ORR says passengers cannot rely on Help points working

[Snow1964]

ORR has issued a media release that passengers cannot rely on help points (this topic was also recently discussed in passenger locked in at Oxenholme thread. Apparently 17% of stations do not have them.

Seems that during a recent audit, 25% of stations with help point, had at least one not working, (note 3 says there are 4500, so that is over 1100 not working), which seems really poor to me, do others think the same.

Help points at stations enable passengers to speak to a member of staff and are found at 83% of stations across the GB rail network. Passengers most commonly use help points to ask for information about when the next train is, but they are also sometimes used to ask for passenger assistance or to report an emergency. Passengers can access an equivalent service by calling a freephone number at the 325 unstaffed or partially staffed stations without a help point.

The Office of Rail and Road reviewed data from 21 operators of stations responsible for help points at more than 2,500 stations in Britain; and also reviewed Department for Transport and Transport Scotland data from routine service quality audits.

The report found:

• A quarter of stations audited for DfT in England between April 2023 and August 2024 had at least one help point reported as not working when inspected.
• Operators’ approaches to testing their help points vary significantly, and we are concerned that operators may not be identifying and therefore fixing issues promptly.
• There is a risk that help point and freephone services are impacted by poor mobile coverage in remote areas.
• Not all operators collect and use data from help point calls, and so are not able to assure the quality of their service or understand the needs of passengers using help points.

ORR has asked station operators to review their approaches to monitoring the availability of help points and to carry out a risk assessment for the unstaffed and partially staffed stations on their network that rely on mobile phone coverage for help point or freephone communication connectivity. In early 2025, ORR will seek to understand the actions being taken by station operators to address these areas.

To ensure continuity of services for passengers, operators should complete timely delivery of their plans for the switch-off of the landline network (PSTN) ahead of 2027 if they have not already done so.

Passengers cannot consistently rely on help points at stations, says rail regulator | Office of Rail and Road

Operators need to make improvements to their management of passenger help points at stations, says the rail regulator, after a report highlights poor reliability and monitoring of service quality, particularly for stations in England.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[Horizon22]

ORR has issued a media release that passengers cannot rely on help points (this topic was also recently discussed in passenger locked in at Oxenholme thread. Apparently 17% of stations do not have them.

Seems that during a recent audit, 25% of stations with help point, had at least one not working, (note 3 says there are 4500, so that is over 1100 not working), which seems really poor to me, do others think the same.

Passengers cannot consistently rely on help points at stations, says rail regulator | Office of Rail and Road

Operators need to make improvements to their management of passenger help points at stations, says the rail regulator, after a report highlights poor reliability and monitoring of service quality, particularly for stations in England.

www.orr.gov.uk

I know some stations have significantly more than 2 help points (which would be the average) so there is probably less overall coverage (I.e more stations with zero), or the ORRs numbers are wrong

 

[185]

Diverting the information button to a call centre Hyderabad was a bad idea.

People who urgently need to speak to control ie train company are often frightened to press the red emergency button.

 

[Snow1964]

Diverting the information button to a call centre Hyderabad was a bad idea.

People who urgently need to speak to control ie train company are often frightened to press the red emergency button.

The ORR have used illustration with green emergency button, red being a fire alarm, so is there inconsistencies in button colours ?

 

[Horizon22]

The ORR have used illustration with green emergency button, red being a fire alarm, so is there inconsistencies in button colours ?

Where I am is green for emergency, blue for info. No red fire alarm.

 

[185]

so is there inconsistencies in button colours ?

I think the primary interest in the investigation is not the aesthetic design, it is the what (if anything) happens when you press the button.

In an age where the railway relies on GSM mobile communications, you would assume if their is a local power supply, these devices should be simple to build.

