Over 60s - London transport, not a local

[aye2beeviasea]

Hello, an elderly relative who lives outside London is planning a visit.

She has a local over-60s bus pass.

Am I right in thinking that she can get free bus travel in London, but will have to pay regular adult fares for tubes, trams, trains, zip wires and so on?

If so, what times of day can she use it (if not any time) and does she have to tap in or just show the pass when questioned?

Also, if she uses her contactless bank card for tube fares, can she get a discount with the over-60s pass, or with a senior railcard, and if so how?

Thanks

 

[Typhoon]

Hello, an elderly relative who lives outside London is planning a visit.

She has a local over-60s bus pass.

Am I right in thinking that she can get free bus travel in London, but will have to pay regular adult fares for tubes, trams, trains, zip wires and so on?

If so, what times of day can she use it (if not any time) and does she have to tap in or just show the pass when questioned?

Also, if she uses her contactless bank card for tube fares, can she get a discount with the over-60s pass, or with a senior railcard, and if so how?

Thanks

I can't answer all your questions.

I'm not certain what is meant by a local over-60s bus pass. If it is ENCTS pass (which used to be over 60s but are creeping towards 66 in line with the pension age), you can use them on red buses*. It is (probably) no good putting it on the card reader in the bus, you need to show the driver who will either nod slightly or ignore her. I travel to London fairly frequently, only once had a problem and it has been accepted by inspectors. The card can only be used from 09:30, no matter what happens in your relative's area.

Now, using the tube - I have purchased an Oyster card, you can get the staff at a (manned) station to 'attach' the senior railcard to the Oyster card (see https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards#on-this-page-12). Its a bit time consuming (or it was for me, first time). You can get the purchase price of the Oyster card back when you don't need it any more. I can't see how the contactless bank card would work as they have no way of knowing that the owner is over sixty-whatever and living in England.

If it is another type of over-60s pass (London has 60+ Oyster cards for instance), then I doubt it but I don't know of any other scheme.

* - you have said elderly so I guess it is the ENCTS card - red rose in top left corner, photo underneath and county logo to the right, blue stripe on right edge.

 

[Nick66]

If it’s an England over-60 Card it can be used on all buses; not aware of any time restriction but may be wrong. Unfortunately all other modes of transport must be paid for. Using contactless you can’t add any discounts but if she gets an Oyster Card she can link a Senior Railcard to the card and get the discount. Any staff member will do it and if she doesn’t need the card later she can get the deposit and any credit refunded on leaving London at any tube station.

Source: done it for my mother

Edit: Typhoon beat me too it but I’ll leave my post re the contactless info

 

[Typhoon]

From https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/freedom-pass?intcmp=1742

"Concessionary bus passes from outside London
If you're from outside London and have a bus pass issued by another English council, you can use it, at any time, to travel free on buses displaying the red roundel.

You should show your pass to the driver; at the moment they can't be read by the yellow card readers. If the bus you're on doesn't display the red roundel, check with the driver if you can use it; most will let you travel free between 09:30 and 23:00 on weekdays, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

English National Concessionary Passes issued by English councils outside London can't be used on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground, TfL Rail or National Rail services."

As this is from TfLs website, it should be sound. This should also answer most of your questions - I guess you can add zip-wire to the last list. If the bus doesn't have the red roundel it is probably a cross border bus and the card will be valid in the same way as it would be in your relative's area.

 

[aye2beeviasea]

Thank you both, that's very helpful, and that link was what I failed to find on tfl's website

Yes, it's a red rose pass.

Tfl's page seems to suggest that 'proper' London buses allow use of the pass anytime, and it's only specialist operators that stick to the peak times, but it's no great problem if not.

 

[Nick66]

The time restriction was the one I wasn’t sure about. There are very few, if any non-TfL buses in London so shouldn’t be an issue.

 

[Typhoon]

The time restriction was the one I wasn’t sure about. There are very few, if any TfL buses in London so shouldn’t be an issue.

Do you mean 'There are very few, if any non-TfL buses in London so shouldn’t be an issue?'

I would agree - unless you are close to the border (places like Kingston) where an town inside the border is the focal point for areas outside.

 

[Typhoon]

Thank you both, that's very helpful, and that link was what I failed to find on tfl's website

Yes, it's a red rose pass.

Tfl's page seems to suggest that 'proper' London buses allow use of the pass anytime, and it's only specialist operators that stick to the peak times, but it's no great problem if not.

You are right!

