Off-peak ticket restrictions

[themiller]

Something that’s often come to mind and which I can’t find an answer to is how does a traveller know what trains/stations/whatever constitute peak time? For example, I get an off-peak ticket from station A to station B. On the return, I break my journey at station C which is unmanned. Where do I find what trains are barred to me without being excessed?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Peak refers to the ticket, not the time. The website Brfares.com shows ticket restrictions for each ticket between any pair of stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something that’s often come to mind and which I can’t find an answer to is how does a traveller know what trains/stations/whatever constitute peak time? For example, I get an off-peak ticket from station A to station B. On the return, I break my journey at station C which is unmanned. Where do I find what trains are barred to me without being excessed?

You can either use a journey planner and check the fare you paid comes up, or look at nationalrail.co.uk/<restriction code> where the restriction code is the one printed on the ticket (they usually are now I think). Or brfares.com, but that's a bit more technical.

 

[Watershed]

Something that’s often come to mind and which I can’t find an answer to is how does a traveller know what trains/stations/whatever constitute peak time?

The restrictions depend on the ticket you hold; trains aren't blanket 'peak' or 'off-peak'. Each Off-Peak ticket has a 2-character code which sets out the applicable restrictions.

You can look up the details under nre.co.uk/XX, where XX is the code. This link is printed on the ticket if you have a traditional paper-based ticket, or shown at the bottom of an eTicket.

For example, I get an off-peak ticket from station A to station B. On the return, I break my journey at station C which is unmanned. Where do I find what trains are barred to me without being excessed?

Asking station staff doesn't guarantee getting an accurate answer, since the concept of restriction codes is alien to an alarming proportion of station staff. You will often just get a guess based on the most common tickets they see - even if the restrictions are different with the ticket you hold.

You can look up the applicable restrictions under the relevant nre.co.uk/XX link. Alternatively, you can search from your ticket's origin to your ticket's destination and find which trains the same fare is offered on. Of course that doesn't help much for break of journey, unless you use a site like TrainSplit that allows you to add in additional changes and interchange time.

 

[themiller]

I note that the following statement is on brfares.com
‘Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and
resuming a journey at an intermediate station.’
Not particularly helpful for my original post! How on earth are non-informed travellers expected to navigate such convoluted conditions? An example would be a trip from Carlisle to Skipton returning with a stop-off at Dent. Having had a short walk, no internet, what train to get on?

 

[studio_two]

Something that’s often come to mind and which I can’t find an answer to is how does a traveller know what trains/stations/whatever constitute peak time?

Without technology at your disposal, I'd say it is almost impossible for infrequent travellers.

Generally speaking, travelling within South Yorkshire (even when the journey requires a change), I find that there are restrictions on "off peak" tickets before 09:30 and also between 16:00 => 18:30.

When I travel across the county border (using Northern), only the morning restrictions seem to apply. This is despite changing to services that would have evening restrictions.

For example, Sheffield to Barnsley has morning and evening restrictions, but Sheffield to Huddersfield (same train) only has the morning restriction.

If in doubt, you probably will either not use the early-evening train (when you could), or end up with a penalty fare for having an invalid ticket.

 

[jon81uk]

I note that the following statement is on brfares.com
‘Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and
resuming a journey at an intermediate station.’
Not particularly helpful for my original post! How on earth are non-informed travellers expected to navigate such convoluted conditions? An example would be a trip from Carlisle to Skipton returning with a stop-off at Dent. Having had a short walk, no internet, what train to get on?

non-informed travellers don't break their journey. They just do what the journey planner tells them to do, getting on a train and getting off at their destination.

Informed travellers (which many on this forum would be) generally know to look at under nre.co.uk/XX, where XX is the code and see what the restrictions are on the ticket they purchased, or read the information presented during the purchase of the ticket.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Something that’s often come to mind and which I can’t find an answer to is how does a traveller know what trains/stations/whatever constitute peak time? For example, I get an off-peak ticket from station A to station B. On the return, I break my journey at station C which is unmanned. Where do I find what trains are barred to me without being excessed?

The only true way is to consult a knowledgeable member of railway staff or perhaps an afficionado on a forum such as this.

Example:

I’m travelling from Milngavie (MLN) to Haymarket (HYM) on the Off Peak Day Return (CDR). This ticket type carries the H1 Restriction Code:

nre.co.uk/h1

“Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:15.

Passengers are not permitted to join the following at Glasgow Queen Street or Central, Edinburgh or Haymarket:

• any service departing after 16:42 and before 18:11, except the 17:59 Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts;
• the 18:15 Edinburgh (18:21 Haymarket) to Glasgow Queen Street service;
• the 18:15 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh service;
• the 18:35 Edinburgh (18:40 Haymarket) to Aberdeen service.”

I’m running late on the return leg of the journey, so I go for the 16:46 MLN. The restriction says I can’t travel on this service. However, if I turn up for it there is a local easement as that service was historically retimed into the more expensive Off Peak (SVR) fare times. The staff will let you through (the GateLine won’t) – there are quite a few such easements.

Of course, to properly manage and charge correctly you need a Restriction Code for each line of route or “market segment” to ensure Passengers are correctly charged. The never bothered to fix the system even now after I advised them many decades ago to do so. So here we are.

This means that people booking online via TPRs, choosing this service for their return journey are overcharged by £8.20 (from £23.80 to £32.00) as they may never realise such an easement exists.

Rail Delivery Group are supposed to police these systems. They don’t.

 

[Watershed]

I note that the following statement is on brfares.com
‘Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and
resuming a journey at an intermediate station.’
Not particularly helpful for my original post!

That applies to the electronic data set out in the bottom section of the page, which is intended only for journey planners.

How on earth are non-informed travellers expected to navigate such convoluted conditions? An example would be a trip from Carlisle to Skipton returning with a stop-off at Dent. Having had a short walk, no internet, what train to get on?

Non-informed travellers don't normally break their journey, but you are correct that it's somewhat limiting that there isn't a simple tool which lets you search for the train you want to take, enter your ticket's restriction code, and see whether it's valid or not.

Generally, longer distance tickets tend only to have morning restrictions. The exception is journeys to/from/via London, where restrictions often also apply in the evening peak when departing London area stations - but of course there is good internet access at most of the relevant stations (not to mention barriers).

 

[redreni]

That applies to the electronic data set out in the bottom section of the page, which is intended only for journey planners.

Quite. In my limited experience, at least, the human-readable restriction will normally (but not always) resolve any uncertainty as to what trains you can use when starting short or resuming after a break of journey.

For example, I always take "not valid on trains timed to depart between [two times]" as referring to the time the train is timed to depart the station where I join it.

But some tickets have wording like "not valid on trains timed to depart the origin on the ticket between [two times]", which is obviously different. Or they may have a list of stations and times.

It's rarely ambiguous in my experience.

