Pantographs on Pendolinos

[PhilipW]

Although Pendolinos have 2 pantographs, only one is raised for normal use.

Is the second one purely for backup or are their occasions when both are raised and in use ?

 

[Bayum]

I think...

Say, for southbound journeys, the close one to southbound is raised, and for northbound journeys - the other is raised.

I don't think you are allowed both pantographs to be raised at High Speed though...

I know that when GNER had hired some Eurostar sets for the White Rose services from Leeds, they had to run at 110mph because of this

 

[generalvegitable]

only the rear pantograph is raised when the train is moving

 

[Bayum]

Is it only the rear??

Damn... I thought it was the one closest to the cab =/

[EDIT]

Just looked on 3/4 videos on youtube... It's the one closest to the cab, in the direction the train is moving

 

[generalvegitable]

whenever I see a pendo go past it is always the rear pantograph that is raised

 

[Bayum]

Whenever i've seen them on these video's, it's always the front pantograph thats raised =/

 

[37401]

Its a Forward/Reverse type system e.g if the train was heading from Euston-Brum the Forward one is rased, then when it does brum-euston the other one is rasied, if you ever go to Wolverhampton you can see the changeover

 

[Bayum]

Its a Forward/Reverse type system e.g if the train was heading from Euston-Brum the Forward one is rased, then when it does brum-euston the other one is rasied, if you ever go to Wolverhampton you can see the changeover

So, if the train was going to say Manchester, the forward one would be raised until Piccadilly ?? Or does the whole thing change at Wolverhampton?

 

[ukrob]

only the rear pantograph is raised when the train is moving

whenever I see a pendo go past it is always the rear pantograph that is raised

No, the front one is always used assuming there is no fault with it.

 

[37401]

So, if the train was going to say Manchester, the forward one would be raised until Piccadilly ?? Or does the whole thing change at Wolverhampton?

It would change over at Manchester, they change at all terminus stations

 

[Traineeconductor]

I think...

Say, for southbound journeys, the close one to southbound is raised, and for northbound journeys - the other is raised.

I don't think you are allowed both pantographs to be raised at High Speed though...

I know that when GNER had hired some Eurostar sets for the White Rose services from Leeds, they had to run at 110mph because of this

That's Quite funny as between Peterborough and Doncaster there is a stretch of a140 miles per hour track and the eurostars used to take full advantage of it. I as i worked 1 and also it true both pantagraphs are not to be used during high speeds.

 

[37401]

That's Quite funny as between Peterborough and Doncaster there is a stretch of a140 miles per hour track and the eurostars used to take full advantage of it. I as i worked 1 and also it true both pantagraphs are not to be used during high speeds.

the 140mph bit was Peterborough- Stoke tunnel IIRC, and it was removed before 373`s worked it

 

[Bayum]

the 140mph bit was Peterborough- Stoke tunnel IIRC, and it was removed before 373`s worked it

Thats what I was thinking...

AND

The 373's always ran with both pantographs up... But the OHLE weren't tight enough for the 373's to run above 110mph

 

[PhilipW]

From the replies I gather that it is possible that the train can run with both pantographs up subject the state of the OHLE, the speed, etc, etc.

With two pantographs up, can I take it that the train will have more power and will therefore be able to go faster, subject to it being allowed too, etc, etc

 

[ukrob]

From the replies I gather that it is possible that the train can run with both pantographs up subject the state of the OHLE, the speed, etc, etc.

With two pantographs up, can I take it that the train will have more power and will therefore be able to go faster, subject to it being allowed too, etc, etc

No, that is not the case for a Pendolino.

 

[37401]

No, that is not the case for a Pendolino.

indeed, even if the 2 pantos did make it faster the lack of "in cab signalling" would keep it at 125mph, 390`s were intended to do 140mph but because of this they only do 125mph

 

[90019]

That's Quite funny as between Peterborough and Doncaster there is a stretch of a140 miles per hour track and the eurostars used to take full advantage of it.

373s never went above 110mph on the ECML.
AFAIK, they were limited because the pantographs were designed for high speed OHLE, which is at a higher tension to the stuff on the ECML, and IIRC the risk of damage was significantly higher above 110.

 

[Bayum]

373s never went above 110mph on the ECML.
AFAIK, they were limited because the pantographs were designed for high speed OHLE, which is at a higher tension to the stuff on the ECML, and IIRC the risk of damage was significantly higher above 110.

