with Northern) the timings wouldnt be that benficial unless Leeds-Glasgow via the ECML takes a long time.

 

[me123]

I think with improved journey times Carlisle-Leeds (initially obtained by omitting the smaller stops), and the better speeds now possible North of Carlisle you could do it. There is definitely demand for this journey, but at the moment the options available to the passenger aren't great (either an expensive and long route down the ECML, or a cheap but infrequent and longer route via Carlisle). I'm sure that a direct service running fast down the WCML to Carlisle, and a limited stop across the S&C line would provide a great benefit for passengers.

For reference, journeys are about the same length but the change at Carlisle adds considerably to journey time. I'm confident that a limited stop service and some future speed increases on the S&C route could bring the times much lower and entice passengers. I think Northern Spirit's service failed because:

• They were extending existing local services to Glasgow. These must have taken an age, and I can see why they were longer than the ECML route. 75mph units on the WCML is ridiculous, and would now be impossible.
• 2tpd which are slower than the 2tpd via the ECML is barely competition if you ask me. A more frequent service (4tpd to start with?) would work IMO.
• The WCML took considerably longer anyway to Carlisle, so the journey wasn't feasible

Speed enhancements on the S&C once the service gets going would be invaluable to passengers in both Leeds and Glasgow, and I do think that it would be a very important service linking two very important cities. Remember as well that Route:Appleby tickets Glasgow-Leeds are much cheaper than Any Permitted tickets; customers in both cities will pick up on that on I'm sure!

 

[driver9000]

The NS service was in pre-EPS days so pathing a 90mph class 158 wasnt as much of a headache as it would be now, there were XC 158s in the system too in those days. The S&C is in the process of having Intermediate Block signalling comissioned along much of its length so adding the extra trains shouldnt be too difficult. I doubt Northern are even remotely interested in running to Scotland in the course of the current franchise as it takes it away from the local trains operator the DfT insisted it would be. You can guarantee if the DfT did allow the service it would run with 142s and be routed along the G&SW line in Scotland just keep out of Virgins hair!

Im not entirely convinced the demand for such a point to point journey would warrant a dedicated direct service which is basically what it would be as the S&C is a very rural route and if it ran missing out stops along that line it would need to guarantee good loadings from Scotland/Carlisle/Leeds to be viable.

A nice theory and would certainly secure the S&C as a mainline again but I really cant see it being a worthwhile venture for what I suspect would be potentially poor loadings, maybe if our rail operators werent so strangled by the DfT and were allowed to use their imaginations it would be given a chance - which is what privatisation was supposed to bring, but thats a different matter all together.

 

[fgwrich]

I hope Glasgow Trains do quite well as well, thats if & when they start of course... but as Glasgow Trains is from Renaissance Trains, who are partners with First Group on First Hull Trains & DB Regio for Wrexham & Shropshire then, i certainly think theyll do quite well...

Lets Just hope after the Grand Central Fiasco, DFT will still belive in Open Acess operaters... afterall, they did recently throw out proposals on the already crowded ECML from the open acess operater that goes by Platinum Trains... even though personally i thaught there wasnt a case for Aberdeen to Kings X Express services either...

http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html

rich

 

[jopsuk]

I'm not sure the DfT threw out Platinum becuase of any anti-OA attitude, but more because it was a ridiculous, nigh-on unworkable idea- especially the non-stop from Edinburgh south. And "Business class" only, too...

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure the DfT threw out Platinum becuase of any anti-OA attitude, but more because it was a ridiculous, nigh-on unworkable idea- especially the non-stop from Edinburgh south. And "Business class" only, too...

Erm, the DfT are as anti-open access as you can get! But how can the DfT throw them out? It was up to the ORR.

 

[me123]

Visiting Platinum Train's website, I think we can assume that it's not going ahead! Stupid idea anyway, it would never make money.

As for Glasgow Trains, I really do think it's feasible. Calls at Motherwell, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Appleby, Settle and express thereafter to Leeds provide:

• Enhanced service for, by far, the two busiest stations on the S&C line, supplementing the existing service.
• An additional service to Lockerbie, which is annoyingly difficult to get to from just about anywhere!
• The direct service I've been going on about.