Of course, if the human-readable data is unhelpful, you can always try to validate the journey you want to make using the ticket you hold on a journey planner. The forum's site lets you specify a break of journey by saying you want to change at the station concerned and adding extra time there as desired.

 

[Krokodil]

An example would be a trip from Carlisle to Skipton returning with a stop-off at Dent. Having had a short walk, no internet, what train to get on?

Skipton-Carlisle Off Peak Day Return has restriction code B6:

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:15.

If it was after 08:15 when they departed Carlisle then it necessarily follows that it is after 08:15 when they rejoin at Dent so all is good. Not a tricky example really.

Where there may actually be an issue is where afternoon peak restrictions exist. Someone has an Off Peak Day Return ticket back from C to A, they travel from C to B before the peak (which we will say is 16:00-18:59) and go to the pub. Suitably refreshed, they now wish to complete their journey. Trains depart from C at xx:55 and B at xx:05. Had they boarded the 15:55 at C it was definitely fine but is it fine to board the very same train at B at 16:05 with the C-A ticket? Likewise they cannot board the 18:55 at C but can they board the 19:05 at B with the C-A ticket?

Personally I'm inclined to be applying the restrictions as if there wasn't a break of journey. If I come to you after B and see a C-A ticket then I'm going to assume that you were on from C and I would consider the time that the train departed C. Not that I've really got the patience to do much more than an eye roll if I notice a restricted ticket being used during the afternoon peak.

 

[redreni]

Skipton-Carlisle Off Peak Day Return has restriction code B6:

If it was after 08:15 when they departed Carlisle then it necessarily follows that it is after 08:15 when they rejoin at Dent so all is good. Not a tricky example really.

Where there may actually be an issue is where afternoon peak restrictions exist. Someone has an Off Peak Day Return ticket back from C to A, they travel from C to B before the peak (which we will say is 16:00-18:59) and go to the pub. Suitably refreshed, they now wish to complete their journey. Trains depart from C at xx:55 and B at xx:05. Had they boarded the 15:55 at C it was definitely fine but is it fine to board the very same train at B at 16:05 with the C-A ticket? Likewise they cannot board the 18:55 at C but can they board the 19:05 at B with the C-A ticket?

Personally I'm inclined to be applying the restrictions as if there wasn't a break of journey. If I come to you after B and see a C-A ticket then I'm going to assume that you were on from C and I would consider the time that the train departed C. Not that I've really got the patience to do much more than an eye roll if I notice a restricted ticket being used during the afternoon peak.

In that C-A example boarding at B at 16.05, assuming the restriction is worded "not valid on trains timed to depart between 16.00 and 18.59”, I probably wouldn't volunteer to pay an excess fare (especially since the OP is asking about scenarios where the journey is broken at an unstaffed station so any excess would have to be collected onboard or at the destination), but I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if asked to pay one. Conversely I would be most annoyed if asked to pay an excess when boarding at 19.05 just because the train was timed to depart from somewhere else at 18.55 if that wasn't stated explicitly in the wording of the restriction.

Arguably that wording is ambiguous, as it could easily specify that it refers to the origin on the ticket but it doesn't. Or, if it is intended to mean you can't *board* a train between 16.00 and 18.59, it could say that (as some restrictions do).

In addition, assuming the restriction always refers to the origin printed on the ticket might be problematic if not all the trains the passenger could board when resuming at B towards C have called previously at A. You could use any such train without falling foul of the restriction, interpreted that way.

 

[Watershed]

In addition, assuming the restriction always refers to the origin printed on the ticket might be problematic if not all the trains the passenger could board when resuming at B towards C have called previously at A. You could use any such train without falling foul of the restriction, interpreted that way.

Indeed. You also get into disparities between restriction codes where the restrictions apply individually to each train you board (e.g. Northern's ND), and other codes that say the restrictions don't apply if you started your journey before the evening restriction period (e.g. TfW's AW).

Sometimes those two restriction codes co-exist for the same flow!

 

[Haywain]

The restriction says I can’t travel on this service. However, if I turn up for it there is a local easement as that service was historically retimed into the more expensive Off Peak (SVR) fare times. The staff will let you through (the GateLine won’t) – there are quite a few such easements.

Perhaps the solution would be to ask the TOC setting the fare to make the "local easement" official so that it can properly be part of the restriction data, and not rely on being in the know.

This means that people booking online via TPRs, choosing this service for their return journey are overcharged by £8.20 (from £23.80 to £32.00) as they may never realise such an easement exists.

They won't know it exists because the TOC isn't sharing the information through the restriction data.

Rail Delivery Group are supposed to police these systems. They don’t.

RDG can't police the use of data that isn't offered to the relevant industry systems.

 

[TUC]

This is a classic example of where basic expectations and training of customer-facing staff need to be adjusted so that looking up restriction codes in response to a passenger enquiry is a day to day part of the job.

 

[Starmill]

They wan't know it exists because the TOC isn't sharing the information through the restriction data.

Indeed. If someone had asked my advice on that, I would have perhaps consulted the online journey planner as a second check, but ultimately my advice would have been they needed to buy the more expensive ticket, leading to their being well overcharged in the view of a regular user. Anyone who uses the ScotRail app will be massively overcharged according to this view.

 

[Haywain]

Anyone who uses the ScotRail app will be massively overcharged according to this view.

And Scotrail are not regarded as a Third Party Retailer!!

 

[studio_two]

You also get into disparities between restriction codes where the restrictions apply individually to each train you board (e.g. Northern's ND).

It seems crazy that customers travelling between Barnsley & Rotherham would need to wait up to 2 1/2 hours in Meadowhall to change trains.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Indeed. You also get into disparities between restriction codes where the restrictions apply individually to each train you board (e.g. Northern's ND), and other codes that say the restrictions don't apply if you started your journey before the evening restriction period (e.g. TfW's AW).

Sometimes those two restriction codes co-exist for the same flow!

Yes, we have something similar. If you are travelling through Haymarket or Edinburgh from one location to another but need to board a service that is restricted, we allow it as a local easement, that was documented in the Guards Handbook (British Rail era) but is now in this guide for staff that I made to ensure we were all singing the same song:

Staff Guide to Edinburgh & Haymarket​

Off-Peak Boarding Restrictions (Monday-Friday) / Break of Journey Regulations​

You are obligated under the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT Clause, 2.3) to advise customers of any restrictions pertaining to our tickets. Conversely, they are obliged to check our ticket at the time of purchase and ensure it meets their needs (NRCoT Clause 2.4). Passengers are responsible for ensuring they have a valid ticket as outlined on Page 5 of the Passenger Charter. All must hold a valid ticket (or other authority to travel) before passing through a barrier or boarding a service where opportunity to buy exists or permission is given via Authority to Travel / Ticket Endorsement, as you may use your discretion in certain circumstances e.g. someone was delayed on an inbound service and consequently falls foul of the restrictions on the return portion of their journey.

