Peak rail times 'are confusing', Which? suggests.

[ainsworth74]

Peak rail times 'are confusing', Which? suggests

Train companies have been accused of confusing passengers by having vastly different rules on what constitutes peak-time travel. Which? magazine said operators were not providing a consistent message. Some such as East Coast trains began evening peak services in the afternoon while others had no restrictions.

The Association of Train Operating Companies (Atoc) said most people were able to buy the right ticket and get on the right train without any problems.
Restrictions

The magazine said the East Coast train company and West Coast Main Line operator Virgin Trains began their evening peak in the mid-afternoon. In the case of East Coast, that means the evening peak period last four hours. But Chiltern Railways and Merseyrail had no specific evening peak times.

Which? said: "You'd be forgiven for not knowing if you're coming or going, yet Atoc claims 'four out of five passengers are happy with their journey'." The magazine said the fact that different tickets had different restrictions was also confusing. For example people who bought super off-peak tickets were subject to more restrictions than normal off-peak tickets.

Other restrictions vary according to destinations and the train company that is offering the service. For example, East Coast morning peak services to London end at 10.05 unless commuters have bought a first class ticket, are travelling using an off-peak day return ticket or travel card or have a super off-peak ticket. But Merseyrail and train company Northern Rail tend to have a set morning peak time - ending at 0930.

Which? also urged commuters to think carefully about where they begin their journey as that also can affect the amount they will pay for their ticket.
'Right trains'

BBC transport correspondent Richard Scott said some train companies have recently been expanding the peak times, squeezing off-peak travellers into smaller time slots. One argument is that this manages demand by encouraging people off crowded services onto less busy trains. Of course it is also a way to make more money, he said. By redesignating trains as "peak", this allows train companies to increase fares without needing permission from the regulator.

An Atoc spokesman said: "Demand differs greatly at different times in different parts of the country, so it's not surprising that peak times vary.
Millions of people travel on the railways every week and the overwhelming majority buy the right ticket and get on the right train with no problem whatsoever."

Source

Thoughts?

My inital thought was "Duh"

 

[yorkie]

Old news, not really 'news' at all. Well-documented on this forum and elsewhere.

The usual spin from ATOC

As for trains being designated as "peak" that is an oversimplification, and "East Coast trains began evening peak services in the afternoon" is an oversimplification at best and misleading at worst.

The system is a mess, but so is that article. And so is the spin from ATOC.

Shame ATOC didn't shoot themselves in the foot as much as they have done before, for example they didn't say people should go to the theatre or buy CDs instead of travelling off peak again

 

[Greenback]

The article merely regurgitates old news and arguments from both sides, and does nothing to highlight the inconsistencies in fares and ticketing beyond the most simple level. Why not highlight the inconsistencies within TOC's rather than across them?

Hmmm, 'millions of people get on trains every week and buy the right ticket for ATOC members, but not neccessarily for themselves', said a Rail UK forums spokesperson. lol!

I don't know why Which? published it, or why the BBC reported it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Old news, not really 'news' at all. Well-documented on this forum and elsewhere.

Fair enough, BBC lured me in by putting a new sign next to it on their website, teach me for trusting the media :roll:

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Peak trains should be those arriving at a list of major commuter stations/terminii from 8-10, and those departing from 4.30-6.30.

 

[MCR247]

Peak trains should be those arriving at a list of major commuter stations/terminii from 8-10, and those departing from 4.30-6.30.

I disagree, on a normal off peak return should be valid in the evening peak IMO, because the morning peak is normally over a shorter period time (7-9) than the evening as people finish work at anytime between 4 & 7.

 

[asylumxl]

I disagree, on a normal off peak return should be valid in the evening peak IMO, because the morning peak is normally over a shorter period time (7-9) than the evening as people finish work at anytime between 4 & 7.

That'd make them less money...

 

[yorkie]

Fair enough, BBC lured me in by putting a new sign next to it on their website, teach me for trusting the media :roll:

Not your fault! If I'd seen it before you, I'd have posted it too. It's the content of the article that is substandard, not the act of posting it on here!

 

[Greenback]

Quite. It's on the BBC News page as if it's soemthing new and exciting, so presumably Which? have issued a press release to boost sales of their own product!

I think it's pretty lazy journalism all round.

