Paddington train too full to board....at Exeter St Davids? (28/09/2024)

[Kilopylae]

Mod Note: Thread title originally said Waterloo, now clarified to be Paddington.

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

[alistairlees]

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

09.16 to London Paddington? There were no trains from Exeter to Waterloo today (replacement buses instead).

 

[Parallel]

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

As far as I can see, South Western Railway were operating buses today between Exeter St Davids and Axminster.

The London Paddington service was only formed of 5 coaches instead of 10 according to RTT. It looks like there was a set swap between 5 car sets at Plymouth.

 

[JonathanH]

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

There was no 0916 to Waterloo. The 0916 to Paddington was a short formed 5-car IET - with a set swap at Plymouth on the working from Penzance.

 

[800001]

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

They most likely meant 1A76 0612 Penzance to London Paddington which was formed of a 5 car. Most likely already full and standing prior to arrival at Exeter.

There were no Waterloo services departing Exeter today, buses to Axminster.

 

[Irascible]

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

There have been the odd times in the past when WoE line services really have filled up at Exeter, but services used to be shorter. The line is a commuter route too, but that's the wrong way for 9am...

 

[pompeyfan]

there is however a booked 3 car 159 (I think it’s the 1125 Exeter St David’s - Waterloo) that is often declared full and standing from Exeter St David’s and first class declassified from Central. From what I’ve been told the problem originates from the number of advance singles that are sold for this train.

 

[Kilopylae]

They most likely meant 1A76 0612 Penzance to London Paddington which was formed of a 5 car. Most likely already full and standing prior to arrival at Exeter.

I've told them consensus is it was the Paddington train, either due to mis-announcement or mis-remembering!

Short-formed GWR is less of a surprise, if a bit frustrating that it's still happening.

there is however a booked 3 car 159 (I think it’s the 1125 Exeter St David’s - Waterloo) that is often declared full and standing from Exeter St David’s and first class declassified from Central. From what I’ve been told the problem originates from the number of advance singles that are sold for this train.

This is a fascinating titbit - aren't there caps on how many Advances can be sold?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

there is however a booked 3 car 159 (I think it’s the 1125 Exeter St David’s - Waterloo) that is often declared full and standing from Exeter St David’s and first class declassified from Central. From what I’ve been told the problem originates from the number of advance singles that are sold for this train.

I very railways thought process though, the problem originates from too many wanting to travel, I beg to differ, the problem originates from the train being too short to cope with demand

 

[pokemonsuper9]

aren't there caps on how many Advances can be sold?

A TOC can sell as many as they want, an advance must have a reservation, but counted place reservations (no seat reserved) can be used.

And even if every seat is sold out to advanced ticket users, that doesn't change the fact that people with flexible tickets can still board as they wish.

 

[uglymonkey]

That's fine, but if you turn up in good faith,only to be crushed in like sardines or refused travel, you won't do it again so the railways lose a customer who probably will bad mouth the railway to other customers and put them off.So its false economy.

 

[duffield]

That's fine, but if you turn up in good faith,only to be crushed in like sardines or refused travel, you won't do it again so the railways lose a customer who probably will bad mouth the railway to other customers and put them off.So its false economy.

This is normal. Various parts of the railway have this issue frequently (e.g. Cross Country). If people are driven off the railway either by overcrowding or priced off, the DfT counts that as a win since they don't have to authorise more rolling stock. Policy working exactly as designed.

Hopefully this will change under the new government, but I wouldn't necessarily count on it.

 

[pompeyfan]

I very railways thought process though, the problem originates from too many wanting to travel, I beg to differ, the problem originates from the train being too short to cope with demand

I don’t disagree but there isn’t enough units to go round apparently. The inward service comes in as a 6 and detaches, with the other 3 car going off for fuel in Exeter TMD. If that detachment didn’t occur then it would be the 1525 running as a 3 car to Salisbury, plus you still have an issue of the unit requiring fuel. You could probably juggle the diagrams regarding fuel, but there simply isn’t enough 159s / 158s to ensure everything is 5 or 6 coaches west of Salisbury.

 

[Horizon22]

There have been the odd times in the past when WoE line services really have filled up at Exeter, but services used to be shorter. The line is a commuter route too, but that's the wrong way for 9am...

This was a Saturday and I’d say that’s peak time for getting into London around midday

That's fine, but if you turn up in good faith,only to be crushed in like sardines or refused travel, you won't do it again so the railways lose a customer who probably will bad mouth the railway to other customers and put them off.So its false economy.