These restrictions are relaxed on certain Bank Holidays – your local Manager / Supervisor will make you aware of these dates via briefings or by notice.

Have in mind that Consumer Protection Regulations now apply and that you must exercise reasonable skill and care in conducting your duties or you may fall foul of the courts in a subsequent damages claim. Request any further training or clarification on anything you are unsure of.

Be prepared or prepare to fail.

When retailing ask the Passenger to state the intended time of both legs of their journey. If unsure, issue the cheaper fare and advise them to pay the difference (excess (X-S) – it is not an “upgrade” – for that see Seatfrog (educate Passengers to use the correct terminology e.g. Delay Repay differs from Refund to avoid confusion in entitlement and where to apply for it)), where possible, before commencing their return journey at peak times. Through tickets from other stations that involve boarding at Edinburgh or Haymarket are exempt from these boarding restrictions, for example, Newcraighall to Motherwell (local easement).

The restriction code determines the validity of a ticket, along with Break of Journey permissions. So, as an example, a ticket for the 09:15 from Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street is valid for CDR (Off-Peak Day Return) as it carries the H1 Restriction Code (H1 Link), whereas the SVR (Off-Peak Return) is not as it carries the 8F Restriction Code (8F Link). You can quickly access the required information by typing nre.co.uk/XX (XX is replaced by the Restriction Code) on a browser to get the associated wording. It is desirable to show Passengers how to do this, if you have the time as it is not commonly known. Some Retail Channels can show differing information – default to the publicly accessible information in this case, reporting the discrepancy so that correction can be made.

Most ticket types allow Break of Journey on both the outward and return portions of the ticket, but certain products may have Break of Journey restrictions as shown in a Retail Brief but then countermanded by the code on the ticket. Where a Retail Brief is countermanded by a Restriction Code on the ticket then the Restriction Code takes precedence as we must err on the side of the Passenger when we have conflicting instruction due to Consumer Protection Regulations. Kids for a Quid is now valid all day and if you look in the latest Retail Brief that we received on Friday,27th September 2024 @16:23 in the Refunds and Changes section you’ll see that “Journeys cannot be broken, other than for connectional purpose.” This means there is no Break of Journey, that should really be in a section titled Restrictions, but you were all paying attention, weren’t you?

When permitted, you may break your journey as often as you wish within the validity of a ticket. Break of Journey means leaving the premises. You can use any Station Services e.g. make a reservation, take a shower and even fulfil a desire for a Marathon (yes, it is back[1]) and this is not classed as a Break of Journey; so, someone with an Advance ticket from Penzance to Thurso can go and book their return journey at Haymarket Travel Shop, as they may have time between trains.

Additionally, Break of Journey precludes joining at an intermediate point – I would not enforce this unless it is being utilised to avoid a higher fare.

There are further easements to Restriction Codes that have been implemented to deal with timetable changes over the decades e.g. a timetable change moves a service into the Peak; a service is Off-Peak at EDB (Railway Codes) but Peak at HYM or vice versa:

16:43 HYM to DBL (local easement from HYM, as Off-Peak at EDB); 16:46 MLN (local easement from HYM, as Off-Peak at EDB);

17:58 HYM to EDB for a connection to the 18:13 NBW (local easement);

We are awaiting authority for other services that have issues.

There are a few things that people seem to be confused about, generally due to not understanding the full wording of a Restriction Code; take the time to read them periodically as they can change without warning, and it serves to keep your knowledge up to date, reporting any anomaly between Retail Briefs and Restriction Codes on the various Retail Systems:

CDR tickets issued for Gleneagles and stations North which is not valid before 08:00. CDR tickets issued from Gleneagles or stations North are problematic due to the differing Restriction Codes – they typically catch staff out as tickets carry a B7 restriction from Edinburgh areas and an H1 from the North. This is designed to promote leisure travel to the North due to spare capacity, hence the difference. There exists an SVR from Edinburgh to Gleneagles but not from Haymarket so an Over Distance Excess to Edinburgh, choosing SVR, is cheaper than a Ticket Type excess from CDR to SDR at Haymarket. There are quite a few of these workarounds e.g. Hyndland to Eskbank that will save the Passenger money. We regularly sell from Shawfair to Stirling as SVR rather than sell two SDS if the intended journey times of the Passenger permit. Test the system by opening the distance from commuter to leisure fares to other locations such as Stow or Tweedbank as there are savings to be made. Our favourite X-S is an Over Distance from Falkirk Stations to Shawfair instead of X-S from CDR to SDR for HYM or EDB as the SVR for that journey is the same price, although we do hate the associated paperwork, hence the reason why you need to price by the mile or part thereof when creating a fair fares system. I suppose it does make it interesting, though.

Dunbar has become a little complex with the C6 (valid all day) Restriction Code on flows from Haymarket routed Any Permitted with C2 (not valid before 07:00) Restriction Code routed Not Newcastle on flows from Edinburgh (I’m assuming this is to split revenue sharing in some fashion) and is now subject to Single Leg Pricing (SLP) with LNER but to make life interesting we have a TPE Only CDR with an I6 Restriction Code, which due to a current lack of services does not concern us, for the moment – keep an eye on it though – pesky timetable changes. Due to Split Ticketing / TOC Specific Tickets you may be unable to excess thus needing to issue a new ticket as Passengers may fall foul of NRCoT14 when going to East Linton, as an example:

A lady had bought Dunbar to East Linton (CDR Any Permitted) & East Linton to Edinburgh (CDR Any Permitted).

The lady turned up at Haymarket to go on the LNER 17:21 Kings Cross back to Dunbar.

Because of SLP and NRCoT 14.2 her tickets were basically invalid as there is no CDR from Haymarket to Dunbar Any Permitted or I could have done an Over Distance X-S to ease the pain a little.

The lady was forced to buy a new ticket as she had to get that train; now you know why we want fares simplification.

Note that East Linton does not have a Restriction Code for CDR with TPE Only but carries the H1 for Any Permitted.

Note that the 17:59 from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central is valid for the H1 Restriction Code, but not for others such as the Restriction Code TI, but is a slow train taking 89 minutes, arriving 19:28. The 18:30 express from Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street will arrive at 19:18.

The West Coast Main Line carries the 8A (Avanti Only) Restriction which has no time but a Break of Journey Restriction however, as mentioned above allow a ticket from EDB to join at HYM as there is no difference in fare. The West Coast Mail Line and adjacent stations 2U Restriction Code is barred for Break of Journey on the Outward portion and also has Seasonal Variations – this means Peak Restrictions are generally lifted around Christmas (some Restriction Codes have additional periods too) as you’ll see when you look it up. Lockerbie now has an I1 Restriction Code which is not valid before 09:30 and is subject to Seasonal Variations.