Shows I should have read this. I must admit I am not often in London before 09:30 but I have deliberately let a bus go by as it was just before 09:30. Curses!

 

[Busaholic]

I can confirm, by my own experience, that you can use the buses 24 hours per day, if you so choose, but nothing else, even the trams. I've been using my pass like this in London coming up for ten years: whether I've ever actually cost the London ratepayer anything is debatable, as my use of the Oyster to its capped extent most days means the bus travel would have been included in that too. Most drivers will, at best, nod when you present the pass: I've had one case in ten years of the pass being scrutinised, and that was when I was 60! I'll also be contentious, and say that if boarding a New Routemaster bus (so-called) you may use all three entrances i.e. you can by-pass the driver: confirmed on two occasions by revenue inspectors.

 

[philthetube]

Do you mean 'There are very few, if any non-TfL buses in London so shouldn’t be an issue?'

I would agree - unless you are close to the border (places like Kingston) where an town inside the border is the focal point for areas outside.

There are a few, certainly UNI bus around Stamore for one.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...and back to the question of Railcards and Oyster:
IF you have an Oyster Card then you can have a Railcard discount applied to it. That will cut tube fares and daily caps to ~2/3 the normal rates.

 

[ashworth]

...and back to the question of Railcards and Oyster:
IF you have an Oyster Card then you can have a Railcard discount applied to it. That will cut tube fares and daily caps to ~2/3 the normal rates.

Once you have Senior Railcard discount applied to an Oyster Card are you ever likely to be asked to show your railcard at barriers to enter the tube or when boarding a bus?
I know it’s probably highly unlikely, especially when boarding a bus, but I did wonder. If travelling late at night, I tend to just keep my Oyster Card secure, but easily accessible, in a pocket and apart from a small amount of cash I don’t like to carry my wallet and cards with me.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Probably only if/when there is a revenue block in place (I guess).

 

[AM9]

There are a few, certainly UNI bus around Stamore for one.

The Green Line services operated from Hertfordshire (usually UNO or Arriva) are restricted to after 09:30 M-F, which I think applies to the TfL area as well.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The Green Line services operated from Hertfordshire (usually UNO or Arriva) are restricted to after 09:30 M-F, which I think applies to the TfL area as well.

Yes, ENCTS passes (including London Freedom Passes) can only be used on non-TfL routes within Greater London between 09.30-23.00 on weekdays.

 

[Busaholic]

...and back to the question of Railcards and Oyster:
IF you have an Oyster Card then you can have a Railcard discount applied to it. That will cut tube fares and daily caps to ~2/3 the normal rates.

May I ask how you go about getting the discount applied? My Oyster was issued years ago, and I don't think was ever 'registered' to me, so will this be a problem?

 

[Harpers Tate]

See here:
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards#on-this-page-10

As far as I recall, "register" involved me completing a paper form and handing it back to (what at the time was) the ticket office.

 

[rebmcr]

May I ask how you go about getting the discount applied? My Oyster was issued years ago, and I don't think was ever 'registered' to me, so will this be a problem?

Just approach a ticket machine attendant.

 

[Busaholic]

See here:
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards#on-this-page-10

As far as I recall, "register" involved me completing a paper form and handing it back to (what at the time was) the ticket office.

I went into the Victoria Station Enquiry Office and the guy behind the counter dealt with it very quickly and efficiently without me having to fill out a form, sign anything, or 'prove my identity'. Full marks.

 

[PeterC]

I went into the Victoria Station Enquiry Office and the guy behind the counter dealt with it very quickly and efficiently without me having to fill out a form, sign anything, or 'prove my identity'. Full marks.

Presumably the card with your photo was accepted as identification.

 

[unlevel42]

A Senior Railcard does not have a photograph on it.

From past experience I know that if I see staff at the TfL ticket machine on arrival in London I ask them to register my Senior Railcard on my Oyster as it sometimes forgets the Railcard (after 12 months?).
I also make sure that everybody else does the same individually as you can only register your own ENCTS or Railcard even very annoyingly a Disabled Railcard or ENCTS.
You cannot register a Two Together Railcard on the Oyster.

 

[PeterC]

A Senior Railcard does not have a photograph on it.

From past experience I know that if I see staff at the TfL ticket machine on arrival in London I ask them to register my Senior Railcard on my Oyster as it sometimes forgets the Railcard (after 12 months?).
I also make sure that everybody else does the same individually as you can only register your own ENCTS or Railcard even very annoyingly a Disabled Railcard or ENCTS.
You cannot register a Two Together Railcard on the Oyster.