 

[lookapigeon]

Is there a specific configuration for the help points, in terms of the numbers they dial (as in will they dial X first and then try Y if no response) and the connectivity? Are they hard wired or do they rely on the mobile phone network?
I ask as once upon a time I tried to use one and pressing either the information or emergency buttons would get a message of this person's phone is unavailable from Vodafone- I can only presume they'd programmed in the mobile number of the station and the person having the phone had wandered into an area with naff reception.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Last time I used a help point I pressed information and was put through to an Indian call centre. It's fair to say my Hindi was better than their English.

 

[Horizon22]

Is there a specific configuration for the help points, in terms of the numbers they dial (as in will they dial X first and then try Y if no response) and the connectivity? Are they hard wired or do they rely on the mobile phone network?
I ask as once upon a time I tried to use one and pressing either the information or emergency buttons would get a message of this person's phone is unavailable from Vodafone- I can only presume they'd programmed in the mobile number of the station and the person having the phone had wandered into an area with naff reception.

We had a discussion in these forums earlier this year about what pressing the "Emergency" button does but I cannot find the thread. Most places it went through to TOC control, but some places was effectively dialling 999 I think.

Last time I used a help point I pressed information and was put through to an Indian call centre. It's fair to say my Hindi was better than their English.

That's the default for phone NRES enquiries. I intervened with some poor chap who had pressed this button and was then trying to phonetically spell out his destination station to the other end...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I question the need for them now - speculative thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/are-help-points-on-stations-necessary-any-more.276643/

 

[OhNoAPacer]

The advantage of a help point, indicated with an obvious help point sign iver relying on passengers using their own phones is that it is easier to make the help point obvious but less easy to make ring this number for assistance notices clear and obvious.

 

[The exile]

The advantage of a help point, indicated with an obvious help point sign iver relying on passengers using their own phones is that it is easier to make the help point obvious but less easy to make ring this number for assistance notices clear and obvious.

Only any good if it is answered by someone who has local knowledge and is able to do more that replicate what might as well be a recorded message. I have never failed to get through from a help point but the responses have ranged from the clueless to the downright falsehood.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Only any good if it is answered by someone who has local knowledge and is able to do more that replicate what might as well be a recorded message. I have never failed to get through from a help point but the responses have ranged from the clueless to the downright falsehood.

This also applies to whoever answers the phone.

 

[The exile]

This also applies to whoever answers the phone.

I was referring to whoever answered the phone…

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I was referring to whoever answered the phone…

Is this a case of me arguing with someone I agree with?

I misinterpreted your response, so my bad.

 

[The exile]

Is this a case of me arguing with someone I agree with?

I misinterpreted your response, so my bad.

I think it was. A couple of illustrations:
Someone answering a help point from a Bristol area station should be pretty immediately alert to the likelihood someone asking about getting to Abbey Wood following a cancellation may well want Filton rather than Kent. Likewise, Bradford is quite possibly in Wiltshire, not Yorkshire.

 

[Ken X]

Only any good if it is answered by someone who has local knowledge and is able to do more that replicate what might as well be a recorded message. I have never failed to get through from a help point but the responses have ranged from the clueless to the downright falsehood.

When I was involved in sorting out alarms in passenger lifts we used software which informed the operator by audio and visual displays the location of the lift alarm activated. Some systems activated a camera in the lift as an additional feature. All this happened before the operator replied to the alarm call. In addition, the call could not be terminated by the caller, only the operator could close down the line.

I would be disappointed if a similar system was not in use for remote alarm calls initiated from station help points.

 

[Deepgreen]

I have only ever used help points three times, and in all cases the infomation supplied was wrong!

 

[The exile]

When I was involved in sorting out alarms in passenger lifts we used software which informed the operator by audio and visual displays the location of the lift alarm activated. Some systems activated a camera in the lift as an additional feature. All this happened before the operator replied to the alarm call. In addition, the call could not be terminated by the caller, only the operator could close down the line.

I would be disappointed if a similar system was not in use for remote alarm calls initiated from station help points.