Remember that the 18:35, which is a little outside our usual restricted period, from Edinburgh to Aberdeen is restricted due to the H1 Restriction Code specifying this service for some tickets. The LNER ONLY M6 Restriction Code is not valid before 09:15 and has multiple Seasonal Variations. Although the aforementioned train is not ours, remember the ethos of impartial retailing and Nationalisation – be wise and advise.

Restrictions apply to individual tickets based on their coding e.g. 2U, 3V, 8A, 8F, B7, C2, C6, H1, H2, H4, H7, I1, I6, M6, TI and TP. Note that Retail Systems currently show the H2 restriction on some flows as “Not valid on 'The Jacobite', steam service operated by West Coast Railways.” – regard this as meaning valid all day.

• Certain products / promotions cause confusion to both staff and public alike as the Terms and Conditions can be complex or quite different from what is commonly experienced e.g. Club 50 £17 Flat Fare Offer / Super Off-Peak Day Return. Tickets may offer an expiry date later than the end of the promotional period. Angus Tough, Head of Stations has ruled that we must honour anything we advertise and remember those Consumer Protection Regulations too when you come across this kind of anomaly.
  
  
• Keep a paper copy of all current Retail Briefs in a folder that is easily accessible to consult and periodically read to refresh your memory, archiving out of date information for reference in another section of the same folder – mark the date of any new instruction for reference and include an index at the front with the relevant page number – your Supervisor / Manager will do this for you or designate someone for this purpose. This is also handy to show to Passengers who may have out of date information or have been given incorrect advice.
  
  
• As your knowledge increases you will find that there are errors and ambiguities in many instructions. What is advertised online and what is shown in Retail Briefs can also be different due to the fragmentation of responsibility; keep reporting and effect change for the better.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Perhaps the solution would be to ask the TOC setting the fare to make the "local easement" official so that it can properly be part of the restriction data, and not rely on being in the know.

They won't know it exists because the TOC isn't sharing the information through the restriction data.

RDG can't police the use of data that isn't offered to the relevant industry systems.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us.html - RDG

We moan regularly to various responsible parties to fix the fares system. At the moment we are trying to get all time restrictions removed for all Products (e.g. Travel Tickets, Rovers etc) and RailCards (needs a change in the law if RDG don’t agree) in Scotland. We are in a good position to do so as the loadings don’t need to be controlled, except during events, due to the change in working practices after Covid. Note that “Customer” now means “Passenger” we weren’t nationalised for that bit.

I informed RDG of the various issues. I'm awaiting a meeting with them to action issues we've raised, along with Ross Currie our current "Fares Manager".

Here is a copy of a letter I sent back in 2009, as an example:

J. Davis,

Barrier Manager,

Edinburgh.



CC.



Corrina Wenzel,

Fraud & Security Team Manager,

Glasgow.



J. McBrinn,

Head of Stations,

Edinburgh.



Thursday, 17th June 2009.

Hi John,

Sometime ago Corrina asked for a list of issues relating to the gateline. Apologies for the delay in getting this to her, I was busy studying Law!

It can be useful for John too as this is now really his remit (life is good, eh John?)

As per the chain of communication I have given you three copies, one for yourself and the others to pass on at your leisure.

I hope you enjoy the short read, it would have been much longer if I had went into greater detail about our performance during disruptions (this seriously affects the gateline and barrier staff as three hundred people running at you to get a train that is just about to leave is interesting to say the least) but I have dealt with this before in earlier communications and it is something that will need real money thrown at it, if change is to occur, and that is just not going to happen in today’s financial climate... Besides there will always be sudden platform alterations. It‘s a fact of operational life.

First ScotRail – Edinburgh Waverley and Haymarket Gateline, CIS and Platform Operations – An insight into how we could do much better​

Gateline and the Validity Codes​

The current system at the above locations and the information posters that prevail are not sufficient to meet the needs of the franchise agreements and the requirements of the evermore demanding customer. Basically, we have inherited a poorly planned and badly implemented gateline system.

Are we in breach of SQUIRE and the franchise agreements? In a word, yes.

Currently First ScotRail has an inadequate number of codes dealing with OFF PEAK DAY; some of which cover more than one route. In an effort to minimise the danger of failing SQUIRE we have unrealistic cut-off points for OFF-PEAK DAY at 16:32 when we still have the 16:37 Dunblane and the 16:39 Fife Circle (Glenrothes) departure. This does cause customers to miss their chosen train as gateline staff can be occupied elsewhere with enquiries, complaints , TVM’s, assists, jammed customers and the manual gates. At the other end of the spectrum we have an 18:20 enabling of the OFF-PEAK DAY when the 18:00 Dundee is valid for Markinch and stations North (local easement), the 18:08 Fife Circle (Glenrothes) and the 18:18 Bathgate are also valid. This is a nightmare during busy times due to gateline staff dealing with the Manchester Airport arrival (1735) / departure (18:12) where the majority of tickets are OFF-PEAK DAY, Advance / Airport Getaways and do not operate the gateline. Many queue at the manual gate causing problems to customers utilising this entry point; generally those with book type FlexiPasses, tribute tickets and faulty seasons.

At this point we must note that many North – South and vice versa ANYTIME and OFF-PEAK (S) & (R) tickets do not work – 126 code (the ticket origin is not listed as valid for entry here); even within Scotland we get 112 (not valid till date shown) or 113 (ceased to be valid after the date shown) errors on ANYTIME when the gateline should recognise them as being valid. Advance has a 105 (always to be rejected) error code. The regular users of these products also make straight for the manual gate. The rest clog up the automatic gates as they try a few times to get them to work and invariably delay other customers in a rush for connections – some get through who should not, more later... This generates customer anger, especially when they miss a connection, which is usually taken out on staff. We also get a lot of catty comments, “These never work” and the humorous “Couldn’t organise a p.... “ Etc. Sometimes you’ve just got to agree with the customer...

Another deficiency of the gateline equipment is a ticket such as Burntisland to Glasgow Cen/Qst. As the ticket passes through the gateline it is recorded and will give a used code of 133, for passback purposes, if it passes through the barrier again within thirty minutes. Customers invariably break their journey at Edinburgh (sometimes just to get a coffee or more often than not they go out onto the concourse just to see the departure board and then try to come back in again) and this type of ticket should be recognised by the system and permitted once more when it (if it does) passes through the gateline on the inward movement. There are a fairly high proportion of these types of tickets having to be dealt with manually.

All this makes the peak time real fun for the hard pressed gateline staff. The only good point in the gateline deficiencies is that the West Lothian Concessions are allowed through when they should not[1]; we only have arguments with customers when they get a 09 (the ticket cannot be read accurately) / 07 (the ticket cannot be read at all) and we are forced to tell them the bad news. It is particularly annoying when they point to their partners or friends saying they got through and we have to invite them all to come back and buy new tickets or wait an hour or so.