 

[driver9000]

For historical record I have found the original Northern Spirit stopping pattern in the Winter 1999/2000 timetable. The service was 09:47 from Leeds and called at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby, Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow Central arriving at 13:47. The return journey left Glasgow at 14:10 (14:48 Saturday) and made the same stops arriving Leeds at 18:16 (19:05 Saturday). It would have to be a seriously fast train to be able to make the journey look more attractive and would have to do this on the WCML part of the journey before trundling down the S&C fitting in with the heavy freight traffic along that line.

Platinum trains was always going to be a non-starter with its ridiculous idea of Aberdeen-London 'business class' service. Glasgow Trains seem to have gone very quiet no mention of proposed timings or rolling stock plans Im doubtful that we will see their Liverpool/Blackpool service which seems to want to target the holiday traffic that heads for these places, certainly no bad thing if it cuts road congestion.

 

[bluenoxid]

Considering that NR have rejected a clockface hourly timetable for the S+C, it is unlikely they are going to be able to fit more trains on even with the additional signals

If the service wasn't a 158 it was usually terminated at Carlisle

The service suffered from chronic unreliability. EWS at the time were regularly having freights bottle it on various points on the line with increasing numbers of speed restrictions. There certainly is demand for extending from Carlisle to Glasgow but speeds would need to be increased to justify the route. Leeds - Glasgow passengers only have to change once either at York or Edinburgh thanks to Crosscountry running an hourly Edinburgh service through Leeds and NXEC running the odd Glasgow. I believe some XC's still serve Glasgow.

 

[Metroland]

There's two main problems: Firstly, the amount of coal traffic that passes along the Settle and Carlisle these days, with long signal section (many intermediate boxes have been abolished!) and removed loops. Also the line speed is only 60mph through most of the length of the line, whereas in steam days it was 80mph.

http://www.thesectionalappendix.co.uk/CLCG01.html

There are still some intermediate loops, but mostly these are turnbacks, but I guess it would be possible to put some of them back in.

But lets say the line could be upgraded to 90mph for meridian type units, what sort of timings are likely?

Leeds to Skipton is timed at 40 mins for a stopping train, so this could probably be brought down to 25 mins. Skipton to Hellifield is just under 10 miles, so that could be done in 10 minutes, Hellified to Appleby is about 45 miles but with a steep climb to Ais Gill part of the way, this could be brought down to maybe 38 minutes, and there is a further 30 miles to Carlisle which could be done in say 22 minutes. Then onto the WCML to Glasgow.

This would give timings as follows:

Thames-Clyde Express

St Pancras - 00:00
Leicester - 01:07
Derby - 01:27
Sheffield- 02:01
Leeds - 02:42/rev, dep 02:45
Skipton - 03:10
Hellifield - 03:20
Appleby - 03:58
Carlisle - 04:22
Glasgow - 05:36

And from Nottingham

Nottingham - 00:00
Sheffield - 00:50
Leeds - 01:31/rev, dep 01:35
Skipton - 02:00
Hellifield - 02:10
Appleby - 02:48
Carlisle - 03:12
Glasgow - 04:26

In 1962, the Thames Clyde took eight hours and 50 minutes for the complete journey, leaving London at 10.15, and then calling first at Leicester London Road at 11.52. Further stops were made at Trent and Chesterfield, before reaching Sheffield Midland station at 13.19, and Leeds City at 14.25 - so this latter stage of 39 miles took over an hour as a result of subsidence-induced speed restrictions. From here the train ran non-stop to Carlisle (Arrival 16.38 ). Three more stops were made at Dumfries, Annan, and Kilmarnock before reaching Glasgow, St Enoch at 19.05.

 

[ashworth]

Glasgow-Leeds alone, as I've said before, would definitely be profitable. The current travel options are poor, requiring a change at Edinburgh all but twice a day, and often an additional change at York. The journey time is really long because of the one hour+ you spend trundling between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and a change at Edinburgh for someone who doesn't know the station can be daunting.

A lot of passengers must want to go to Leeds; I can think of at least 6 people I know who would regularly use the service! I'm not sure if the extension to Nottingham is viable, and it may well be a waste when it could provide an additional Glasgow-Leeds. For that reason, I hope Glasgow Trains comes to fruition.