Pleased to say I’ve never needed to use the emergency / alarm function on these help points - but the incompetence of the “help” function doesn’t inspire confidence.

 

[skyhigh]

We had a discussion in these forums earlier this year about what pressing the "Emergency" button does but I cannot find the thread. Most places it went through to TOC control, but some places was effectively dialling 999 I think.

I think that is part of the problem. There is effectively zero standardisation between TOCs, and even within TOCs sometimes.

 

[stadler]

As mentioned i think one of the issues is that where the emergency button connects to varies massively depending on which TOC manages the station. Some of them (like GTR) connect to control. Some of them (like SWR) connect to BTP. Some of them (like WMT) connect to 999.

Some TOCs like GTR and SE actually regularly tell their passengers to press the emergency button if they are stranded or the last train is cancelled. You see them telling passengers this on Twitter often. This makes sense as pressing the information button and getting through to NRE is useless. However some passengers might then think that the emergency button on all help points in the UK connect to the TOC control when in fact some connect to BTP and some even connect to 999.

I think there ought to be some consistency. All help points should work in the same way. Hopefully in the future that can be done. Maybe when GBR happens (if it ever does) then they will sort this out.

This is what i know about which help points connect to where:

AVANTI WEST COAST:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - ????

C2C:
• Information (Blue) - ????
• Emergency (Green) - ????

CHILTERN RAILWAYS:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - ????

EAST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• Information (Blue) - ????
• Emergency (Green) - ????

ELIZABETH LINE:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - EL Control at Romford ROC

GATWICK EXPRESS:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - GTR Control at TBD ROC

GREAT NORTHERN:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - GTR Control at TBD ROC

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - ????
• Next Train (Yellow) - Plays Automated Announcement (button does not work anymore)

GREATER ANGLIA:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - 999

ISLAND LINE:
• Information (Blue) - SWR Control in Basingstoke (redirects to NRE in Mumbai if nobody picks up within a certain amount of seconds)
• Emergency (Green) - BTP 0800 405040

LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY:
• Information (Blue) - LNER Control in York
• Emergency (Green) - LNER Control in York

LONDON NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• Information (Blue) - WMR Control in Birmingham
• Emergency (Green) - 999

LONDON OVERGROUND:
• Information (Blue) - ????
• Emergency (Green) - ????

LONDON UNDERGROUND:
• Information (Blue) - ????
• Emergency (Green) - ????

MERSEYRAIL:
• Information (Blue) - ????
• Emergency (Red) - ????

NORTHERN:
• Information (Blue) - Northern Control in Manchester or York
• Emergency (Green) - Northern Control in Manchester or York

SCOTRAIL:
• Information (Blue) - Scotrail Control in Dunfermline or Paisley
• Emergency (Green) - Scotrail Control in Dunfermline or Paisley

SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• Information (Blue) - SWR Control in Basingstoke (redirects to NRE in Mumbai if nobody picks up within a certain amount of seconds)
• Emergency (Green) - BTP 0800 405040

SOUTHERN:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - GTR Control at TBD ROC

SOUTHEASTERN:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - SE Control at KICC in London
• Assistance (Black) - SE Control at KICC in London

THAMESLINK:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - GTR Control at TBD ROC

TRANS PENNINE EXPRESS:
• Information (Blue) - TPE Control in Manchester
• Emergency (Green) - TPE Control in Manchester

TRANSPORT FOR WALES:
• Information (Blue) - NRE in Mumbai in India
• Emergency (Green) - TFW Control in Cardiff

WEST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• Information (Blue) - WMR Control in Birmingham
• Emergency (Green) - 999

If anyone knows any of the blanks then that would be very helpful to know.

I do think getting help points to connect to NRE in Mumbai in India is such a poor decision. These staff are unable to help with anything other than the most basic questions about train times. They do not even have access to internal systems. All they do is look up your journey on live departure boards and journey planners and tell you what you can already see online. So unless you have no internet access then they are not much use. They are also useless in disruption. They have no way to contact the TOC control. They have no way to book taxis. All they can do is give you the customer service phone number for the train company.