Let us examine in detail the lines of route, the current coding and the new coding, that is needed to give us more control at the gateline. Clearly such a system will have to be monitored for timetable changes and tweaked when necessary. It makes sense that gateline staff have the ability to do this as we have continuous problems during bank holidays when we seem to get an English data set that allows OFF-PEAK DAY through when it should not as the holidays differ in Scotland. This creates hassle for the Conductors when they attempt to excess or insist on the purchase of a new ticket. Even more interesting is the fact that customers boarding at Waverley on the outlying platforms are processed manually and are excessed or diverted to later services. Customers utilising the barriers at Haymarket get through and are sitting next to someone who four minutes ago paid an extra £8.40 for their journey. Makes an interesting talking point. When the Conductor comes through try getting the cash for two adults and three kids who are holding Kids Go Free tickets – not now they don’t!

Edinburgh to Glasgow lines (H1)​

We have three lines of route here:

• ScotRail E&G valid via Falkirk High & Grahamston as per the local routing guide.
  
  
• The Shotts line.
  
  
• Via Carstairs which includes EAST COAST and the odd CrossCountry (Arriva) service. The only thing that concerns us here is the fact that EAST COAST only routed tickets should be rejected by the barrier. The facility to lift this restriction to deal with engineering works and disruptions should rest with the gateline staff.

The Current edition of the fares manual that we have access to, which is more than a year out of date (restriction codes that are being utilised are not there and timings are wrong)[2], states the following:

Validity Code H1​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays – Fridays before 09:15. Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Glasgow Queen St or Central, Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays – Fridays any service departing between 16:42 and 18:09 nor the 18:15 Edinburgh – Glasgow Queen St – Edinburgh services (except: Passengers may join the 1756 to Glasgow via Shotts).

We shall call our new validity codes S1 – S9 for the sake of convenience, this may need to be altered depending on current usage and an additional code may be needed when the Borders line reopens.

Validity Code S1​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays – Fridays before 09:05. Except the 1752 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Shotts passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Glasgow Queen St, Central, Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays – Fridays any other service departing between 16:32 and 18:19.

This validity code allows a little more time for people to get to their trains and is perfect for barrier timings. There will always be people who will miss their trains, tail through the barrier, get through the wide automatic gates, be let through with a valid ticket by the person behind them who does not wait for them to clear the barrier (basically the invalid ticket causes an error 107 but whilst they wonder what has happened the person in a hurry behind them opens that gate with their ticket and the invalid one gets through and the valid one now gets a 133 – passback)and get on a service with invalid tickets. This happens regularly. The current weird system does nothing but hinder staff and customers alike. I cannot stress this enough.

Edinburgh to Fife Circle (H7)​

This code was designed for a timetable that no longer exists. The further difficulty with this code is that it also deals with Markinch, Ladybank, Springfield (even though a service does not exist for OFF-PEAK DAY), Cupar and Leuchars (with St. Andrews).

Validity Code H7​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 09:15. Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays to Fridays any service departing between 16:45 and 18:09 nor the 18:10 (First ScotRail) or the 18:34 East Coast) services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

This code should be replaced by two separate codes; one for the Fife Circle per se; that is Edinburgh to Glenrothes and all stations on the Inner and Outer Circle and another for Markinch and stations North. This code is also a little more involved as we have the 18:16 CrossCountry (Arriva) departure which OFF-PEAK DAY for all points is valid. However, the 18:30 Aberdeen is restricted for Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy! This anomaly confuses staff and customers alike[3].

Validity Code S2​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 09:10. Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays to Fridays any service departing between 16:42 and 18:07. In addition, the EAST COAST 18:30 to Aberdeen is restricted for Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy.

The barrier timings here have to be tweaked so that we allow people through from 18:01 (giving the 18:00 Dundee a little time to get moving) at Edinburgh Waverley and at 18:05 at Haymarket to let the same train get out of the way. Anyone needing a little extra time due to luggage, buggies or infirmity can be dealt with in a customer service friendly way via assistance by staff as the 18:08 Fife Circle (Glenrothes) is invariably from Platform 18.

If trains are delayed then it is unavoidable that we will get invalid tickets on trains. Staff should be briefed on the barrier timings and announcements should be made by both station staff and on-train staff, giving people time to alight, should they choose not to travel on the more expensive service. This is especially true for the EAST COAST 18:30 to Aberdeen. Customer service needs improving on this aspect.

This code can also be utilised for Newcraighall & Brunstane, the timings are just nice.

Now for Markinch and stations North:

Validity Code S3​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 09:10. Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays to Fridays any service departing between 16:42 and 17:50.

This allows the 17:41 Inverness plenty of clearance and gives a good ten minutes of boarding time at Edinburgh Waverley on the 18:00 Dundee, so is good for barrier timings too.

Edinburgh to Bathgate (H1)​

Currently covered by H1 restriction mentioned earlier. We need to differentiate this line of route because of the barrier enabling at 18:20 which means these customers with OFF-PEAK DAY are processed manually. We can also utilise this code for West Lothian Concessions.

Validity Code S4​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 09:15. Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays to Fridays any service departing between 16:20 and 17:50.

This gives us a couple of minutes each way for the 16:18 and 17:48 Bathgate to get out of the way and is perfect for the barrier timings. Morning timings for the barrier can be from 09:00, giving plenty of time.

Edinburgh to North Berwick (H1)​

Currently covered by H1 restriction mentioned earlier. We need to differentiate this line of route because of the barrier easement at Haymarket allowing customers on the 18:05 departure

Validity Code S4​

Outward & Return Travel

By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 09:15. Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays to Fridays any service departing between 16:20 and 17:50.

Fine for entering as barrier timings[4].

The current H7 restriction is fine for Dunblane, Alloa, Perth and stations North. This is true as long as our 16:37 Dunblane stays as it currently is on platform 10 per the last docker change but it will not so we need an additional code similar to S2 that will be differentiated as S5 with appropriate barrier timings. This can be safely ignored for the present but will need dealt with. Additionally, we have during certain docker or platform changes TransPennine or Virgin services within the barrier. We also have EAST COAST customers for Dunbar and Berwick-Upon-Tweed. We must not forget our B5 valid form 08:30 in the morning for Perth and stations North. These all will have to be catered for per the enclosed simplifier, utilising the remaining codes (or utilising their coding properly) and keeping one for the Shotts line calling points, except Glasgow (S8) permitting entry after the 17:21 Motherwell. Customers going to Glasgow on this service will have to be processed manually.

One other easement that must be borne in mind is that which allows customers from outlying stations permission to board as they “have already started their journey”. So anyone from Newcraighall to Glasgow can travel on the 17:30 Glasgow Queen Street with this easement. We will need a code(S9) for this type of journey, valid from 09:15 onwards, Monday to Friday. Creates a bit of a headache, doesn’t it? Revenue protection has to be an issue here...

Recently we have had problems with Central Scotland Rovers being swallowed by the barriers (they end up in the bin) when they are perfectly valid. This clearly needs fixed urgently before the summer gets fully underway. Can we allow all Rover tickets through as long as they are in date or is it policy they are manually checked?