Yet weekend after weekend for months trains have been full and standing - on certain routes and times - without any relevant disruption. Bare in mind this was a 5-car subbing in for a 10 car so probably now over-reserved and so counts as some level of ‘disruption’

There are two solutions to this in classic economics - increase supply (longer trains / more services) or decrease demand (higher fares / less attractive to travel). Most sane businesses would do the former and increase profits / revenue but the DfT has seemed content with the latter.

A TOC can sell as many as they want, an advance must have a reservation, but counted place reservations (no seat reserved) can be used.

And even if every seat is sold out to advanced ticket users, that doesn't change the fact that people with flexible tickets can still board as they wish.

There’s definitely some routes where it seems too many advances are being sold where, frankly, they could fill the seats at a higher price threshold.

 

[DelW]

There are two solutions to this in classic economics - increase supply (longer trains / more services) or decrease demand (higher fares / less attractive to travel). Most sane businesses would do the former and increase profits / revenue but the DfT has seemed content with the latter.

My suspicion (admittedly cynically) is that the DfT is dancing to the Treasury's tune, and that the Treasury's thinking boils down to:

Fewer travellers on trains = fewer trains needed = reduction in subsidy

More travellers in cars = more cars and fuel sold = increase in tax revenue

It seems the most obvious reason for the apparent desire to make train travel into a distress purchase for those with no other option, by making it too often such an expensive and unpleasant experience.

 

[Horizon22]

My suspicion (admittedly cynically) is that the DfT is dancing to the Treasury's tune, and that the Treasury's thinking boils down to:

Fewer travellers on trains = fewer trains needed = reduction in subsidy

More travellers in cars = more cars and fuel sold = increase in tax revenue

It seems the most obvious reason for the apparent desire to make train travel into a distress purchase for those with no other option, by making it too often such an expensive and unpleasant experience.

They may however continue to keep the £2 bus subsidy so their thinking is muddled at best.

Also I think the marginal cost to the railway of “an extra carriage” is higher.

 

[JonathanH]

They do however continue to keep the £2 bus subsidy so their thinking is muddled at best.

Until the end of the year - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/will-labour-scrap-the-£2-fare-cap.273915/ - not sure how anything is muddled thinking - it isn't really the same market or objective.

 

[Horizon22]

Until the end of the year - not sure how anything is muddled thinking.

Towards transport generally - one sector prices are actively being frozen to encourage travel and in another they continue to rise.

Also the £2 has been extended on several occasions and seems pretty successful but this is getting off-topic

 

[brad465]

Today is also Sunday, a day that in recent times has seen GWR plagued by staff/driver shortages, so what services that do run are going to be more crowded with passengers from cancelled services on top of normal loads. Throw in a short form and the described situation is inevitable. Last Sunday there was a 5-car Bristol-PAD diagram that was full and standing leaving Bristol itself too (there may have been more than 1 service with this issue, but the one in question left while I was at that station itself (16:30).

 

[Starmill]

The Fare Cap Grant isn't all that generous. Some bus operators have taken it only very reluctantly or not at all. However when it comes to TOCs for unregulated products such as Advance, they can sell them for whatever they please. That's just the way it is.

 

[nw1]

I am told that the 09:16 to London Waterloo was unable to pick up passengers at Exeter St Davids this morning (28 September) on the basis that it "is not allowed to pick up any more passengers at this station, as conditions would become unsafe if it did", with people banging on the doors. My friend has asked me how this is possible given that the trains originate at EXD (so how can they already be full), I don't have a good answer for them. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Realising it was Paddington not Waterloo, but surprised that a Saturday morning train from Exeter to London outside peak season would be full and standing even with 5 coaches. I'd have expected peak demand from the South West to London to be Friday evening (for people visiting London for the weekend) or Sunday evening (for Londoners returning from a trip to the South West for the weekend).

 

[Purple Train]

Realising it was Paddington not Waterloo, but surprised that a Saturday morning train from Exeter to London outside peak season would be full and standing even with 5 coaches. I'd have expected peak demand from the South West to London to be Friday evening (for people visiting London for the weekend) or Sunday evening (for Londoners returning from a trip to the South West for the weekend).

I think you're probably correct with the times - but overcrowding seems a problem even on full-length services judging by the amount of people I see squashed into vestibules. I admit that that isn't a very scientific yardstick, but the only intercity GWR service I've ever been on that would have been comfortable with 5 coaches was an evening train between Charlbury and Reading - which was formed of 9 coaches!