I said that =D

At least I know what im talking about ish... =)

 

[O L Leigh]

The Eurostars had to run with both pans raised because each train is effectively in two halves, each independent of the other. The best analogy to use to describe it is to imagine a Eurostar as two EMU's working in multiple together. You can't feed power from one half through into the other, so you need to have a pan on each half.

Pendolinos are different as they are a single unit. I've never been quite sure why there is a need for them to have two pans, though. I can only assume that it just offers a degree of redundancy by providing a back-up should the leading pan be damaged en route. Provided it is safe to do so, the driver can just raise the rear pan and the train can continue as normal, removing the need to wait for a loco to drag the train away. I can't see any other benefit.

O L Leigh

 

[ukrob]

The Eurostars had to run with both pans raised because each train is effectively in two halves, each independent of the other. The best analogy to use to describe it is to imagine a Eurostar as two EMU's working in multiple together. You can't feed power from one half through into the other, so you need to have a pan on each half.

Pendolinos are different as they are a single unit. I've never been quite sure why there is a need for them to have two pans, though. I can only assume that it just offers a degree of redundancy by providing a back-up should the leading pan be damaged en route. Provided it is safe to do so, the driver can just raise the rear pan and the train can continue as normal, removing the need to wait for a loco to drag the train away. I can't see any other benefit.

O L Leigh

Quite, and of course the original plan was for the REAR pan to be used in normal service, so if it brought the wires down (or similar incident) the front could be raised as it would be undamaged as it would always be ahead of anything happening at the rear. I can't remember why this wasn't implemented.

 

[O L Leigh]

Because dewirements as seldom as "neat" as that. They are messy and hugely disruptive, and there is no guarantee that the wires under the front pan are not also damaged or that the power hasn't tripped. Given these parameters it really doesn't matter which pan is raised.

I expect that the reason for always using the leading pan is down to company policy, in that it makes the wear rates on the carbons on both pans consistent. That way both pans will require maintenance at the same time rather than mixing-up the schedules by running one pan more than the other.

O L Leigh

 

[ukrob]

Because dewirements as seldom as "neat" as that. They are messy and hugely disruptive, and there is no guarantee that the wires under the front pan are not also damaged or that the power hasn't tripped. Given these parameters it really doesn't matter which pan is raised.

I expect that the reason for always using the leading pan is down to company policy, in that it makes the wear rates on the carbons on both pans consistent. That way both pans will require maintenance at the same time rather than mixing-up the schedules by running one pan more than the other.

O L Leigh

I know they are not 'neat' - but at 125mph it is a safe bet that the front pan will be quite some distance (if not a mile) away from the damage the rear pan sustained and/or caused.

I can only assume that it just offers a degree of redundancy by providing a back-up should the leading pan be damaged en route. Provided it is safe to do so, the driver can just raise the rear pan and the train can continue as normal,

There isn't any different between what you and I said so I don't see why you are disagreeing with yourself! Nor would I say that it would continue as normal, it would just mean a Thunderbird is not needed to rescue the unit which may be terminated at the next station.

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't believe that I have contradicted myself.

Pan damage is not solely linked to dewirements, so there could be circumstances where the leading pan is damaged (which was all I said before) and the train continue as normal using the rear pan. For example, a carbon could come off the pan head triggering the Auto Dropping Device (ADD) to lower the pan before it causes any damage to the OLE.

O L Leigh

 

[37401]

even a plastic bag can damage a pan, IIRC it was on a GNER training video.

O L Leigh if there is an obstuction on the overheads and it can cause damage what happens after the signaler has been contacted, info relayed and the train has been checked for panto damage, im guessing they have to shut down the current in the section of damage, and also what happens if something hits the panto and causes damage to it? does a Diesel replacement have to be put in place?

 

[bluebottle]

I think the reason for not using both pans on a Pendolino is that the turbulence causes the rear one to occasionally lose contact. I can't be certain on that though. The reason Eurostars can use both pans is that they are long enough and aerodynamic enough that the turbulence doesn't affect the rear pan so badly. It may also be true that they are independently wired half sets but I'm not sure that's right bearing in mind the need for redundant systems in the Channel Tunnel. I'd have thought a Eurostar could operate as normal on one pan. I'm prepared to be correctd though if that's not the case.

 

[ukrob]

I think the reason for not using both pans on a Pendolino is that the turbulence causes the rear one to occasionally lose contact. I can't be certain on that though. The reason Eurostars can use both pans is that they are long enough and aerodynamic enough that the turbulence doesn't affect the rear pan so badly. It may also be true that they are independently wired half sets but I'm not sure that's right bearing in mind the need for redundant systems in the Channel Tunnel. I'd have thought a Eurostar could operate as normal on one pan. I'm prepared to be correctd though if that's not the case.