The 50 Journey FlexiPass also seems to time out after three months when they are valid up to a year – I believe these are issued by Travel Agents? At the moment we cannot tell when a FlexiPass has been used due to a change in the software within the gateline, although I do hear it is being changed back. Seemingly one tested as being unused when the barrier rejected it as being used?

There are additionally a number of issues with the relationship between CIS, Platform Staff and the need for real-time information. CIS do not always show the correct information e.g. Front 5 Coaches; Please wait on main concourse until train ready for boarding (which should be shown when trains are required to be prepared for another journey, rather than just hiding the platform). Surely they should have this information in the system as it is in the docker or is normal daily practice? Platform staff do have the duty to inform CIS but it really should be on the system as default and altered when necessary. CrossCountry, East Coast and TransPennine affect the Gateline so they must conform to good practice in this respect. Also, CIS show a service as cancelled when it starts from Haymarket – best to just show it as starting from Haymarket, not cancelled. This is a defect in the design of the information display. The best structure would be Front 3 Coaches for [TRAIN]. Or Travel to Haymarket Platform 1 for [TRAIN]. The editable information should be at the start as people see cancelled and either go away or queue up to find out what is happening. They do not read on, as they should to get the information they really need. We need to give them that first.

I have been invited by Network Rail in the past to see how CIS operates and I would like it if everyone could do this and visit the Signalling Centre and various others e.g. TCS and the Regulator. To better understand why things are as they are. A tour of the area for new entrants would be advisable so they know where TVM’s and access, egress and facilities at stations are.

During disruptions information does not get where it should (T.E.s are always in this boat – they find out about problems from the customers most of the time – Barrier Managers sometimes get told third party with this communication system!) and we think more about trains than customers, hence people are regularly left on the wrong platform when there is a sudden change. Although, this only really happens when there is confusion or operational necessity means we are instructed to despatch the service as quickly as possible. It is rare, but it happens. Perhaps we need an operational guideline that everyone follows during disruptions? Perhaps it would be wise to change the modus operandi during disruptions, asking people to wait on the main concourse until trains are ready. When all the boxes are ticked (we have a train that works, traincrew and it should get the road) we can show it. This will minimise platform changes and keep the customers a little happier.

It must be pointed out that in general the relationship is good, even when tempers get a little raw, and we pull together pretty well. However, I feel that if we all had time to understand each others roles and responsibilities as well as having a tried and tested system we could work together better.

Train Plan​

There are a few problems with train plan. The classic train plan problem is the 18:15 Glasgow Queen Street & 18:18 Bathgate split on platform 13. We have to hide this until it is locked up then show them one after the other to minimise the rush at the gateline and specifically to allow the platform staff to split the train. This can be quite tight timewise, but would be eased if the coding changes were implemented.

Departure Boards and Station Signage​

The departure board would be best sited away from the gateline at the other end of the station – perhaps next time the station is refurbished or when the roof is replaced? Many people go through the gateline as they are directly in front of it and assume their platform is in this part of the station. Better signage at the departure board would be beneficial. Admittedly, I don’t know if this will make a great difference but it might help and clearly could only be done when a major refurbishment is due – but I feel it is something to consider. Another would be to have a red zone (no standing in this area) near the gateline (both sides) in order that people do not block the gates. We could have a one way system showing people lanes on the floor that point to the platforms. During busy times and disruptions this would greatly aid the flow of people. A one way system round North Block would be a wise move... The retailers would be happy too with more business passing Marks and Sparks!

In conclusion, we have inherited a system that was always inadequate for the purpose and needs reviewed and changed for the better.

They way we interact, communication and understanding have issues that when resolved, in my opinion, could improve the way we work and lead to a happier experience for the customer. Perhaps more of them would come back and use us again rather than promise, “That’s the last time I use the trains!”.

Regards,



Gary Stewart.

PT TE, Edinburgh.

Encl. Simplifier.

The current simplifier is this:

Staff Guide to Edinburgh & Haymarket

Off-Peak Boarding Restrictions (Monday-Friday) / Break of Journey Regulations



You are obligated under the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT Clause, 2.3) to advise customers of any restrictions pertaining to our tickets. Conversely, they are obliged to check our ticket at the time of purchase and ensure it meets their needs (NRCoT Clause 2.4). Passengers are responsible for ensuring they have a valid ticket as outlined on Page 5 of the Passenger Charter. All must hold a valid ticket (or other authority to travel) before passing through a barrier or boarding a service where opportunity to buy exists or permission is given via Authority to Travel / Ticket Endorsement, as you may use your discretion in certain circumstances e.g. someone was delayed on an inbound service and consequently falls foul of the restrictions on the return portion of their journey.

These restrictions are relaxed on certain Bank Holidays – your local Manager / Supervisor will make you aware of these dates via briefings or by notice.

Have in mind that Consumer Protection Regulations now apply and that you must exercise reasonable skill and care in conducting your duties or you may fall foul of the courts in a subsequent damages claim. Request any further training or clarification on anything you are unsure of.

Be prepared or prepare to fail.

When retailing ask the Passenger to state the intended time of both legs of their journey. If unsure, issue the cheaper fare and advise them to pay the difference (excess (X-S) – it is not an “upgrade” – for that see Seatfrog (educate Passengers to use the correct terminology e.g. Delay Repay differs from Refund to avoid confusion in entitlement and where to apply for it)), where possible, before commencing their return journey at peak times. Through tickets from other stations that involve boarding at Edinburgh or Haymarket are exempt from these boarding restrictions, for example, Newcraighall to Motherwell (local easement).

The restriction code determines the validity of a ticket, along with Break of Journey permissions. So, as an example, a ticket for the 09:15 from Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street is valid for CDR (Off-Peak Day Return) as it carries the H1 Restriction Code (H1 Link), whereas the SVR (Off-Peak Return) is not as it carries the 8F Restriction Code (8F Link). You can quickly access the required information by typing nre.co.uk/XX (XX is replaced by the Restriction Code) on a browser to get the associated wording. It is desirable to show Passengers how to do this, if you have the time as it is not commonly known. Some Retail Channels can show differing information – default to the publicly accessible information in this case, reporting the discrepancy so that correction can be made.

Most ticket types allow Break of Journey on both the outward and return portions of the ticket, but certain products may have Break of Journey restrictions as shown in a Retail Brief but then countermanded by the code on the ticket. Where a Retail Brief is countermanded by a Restriction Code on the ticket then the Restriction Code takes precedence as we must err on the side of the Passenger when we have conflicting instruction due to Consumer Protection Regulations. Kids for a Quid is now valid all day and if you look in the latest Retail Brief that we received on Friday,27th September 2024 @16:23 in the Refunds and Changes section you’ll see that “Journeys cannot be broken, other than for connectional purpose.” This means there is no Break of Journey, that should really be in a section titled Restrictions, but you were all paying attention, weren’t you?