 

[david1212]

Realising it was Paddington not Waterloo, but surprised that a Saturday morning train from Exeter to London outside peak season would be full and standing even with 5 coaches. I'd have expected peak demand from the South West to London to be Friday evening (for people visiting London for the weekend) or Sunday evening (for Londoners returning from a trip to the South West for the weekend).

For a weekend trip to London if you can afford two nights accommodation yes but if going for an afternoon sports fixture or other event, anything 'big' at Wembley?, travelling to arrive around mid-day then travelling back leaving 18:00 - 20:00 is reasonable.
Also while the peak holiday season has passed there will still be some from London taking a week in Cornwall & Devon.
Add in ~50% of expected capacity then as already posted you have a 'sardine special'.

 

[Starmill]

Realising it was Paddington not Waterloo, but surprised that a Saturday morning train from Exeter to London outside peak season would be full and standing even with 5 coaches. I'd have expected peak demand from the South West to London to be Friday evening (for people visiting London for the weekend) or Sunday evening (for Londoners returning from a trip to the South West for the weekend).

The trains have only 290 standard class seats. Standing wise they usually have almost no space to stand because the bike space is full of luggage and occupying first class vestibules is not permitted (unless first class has been declassified). Realistically some seats won't be able to be sat in because the storage of suitcases has to go on seats due to the decision not to include much luggage space. You can make all the announcements you like about it but on a full load people will put bags on seats regardless. Aisles and doorways are very narrow and awkward so they feel claustrophobic and cramped even with just three or four standees per vestibule. Not really sure what you're expecting people to do but clearly they aren't going to be getting a replacement bus to Axminster and then the slow service to London. Despite the trains being far longer because of all the space taken up by the unused kitchen and the first class area it's about the same number of seats as a pair of two car class 158s, and the 158s have much bigger areas to stand in (the old parcel section).

 

[nw1]

For a weekend trip to London if you can afford two nights accommodation yes but if going for an afternoon sports fixture or other event, anything 'big' at Wembley?, travelling to arrive around mid-day then travelling back leaving 18:00 - 20:00 is reasonable.

I'd have imagined Exeter is too far out for a day trip to London - but maybe I'm still stuck in a late-20th-century mindset!

 

[Starmill]

I'd have imagined Exeter is too far out for a day trip to London - but maybe I'm still stuck in a late-20th-century mindset!

Exeter has about the same journey time to London as, say, Bexhill nowadays. Only 20 minutes each way longer than Norwich, Bognor Regis, Kings Lynn etc.

 

[nw1]

Exeter has about the same journey time to London as, say, Bexhill nowadays. Only 20 minutes each way longer than Norwich, Bognor Regis, Kings Lynn etc.

But presumably much more expensive than somewhere like Bexhill due to the much greater distance.

Of course in the 80s and 90s the one would have had HSTs within InterCity and the other, Class 42x commuter EMU stock within NSE/Southern Region. Now, nothing wrong with the latter, I loved it then and I'm still strongly nostalgic for it - but nonetheless it underlines the idea of Exeter and Bexhill having very different relationships with London.

 

[Starmill]

But presumably much, much more expensive than somewhere like Bexhill.

Of course in the 80s and 90s the one would have had HSTs within InterCity and the other, Class 42x commuter EMU stock within NSE/Southern Region. Now, nothing wrong with the latter, I loved it then and I'm still strongly nostalgic for it - but nonetheless it underlines the idea of Exeter and Bexhill having very different relationships to London.

Yes of course culturally it's totally different. But we're only talking a few hundred people from the whole of Devon to London, and the train is at capacity.

 

[steven.horsfal]

Good evening l was at Exeter and travelled on the 09.16 to Paddington. It appeared that a second 5 car set was to be added at Plymouth. There was the usual lack of information at EXD about what was happening. The train came in and it was obvious that it was not crowded and seats were available. Most people waited for the following service but a fair number boarded and most found seats , as far as l could see there were standing only from Taunton.

 

[Falcon1200]

There are two solutions to this in classic economics - increase supply (longer trains / more services) or decrease demand (higher fares / less attractive to travel). Most sane businesses would do the former and increase profits / revenue but the DfT has seemed content with the latter.

I fully agree that some (but certainly not all) trains today are desperately short of capacity, causing unacceptable travelling conditions; However increasing supply to cater for the same number of passengers increases the cost of running the service, which in most cases is heavily subsidised already. Unless the fares not paid by travellers who have decamped to other modes of transport is enough to cover the additional cost?