The other major problem with help points is that they automatically disconnect after five minutes. This applies for all help points regardless of what button you press or who you connect to. So exactly five minutes after pressing the button the help point then disconnects. It can often take an entire minute until someone answers so then you only have four minutes of talk time. I have often seen people on Twitter complain about being disconnected. Giving just five minutes is not enough. Sometimes for more complicating issues they have to put you on hold and look in to things. Then once it disconnects after five minutes you have to press the button again and explain your issue all over again. So this setup of programming them to disconnect after five minutes is very poor.

As for reliability it does seem quite poor. At least in my area at GTR and SWR stations i find broken ones quite often that are just dead and nothing happens when you press the buttons. I think some of the older style ones still used by a few TOCs like Scotrail are even less reliable. The only long term broken ones i can think of are Corrour and Rannoch which have both been broken for at least three years (if not longer) and presumably the remote locations are preventing them from being fixed.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The advantage of a help point, indicated with an obvious help point sign iver relying on passengers using their own phones is that it is easier to make the help point obvious but less easy to make ring this number for assistance notices clear and obvious.

They could change the announcement, instead of see it, say it sorted the could try ring it, say it, confused in Hyderabad..

 

[sheff1]

This is what i know about which help points connect to where:

Glad to see some have changed for the better.

The last time I used a WMR help point some clueless Indian call centre told me the station I was standing at didn’t exist.

With Northern an equally clueless Indian call centre told me a train would depart in 2 mins. No such train existed.

In both places I was able to continue my journey by bus, but others may not have the required knowledge to sort themselves out.

As well as helpoints not working, someone (not sure if this would be ORR) should mandate that putting ‘information’ calls through to people who cannot provide accurate info is not acceptable, with suitable monitoring to ensure the practice is stopped.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I know these buttons are tested regularly and indeed have attended station audits where they are tested.

However I had to use one of the buttons a couple of months after coming across someone who had fallen on the footbridge. Whilst he had called an ambulance it hadn’t appeared, and we wanted the train company to be aware of the incident.

When there was no answer I tweeted the TOC, and contacted the station manger over social media. Both contacted control who also called an ambulance. The outcome being two ambulances arrived at the same time!

It didn’t solve the issue though of the helppoint not being answered

 

[cslusarc]

Would you feel more confident in using a 3-button Help Point like Southeastern's offering a black "Assistance" button too?

 

[Nova1]

I'm not certain a third button is really needed, it's just that having the information button go to NRE is useless.

 

[TUC]

Surely the key issue is that, whoever the Help button links to, all TOCs serving the station should have a clear protocol with them as to the process and responses that should take place when a call is made.

 

[WAB]

They have no way to contact the TOC control

They have done so on occasion, but trying to get sense out of them is very painful indeed.

That the emergency buttons go to different places is something that I have flagged up to staff in the past. They have advised passengers to use the emergency button to contact TOC staff when stations are unstaffed, despite them going through to 999 in certain areas leading to complaints.

As far as I’m concerned, all information buttons should go through to TOC customer service centres and all emergency buttons should go through to TOC control.

 

[TUC]

They have done so on occasion, but trying to get sense out of them is very painful indeed.

That the emergency buttons go to different places is something that I have flagged up to staff in the past. They have advised passengers to use the emergency button to contact TOC staff when stations are unstaffed, despite them going through to 999 in certain areas leading to complaints.

As far as I’m concerned, all information buttons should go through to TOC customer service centres and all emergency buttons should go through to TOC control.

Where they do go through to NRE, it also suggests poor quality staff who are faced with a passenger at risk but lack the initiative to escalate the issue if they do not know the solution..

 

[MarkWi72]

A friend of mine at Lye was told , the Friday before last a train had already left, going to Shirley. It hadn't arrived (luckily).

Just use Traksy.