When permitted, you may break your journey as often as you wish within the validity of a ticket. Break of Journey means leaving the premises. You can use any Station Services e.g. make a reservation, take a shower and even fulfil a desire for a Marathon (yes, it is back[1]) and this is not classed as a Break of Journey; so, someone with an Advance ticket from Penzance to Thurso can go and book their return journey at Haymarket Travel Shop, as they may have time between trains.

Additionally, Break of Journey precludes joining at an intermediate point – I would not enforce this unless it is being utilised to avoid a higher fare.

There are further easements to Restriction Codes that have been implemented to deal with timetable changes over the decades e.g. a timetable change moves a service into the Peak; a service is Off-Peak at EDB (Railway Codes) but Peak at HYM or vice versa:

16:43 HYM to DBL (local easement from HYM, as Off-Peak at EDB); 16:46 MLN (local easement from HYM, as Off-Peak at EDB);

17:58 HYM to EDB for a connection to the 18:13 NBW (local easement);

We are awaiting authority for other services that have issues.

There are a few things that people seem to be confused about, generally due to not understanding the full wording of a Restriction Code; take the time to read them periodically as they can change without warning, and it serves to keep your knowledge up to date, reporting any anomaly between Retail Briefs and Restriction Codes on the various Retail Systems:

CDR tickets issued for Gleneagles and stations North which is not valid before 08:00. CDR tickets issued from Gleneagles or stations North are problematic due to the differing Restriction Codes – they typically catch staff out as tickets carry a B7 restriction from Edinburgh areas and an H1 from the North. This is designed to promote leisure travel to the North due to spare capacity, hence the difference. There exists an SVR from Edinburgh to Gleneagles but not from Haymarket so an Over Distance Excess to Edinburgh, choosing SVR, is cheaper than a Ticket Type excess from CDR to SDR at Haymarket. There are quite a few of these workarounds e.g. Hyndland to Eskbank that will save the Passenger money. We regularly sell from Shawfair to Stirling as SVR rather than sell two SDS if the intended journey times of the Passenger permit. Test the system by opening the distance from commuter to leisure fares to other locations such as Stow or Tweedbank as there are savings to be made. Our favourite X-S is an Over Distance from Falkirk Stations to Shawfair instead of X-S from CDR to SDR for HYM or EDB as the SVR for that journey is the same price, although we do hate the associated paperwork, hence the reason why you need to price by the mile or part thereof when creating a fair fares system. I suppose it does make it interesting, though.

Dunbar has become a little complex with the C6 (valid all day) Restriction Code on flows from Haymarket routed Any Permitted with C2 (not valid before 07:00) Restriction Code routed Not Newcastle on flows from Edinburgh (I’m assuming this is to split revenue sharing in some fashion) and is now subject to Single Leg Pricing (SLP) with LNER but to make life interesting we have a TPE Only CDR with an I6 Restriction Code, which due to a current lack of services does not concern us, for the moment – keep an eye on it though – pesky timetable changes. Due to Split Ticketing / TOC Specific Tickets you may be unable to excess thus needing to issue a new ticket as Passengers may fall foul of NRCoT14 when going to East Linton, as an example:

A lady had bought Dunbar to East Linton (CDR Any Permitted) & East Linton to Edinburgh (CDR Any Permitted).

The lady turned up at Haymarket to go on the LNER 17:21 Kings Cross back to Dunbar.

Because of SLP and NRCoT 14.2 her tickets were basically invalid as there is no CDR from Haymarket to Dunbar Any Permitted or I could have done an Over Distance X-S to ease the pain a little.

The lady was forced to buy a new ticket as she had to get that train; now you know why we want fares simplification.

Note that East Linton does not have a Restriction Code for CDR with TPE Only but carries the H1 for Any Permitted.

Note that the 17:59 from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central is valid for the H1 Restriction Code, but not for others such as the Restriction Code TI, but is a slow train taking 89 minutes, arriving 19:28. The 18:30 express from Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street will arrive at 19:18.

The West Coast Main Line carries the 8A (Avanti Only) Restriction which has no time but a Break of Journey Restriction however, as mentioned above allow a ticket from EDB to join at HYM as there is no difference in fare. The West Coast Mail Line and adjacent stations 2U Restriction Code is barred for Break of Journey on the Outward portion and also has Seasonal Variations – this means Peak Restrictions are generally lifted around Christmas (some Restriction Codes have additional periods too) as you’ll see when you look it up. Lockerbie now has an I1 Restriction Code which is not valid before 09:30 and is subject to Seasonal Variations.

Remember that the 18:35, which is a little outside our usual restricted period, from Edinburgh to Aberdeen is restricted due to the H1 Restriction Code specifying this service for some tickets. The LNER ONLY M6 Restriction Code is not valid before 09:15 and has multiple Seasonal Variations. Although the aforementioned train is not ours, remember the ethos of impartial retailing and Nationalisation – be wise and advise.

Restrictions apply to individual tickets based on their coding e.g. 2U, 3V, 8A, 8F, B7, C2, C6, H1, H2, H4, H7, I1, I6, M6, TI and TP. Note that Retail Systems currently show the H2 restriction on some flows as “Not valid on 'The Jacobite', steam service operated by West Coast Railways.” – regard this as meaning valid all day.

• Certain products / promotions cause confusion to both staff and public alike as the Terms and Conditions can be complex or quite different from what is commonly experienced e.g. Club 50 £17 Flat Fare Offer / Super Off-Peak Day Return. Tickets may offer an expiry date later than the end of the promotional period. Angus Tough, Head of Stations has ruled that we must honour anything we advertise and remember those Consumer Protection Regulations too when you come across this kind of anomaly.
  
  
• Keep a paper copy of all current Retail Briefs in a folder that is easily accessible to consult and periodically read to refresh your memory, archiving out of date information for reference in another section of the same folder – mark the date of any new instruction for reference and include an index at the front with the relevant page number – your Supervisor / Manager will do this for you or designate someone for this purpose. This is also handy to show to Passengers who may have out of date information or have been given incorrect advice.
  
  
• As your knowledge increases you will find that there are errors and ambiguities in many instructions. What is advertised online and what is shown in Retail Briefs can also be different due to the fragmentation of responsibility; keep reporting and effect change for the better.

​

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[1] Mars brings Marathon name back in UK as nostalgia rises for retro sweets | Food & drink industry | The Guardian

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[1] SQUIRE failure and a breach of the franchise agreement as we are effectively telling customers they can travel when they cannot.
[2]Is this not a breach of the franchise agreement? At the least it leads to confusion and misinterpretation. One interesting restriction, H2 – Not valid on Jacobite Steam Train, was related to CDR’s on the West Coast according to RJIS? Dunbar’s code C6 – does not exist. Q. How do I know what I’m typing here is correct? A. I don’t!
[3] Not nearly as sneaky as the Kids Go Free Edinburgh – Dundee from 16:00 restriction on EAST COAST on Sundays. Mind you’re ok for Montrose and the North though. Someone pays far too much attention to loadings.
[4] I think we get the general idea, so I’ll summarise the rest.