You use your existing ENCTS card on buses and undiscounted Oyster on everything else.

 

[Busaholic]

You use your existing ENCTS card on buses and undiscounted Oyster on everything else.

My experience on my recent trip to London on using ENCTS was that two drivers 'registered' my usage with a press of a button which produced a bleep, and about two dozen didn't, one or two nodding, another few utterly impervious, another couple beckoning me past impatiently: oh, and I entered via centre door (once) and rear door (twice) on LTs and just went and sat down. There seems no impetus coming from TfL to acquire machines capable of reading the ENCTS, which I can understand in these straitened times.

 

[ashworth]

Probably only if/when there is a revenue block in place (I guess).

So how likely is it that I would ever be asked to show my Senior Railcard if using an Oyster Card linked to it on late night tube and bus journeys?

 

[transmanche]

So how likely is it that I would ever be asked to show my Senior Railcard if using an Oyster Card linked to it on late night tube and bus journeys?

I am fairly certain you will never be asked to show a Senior Railcard. (I have never been asked to show a 16-25 Railcard linked to an Oyster card, other than when having the discount registered on the card. Effectively showing the railcard when registering your discount is your proof that you possess the railcard.)

If you have an ENCTS card as well as a Senior Railcard, then you don't need to use your Oyster card on late-night bus journeys. TfL accepts ENCTS cards for free travel on their buses at any time.

 

[ashworth]

I am fairly certain you will never be asked to show a Senior Railcard. (I have never been asked to show a 16-25 Railcard linked to an Oyster card, other than when having the discount registered on the card. Effectively showing the railcard when registering your discount is your proof that you possess the railcard.)

If you have an ENCTS card as well as a Senior Railcard, then you don't need to use your Oyster card on late-night bus journeys. TfL accepts ENCTS cards for free travel on their buses at any time.

Thanks for that. As I said in my previous post I would rather not carry lots of cards around with me late at night on my occasional visits to London. I’d rather just travel with my Oyster card and not carry my wallet and other cards with me.

I’m in that age group, which will become an increasing number of people in the next few years, where I have reached 60 but will not get my ENTS card until I am 66+. It will just be my luck that the ENTS Card in its current form will no longer exist in 6 years time when I reach 66.

 

[Busaholic]

I am fairly certain you will never be asked to show a Senior Railcard. (I have never been asked to show a 16-25 Railcard linked to an Oyster card, other than when having the discount registered on the card. Effectively showing the railcard when registering your discount is your proof that you possess the railcard.)

If you have an ENCTS card as well as a Senior Railcard, then you don't need to use your Oyster card on late-night bus journeys. TfL accepts ENCTS cards for free travel on their buses at any time.

I've not attempted to trawl through all the regulations (life's too short) but, even in this age, I'd be surprised if it were a requirement to carry the Senior Railcard once it (or, more accurately, its existence) was loaded on to an Oyster, even if you were travelling on a National Rail service.

 

[PeterC]

I've not attempted to trawl through all the regulations (life's too short) but, even in this age, I'd be surprised if it were a requirement to carry the Senior Railcard once it (or, more accurately, its existence) was loaded on to an Oyster, even if you were travelling on a National Rail service.

From the Senior Railcard T&Cs

2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and your valid Railcard signed by you. Your Railcard must be within its period of validity when you travel and should be legible so staff can read it, as further detailed in the NRCoT.

I have no idea if this would be enforced by a TfL RPI in practice but I haven't found an explicit exception.

 

[MikeWh]

Some corrections/clarifications.

Whilst checks are rare, revenue staff will know that there is a railcard discount applied to the Oyster card and are well within their rights to request to see the card. This even applies on buses.

The railcard discounts off-peak single fares and the off-peak cap. The off-peak cap applies after 0930 Mon-Fri. There is no discount on single fares between 0630-0930 or between 1600-1900, but the afternoon fares will still be limited by the off-peak cap.

 

[Busaholic]

Some corrections/clarifications.

Whilst checks are rare, revenue staff will know that there is a railcard discount applied to the Oyster card and are well within their rights to request to see the card. This even applies on buses.

The railcard discounts off-peak single fares and the off-peak cap. The off-peak cap applies after 0930 Mon-Fri. There is no discount on single fares between 0630-0930 or between 1600-1900, but the afternoon fares will still be limited by the off-peak cap.

What happens to the Oyster when the railcard expires? Will the discount automatically be removed, and have to be re-applied if the railcard gets renewed?