Traditionally, in the past, there was always quite a significant passenger flow between Nottingham and Glasgow but travel by rail in recent years has become more and more difficult and not an easy experience for elderly or unseasoned travellers.

Travelling from Nottingham to Glasgow currently is a lengthy journey with at least 2 changes of train now required for most journeys.
Changes of train are required at:
Sheffield or Derby and Edinburgh if travelling with XC.
Grantham and somewhere else further up the ECML if travelling via the ECML -the trains calling at Grantham do not run through to Glasgow.
Derby and Crewe if travelling via the WCML because there is no longer a through service from Nottingham to Crewe
Manchester and Preston because most of the TPE trains from Manchester at convenient times go to Edinburgh rather than Glasgow.

Now that the new Northern service is running hourly from Nottingham to Leeds changing at Leeds and Carlisle and going via the Settle and Carlise is one of the easier options from Nottingham. Unfortunately it is often difficult to get cheap AP fares via that route because Northern Trains do not issue them or reserve seats. Most of what I have said, to a slightly lesser extent, is also applicable to Sheffield which would also be served by through trains to Nottingham

 

[me123]

I believe some XC's still serve Glasgow.

2 a day. SB departures at 0600 and 0900. And return trips in the evening. The service isn't really great, though. It's run with 4/5 car voyagers and it gets extremely busy past Edinburgh! In fact, a remarkable number of passengers board the 0900 train at Haymarket, more than on a normal train. It probably runs about half full from Motherwell, although quite a few passengers are going only as far as Edinburgh.

Metroland, are the timings you're giving representative of current potential, or with the tracks upgraded to 90mph?

 

[Metroland]

Upgraded tracks to 90mph, which apparently most of the route can handle. It was built as a main line and as readers of the Hawes Junction crash of Christmas Eve 1910 will recall, had a fair old bit of traffic once, even in the dead of night.

But yep, currently the line is pretty much 60mph throughout.

 

[me123]

An upgrade then wouldn't be out of the question I wouldn't think. Fantastic diversionary route for WCML and improving the existing service would be reason enough I would think. If the route can handle 60mph, it shouldn't be a major job (unlike the WCML, which pretty much needed to be rebuilt from scratch). The potential is huge and it would be, IMO, a worthwhile investment if it's done when the tracks need renewed anyway.

 

[Metroland]

Be interesting to know what the speed potential is, I suspect some of it could handle well over 100mph, it seems far less twisty than the WCML. If HS2 got no further than Leeds, one idea would be to upgrade the S&C for more through trains to Scotland. They have just renewed a lot of the track as it goes for coal trains.

 

[tbtc]

One good thing about the proposals to close the S&C in the 1980s is that British Rail never downgraded it to single track (apart from Ribblehead), since they were wanting to close the whole thing.

I'm not convinced about a Nottingham to Glasgow service through Leeds at the moment (especially the hassle of pathing a reversal at Leeds), but a Leeds - Glasgow service could work. Trouble is that these days there's up to five trains every two hours north of Carlisle (hourly from Birmingham, every couple of hours from Manchester Airport and one or two and hour from Euston), meaning few paths spare.

Of course, Leeds to Glasgow can be done okay changing at Preston each hour, changing from the Northern Blackpool service.

 

[Waverley125]

the market for a leeds-Glasgow service is definitley there, and looking at some of the proposed timings coming in at 2hr 50 or so, it would definitley make sense. I think a southward extension to Nottingham could work, as long as it was a new, fast service rather than a connection to the existing Leeds-Nottingham service i.e. called Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield, Chesterfield only.

 

[tbtc]

I think a southward extension to Nottingham could work, as long as it was a new, fast service rather than a connection to the existing Leeds-Nottingham service i.e. called Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield, Chesterfield only.

The Leeds - Nottingham is still pretty "new" (under six months), and semi-fast.

If you can find a spare path for an additional service into/ out of Leeds, through Wakefield and Sheffield, then you're doing well

 

[WillPS]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Nottingham to Sheffield paths are also pretty tight, particularly at the Bradway side. Quite a few of Northern's trains have to run through Darnall to get in to Sheffield.