 

[Krokodil]

Arguably that wording is ambiguous, as it could easily specify that it refers to the origin on the ticket but it doesn't.

If "timed to depart" is the wording and there's no station specified in the restriction (as per nre.co.uk/lc ) then I struggle to see any argument that it doesn't apply to the origin on the ticket.

and other codes that say the restrictions don't apply if you started your journey before the evening restriction period (e.g. TfW's AW).

Connections to journeys that started before 16.00 are unaffected by this restriction.

That does beg the question of what is a "connection"? Are you obliged to board the next available service or if you arrive at an interchange at 1400 can you legitimately wait until 1700 to board your onward train, ignoring any that run before? Not a situation I'm likely to encounter though as ATW long-since removed most Off Peak Day fares from North Wales & borders as a stealth price hike and those that remain are unlikely to involve any changing of trains.

 

[johntea]

On paper you should just be able to excess your Off Peak ticket to Anytime

In reality good luck, take the gamble in Northern land of either the guard carrying out the excess, the guard just not really caring you're on a peak train with an off peak ticket (perhaps with a gentle 'reminder' to ensure you are aware of the restrictions for next time) or revenue inspection 'nope Penalty Fare mate!'

I'm surprised with eTicket now primarily being the ticket mode of choice there isn't a simple self service 'excess ticket' button you can press or something should you find yourself in the situation where you've bought an Off Peak ticket but plans mean you now wish to travel on a Peak service (the most common scenario of course being Northern and their annoying evening Peak)

 

[studio_two]

That does beg the question of what is a "connection"? Are you obliged to board the next available service or if you arrive at an interchange at 1400 can you legitimately wait until 1700 to board your onward train, ignoring any that run before?

In the case of Northern: The restriction after 16:00 and before 18:30 includes any connecting train departing during this period (or re-commencing your journey following a break of journey).

 

[4COR]

If in doubt, you probably will either not use the early-evening train (when you could), or end up with a penalty fare for having an invalid ticket.

In reality good luck, take the gamble in Northern land of either the guard carrying out the excess, the guard just not really caring you're on a peak train with an off peak ticket (perhaps with a gentle 'reminder' to ensure you are aware of the restrictions for next time) or revenue inspection 'nope Penalty Fare mate!'

I am under the presumption that, in the case of time restricted tickets being used at the wrong time on the correct date (as opposed to an advance ticket on a specified train), any penalty fare issued instead of an excess to the cheapest valid ticket, has been wrongly issued? (NRCoT 9.5)

 

[infobleep]

There are super off-peak peak tickets priced by South Western Railway where their is an evening restriction from certain stations like London Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

But if you take other routes that avoid the three named stations, you are OK.

For example, BD

Applicable Days
Monday to Saturday & Public Holidays

Outward Travel
Not valid on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01.

Not valid to depart London Terminals after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:01. Additionally, not valid to depart if boarding at the following stations:

Clapham Junction: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:10

Vauxhall: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:05

Not valid on CrossCountry services timed to depart after 04:29 and before 13:00

Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01.

Not valid to depart London Terminals after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:01. Additionally, not valid to depart if boarding at the following stations:

Clapham Junction: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:10

Vauxhall: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:05

Not valid on CrossCountry services timed to depart after 04:29 and before 13:00

Seasonal Variations
23 - 31 December 2024 and 2 - 3 January 2025:

Valid for travel on 12:15 Portsmouth Harbour - London Waterloo (arr 13:52)

Ticket Restriction BD | National Rail

Ticket restriction details BD. Each train ticket restriction code states when and/or on what train(s) the ticket is not valid and the days and/or dates that these restrictions apply.

www.nre.co.uk

So the start time when evening restrictions for 3 stations is 15:59 but the evening peak end times are staggered.

As the restrictions into London before 14:01 are about arrival times, you get some times where a ticket is valid but a slightly later train isn't, even if you reach your eventually destination station later, because the second train arrives into London Waterloo first.

This is probably more noticeable on evening out tickets. For example, Guildford to Surbtion.

The 13:04 direct service is valid but getting the 13:19 and changing at Woking wouldn't be, as rhe 13:19 arrives into London Waterloo prior to 14:00. You wouldn't get into Surbiton earlier than rhe 13:04 though.

 

[Krokodil]

In the case of Northern: The restriction after 16:00 and before 18:30 includes any connecting train departing during this period (or re-commencing your journey following a break of journey).

Yes, but my query was in relation to code AW

 

[yorkie]

I am under the presumption that, in the case of time restricted tickets being used at the wrong time on the correct date (as opposed to an advance ticket on a specified train), any penalty fare issued instead of an excess to the cheapest valid ticket, has been wrongly issued? (NRCoT 9.5)

Correct

 

[Ziggiesden]

This is a classic example of where basic expectations and training of customer-facing staff need to be adjusted so that looking up restriction codes in response to a passenger enquiry is a day to day part of the job.

Curiously, I had to point this out to a Customer Operations Director Recently - 20/01/2025:

Hi,

Janice pointed to the new "baby faces" on the Gateline today.

Yes, I feel old.

Anyways, I thought I'd go out with a simplifier for them so they give out the correct information.

They said they had one so I asked to see it to ensure it was in date. They had an A4 version of the poster that came from Revenue that shows incorrect information. We still have the full sized one on the main concourse even though it too shows incorrect information. I have complained a number of times but it is still there. I also, at the time, pointed out the A4 version was wrong - some corrections were made but it is still wrong and misleading too as it lends itself to the parrot fashion method of learning instead of thinking Product - Restriction Code - Easements - Train Time applicable.

I gave them a copy of the simplifier that shows the correct information, for the moment.

Depending on who is on we're having to stamp tickets or give Authority to Travel as Passengers keep getting bounced when they should not, subsequently missing their chosen service that can cause rather expensive claims like the recent one for Newcastle with a Passenger with a Combination of Tickets bounced with a CDS (C6) for Dunbar meaning their subsequent Advance Ticket was void for the 17:21 KGX when the first ticket was actually valid. The young lad, when questioned, did not know what a C6 Restriction was.
Embarrassing.

He was learning parrot fashion that CDR at that time wasn't valid when, of course, many are.

Ross Currie is looking at getting things simplified as the current incarnation of restrictions is really confusing but in the interim it is important that all information is accurate especially come 1st September when we will face unlimited fines:

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act: identification principle for economic crime offences - GOV.UK

I feel sorry for the staff as they have no chance at all if they are not thoroughly trained and more importantly given the correct information.

Regards,

He replied:

Hi,

Thanks for raising - I contact the training team.