Why would you use both pans on a Pendolino when it is not needed? All it would do would be to add to maintenance costs.

And Eurostars ARE half sets. Hence each full train has two different numbers, one for each half.

 

[O L Leigh]

A plastic bag caught on the overheads is often enough to cause a dewirement if it gets caught by a passing pan, so all obstructions are reported.

When reporting an obstruction on the OLE the signaller will want to know whether it is hanging below the level of the contact wire and, therefore, if it is in danger of snagging a pan. If it is, all trains on the affected line will be stopped until the obstruction can be removed. Most obstructions can be removed without needing to turn the juice off, as Nitwit Rail have a special insulated tool that they can use. Once it's been cleared, train services can resume. There is no point running a diesel service, as the line would still need to be temporarily blocked so the obstruction could be removed. Plus it generally doesn't take long once the man in a van arrives on site.

Pan damage is a bit different. The problem is that it is not necessarily noticed at the time it happened. A colleague of mine caused a minor dewirement and lost the rear pan on an 8 car train and had no knowledge of the incident until he was stopped by the signaller more than 10 miles further on and asked to inspect his train.

However, if you do have an ADD operation you will need to stop and report it to the signaller as the OLE may also be damaged. You will then have to inspect the pan for damage and report back. If the pan is damaged then you cannot continue with it and may need to request assistance depending on the consist of your train (a double-unit has assistance built in, provided you haven't somehow damaged both pans). The OLE will also need to be inspected, but if you've come to a stand away from the area the ADD operated that job will usually fall to the next driver to pass the site on another line.

HTH

**EDIT**

Incidentally, Eurostars are made up of independent half-sets. This means that you have the redundancy required for Channel Tunnel operations, as the entire train can still move even if power is only being provided by one half-set. As I said above, the best way to think of Eurostar is as two EMU's working in multiple.

Additionally, Channel Tunnel regulations forbid the use of a high voltage "bus", so it is not possible to connect up the rear powercar to the leading pan.

O L Leigh

 

[The_Stig]

I have just checked my photographs of visits to Glasgow central and it seems that it is always the pantograph closest to the front of the train's leading cab that is used.

Hmmm, I had never noticed that before!

 

[90019]

The Eurostars had to run with both pans raised because each train is effectively in two halves

Not effectively, they are.

The best analogy to use to describe it is to imagine a Eurostar as two EMU's working in multiple together.

A Eurostar is two EMUs running back to back, I believe it's to do with regulations for running through the channel tunnel.

 

[37401]

A plastic bag caught on the overheads is often enough to cause a dewirement if it gets caught by a passing pan, so all obstructions are reported.

When reporting an obstruction on the OLE the signaller will want to know whether it is hanging below the level of the contact wire and, therefore, if it is in danger of snagging a pan. If it is, all trains on the affected line will be stopped until the obstruction can be removed. Most obstructions can be removed without needing to turn the juice off, as Nitwit Rail have a special insulated tool that they can use. Once it's been cleared, train services can resume. There is no point running a diesel service, as the line would still need to be temporarily blocked so the obstruction could be removed. Plus it generally doesn't take long once the man in a van arrives on site.

Pan damage is a bit different. The problem is that it is not necessarily noticed at the time it happened. A colleague of mine caused a minor dewirement and lost the rear pan on an 8 car train and had no knowledge of the incident until he was stopped by the signaller more than 10 miles further on and asked to inspect his train.

However, if you do have an ADD operation you will need to stop and report it to the signaller as the OLE may also be damaged. You will then have to inspect the pan for damage and report back. If the pan is damaged then you cannot continue with it and may need to request assistance depending on the consist of your train (a double-unit has assistance built in, provided you haven't somehow damaged both pans). The OLE will also need to be inspected, but if you've come to a stand away from the area the ADD operated that job will usually fall to the next driver to pass the site on another line.

HTH

**EDIT**

Incidentally, Eurostars are made up of independent half-sets. This means that you have the redundancy required for Channel Tunnel operations, as the entire train can still move even if power is only being provided by one half-set. As I said above, the best way to think of Eurostar is as two EMU's working in multiple.

Additionally, Channel Tunnel regulations forbid the use of a high voltage "bus", so it is not possible to connect up the rear powercar to the leading pan.

O L Leigh

Thanks for ze info pal, amazing what a bag can do eh?
for those who have seen The Leauge of gentlemen you`ll know that the red bag in series 3 caused havock, well in the GNER vid guess what colour the bag was

my advice avoid red plastic bags