 

[MCR247]

Isn't that how it works now, I'm sure a NOT - STP off peak rtn has no evening peak restriction, but obv the super does

 

[me123]

I disagree, on a normal off peak return should be valid in the evening peak IMO, because the morning peak is normally over a shorter period time (7-9) than the evening as people finish work at anytime between 4 & 7.

I would agree. Evening peak restrictions are not in place in Glasgow (with the exception of Edinburgh services IIRC) and it works pretty well. No confusion, and we don't have too much of an overcrowding problem. The problem is, London does. And they really do need the evening restrictions.

But they should print it on the ticket. Eg Valid: ANYTIME; AFTER 9AM, AFTER 9:15AM, AFTER 9AM, NOT 4.30-6.30PM... surely that would fit somewhere on the ticket. Not for the examiners, but for the passengers. And they should do away with some of the utterly crazy restrictions such as...

Return Travel: By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0915.
Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at
Glasgow Queen St or Central,
Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays
-Fridays any service departing
between 1642 and 1809 nor the
1815 Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen
Street & the 1815 Glasgow
Queen Street - Edinburgh
services (except: Passengers
may join the 1756 to Glasgow
via Shotts)

Instead I would propose AFTER 09:15, NOT 16:45-18:15. You may disadvantage some passengers, but on the whole it's easier to understand by a long shot. And, if it was printed on the ticket, you would easily be able to see what is and isn't valid rather than referring to staff, station posters, books the size of the Bible...

 

[yorkie]

Isn't that how it works now, I'm sure a NOT - STP off peak rtn has no evening peak restriction, but obv the super does

Nottingham - London Terminals does have evening peak restrictions but they only apply from St Pancras.

Selected quotes from NFM06:

Restriction : 7E...

DEPART: LONDON ST PANCRAS
INTERNATIONAL
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.) and
at or after 1859.

DEPART: LONDON KING'S CROSS
(From restriction 1U)
At any time.

It's better to go via King's Cross generally. e.g. last night, we observed that the 2030 from STP got into NOT after the connection from GRA from the 2033 from KGX, and on ticket booking sites the price is considerably cheaper for the 2033. At GRA, it's simply a case of walking out one door, walking about 10 paces, and walking in another door. It couldn't be simpler and you save quite a bit of money. At peak time, you can save £50! And the trains aren't plastic rattling things!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Instead I would propose AFTER 09:15, NOT 16:45-18:15. You may disadvantage some passengers, but on the whole it's easier to understand by a long shot. And, if it was printed on the ticket, you would easily be able to see what is and isn't valid rather than referring to staff, station posters, books the size of the Bible...

But how would this work for the rtn portion of a Nottingham - London Terminals Any Permitted ticket? Unless they try to charge people doing the sensible, quicker route out of KGX on a real train an extra £50 to avoid that awful outer-suburban service out of STP I can't see how it can be done! I would oppose any fare increases in the name of 'simplification'.

 

[me123]

KGX AFTER 10:05
STP AFTER 9AM, NOT 16:30-18:58

Hmm... maybe a bit too much to put on a ticket, and probably just as confusing in this case.

OK, I'll admit that it probably won't work for London Terminals, given that there are so many possible routes out of the capital to pretty much anywhere! But it would have worked quite well in other areas. I live in the SPT area, so I'm used to a straight forward peak restrictions (Before 9am is "Peak"). And the Edinburgh one simplifies quite well (with only a few "losers" in my proposed scenario, but I think it's a worthwhile sacrifice to be honest).

I hasten to add that I generally agree with you in saying "no fare rises in the name of 'simplification'". And I agree that charging extra in cases like the Nottingham ticket would be unfair. But I think cases such as my Edinburgh one (where a handful of services are added to the peak) makes sense, as it removes the details about specific trains that make the restrictions rather complicated.

EDIT: Reading that again, you may have slightly misunderstood me. To clarify, I wasn't proposing blanket restrictions. Rather, I was proposing that the restrictions become a bit simpler in each case and are printed on the ticket somewhere for the passenger to see.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Nice to see ATOC making such a passenger friendly comment:

 

[Oliver]

Quite. It's on the BBC News page as if it's soemthing new and exciting, so presumably Which? have issued a press release to boost sales of their own product!

I think it's pretty lazy journalism all round.

Exactly; consumerism at its worst. Which? grabs some headlines, and the BBC repeats them as if they are gospel.

The purpose of off-peak fares is to sell cheaper tickets on those trains which would otherwise not be full, so any blanket times applying to all TOCs and locations would be non-optimal. The answer, therefore, is to permit TOCs to choose when off-peak fares should be valid, which triggers cries of Foul! from the media. One problem is that the rules make TOCs apply the same times for each weekday, although Friday is much busier than other days.

 

[me123]

But one of the biggest problems, to be fair, is that the restrictions are very poorly advertised. And when they are advertised, they are very complicated. Look at the ones above as examples.

London terminals; well ticket restrictions often vary depending which terminal you leave from and/or which operator you use!

And as for my Edinburgh one (Not Valid 16:42-18:09, nor on the 18:15 EDB-GLQ, nor the 18:15 GLQ-EDB, but is valid on the 17:56 EDB-GLC)... well, I don't imagine that a typical traveller would be able to remember that easily!

And there are many others that really need to be either simpler or conveyed to passengers in a better way. I appreciate the demand for different peak periods in different areas, but passengers need to know that their ticket is valid, and need to be able to travel in confidence.

 

[Zoe]

The purpose of off-peak fares is to sell cheaper tickets on those trains which would otherwise not be full, so any blanket times applying to all TOCs and locations would be non-optimal. The answer, therefore, is to permit TOCs to choose when off-peak fares should be valid, which triggers cries of Foul! from the media. One problem is that the rules make TOCs apply the same times for each weekday, although Friday is much busier than other days.

The old Super Saver didn't used to be valid on Fridays. Could this be a case for introducing Friday restrictions on the new Super Off Peak tickets? There could also be an argument for Sunday evening restrictions as on some routes this is a very busy time.

 

[mumrar]

Nothing new there but I agree with the sentiments they mention. Everytime that ATOC swear they'll do something to make ticketing easier (to understand), they generally make it harder. I believe it's being used as a stealth way to get money out of people who can't plan journeys ahead for whatever reason. Personally I feel there should be a set morning peak and evening (as in 16:30-18:00) the same everywhere, nationwide. It's confusing in the extreme for occassional travellers, particularly the vulnerable or elderly to grasp some of the harder concepts and I think something needs to be done before the system becomes so complex that it doesn't achieve a single thing. And I'm a TOC employee. Plus give PRIV discount holders reduced fare on SVR type tickets, SOR's are so ridiculously high it can be far cheaper for Joe Public to travel than staff.

That is all

 

[Matt Taylor]

I pretty much agree with you on that Mumrar. We have an increasingly impossible situation whereby ticket restrictions are becoming more and more complicated which leaves passengers more in need of knowledgable staff than ever before, yet most TOCs are on a mission to replace as many ticket savvy staff as possible with self service machines and badly trained security/barrier staff.

Customer service costs money which in the current climate is not available, but when it has gone it will be harder than ever to get it back.

And the railways do not need to be nationalised in order to standardise things like ticket types, peak restrictions and PF policies etc. Either set all the TOCs entirely free from government regulation, control and support or bring it all back under one brand name and one set of standards etc. The current halfway house is just a complete mess that doesn't please anyone.

 

[Zoe]

Either set all the TOCs entirely free from government regulation

I'm sure some TOCs would like very much to completely abolish off peak fares and only have Anytime fares available for walk-up travel. At the same time they could claim that prices have never been lower due to advance fares.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm sure some TOCs would like very much to completely abolish off peak fares and only have Anytime fares available for walk-up travel. At the same time they could claim that prices have never been lower due to advance fares.

That's exactly what all the London TOCs have done already, albeit that you can still get cheap fares if you either get an oyster card or buy a travelcard. Otherwise it is Anytime only for all journeys within Greater London.

 

[wibble]

That's exactly what all the London TOCs have done already, albeit that you can still get cheap fares if you either get an oyster card or buy a travelcard. Otherwise it is Anytime only for all journeys within Greater London.

The London TOCs didn't make that decision wholly on their own - I believe that was one of the conditions of accepting Oyster PAYG on National Rail.

 

[Aictos]

Best thing to do with the existing ticketing system is overhaul it by only sticking to the basics ie:

Monday to Friday

Anytime Tickets
Off Peak Tickets
Advance Tickets

There would be no Super Off Peak Tickets as the Off Peak and Advance tickets would be more then reasonable, some restrictions would remain on these ones these with none on the Anytime ones.

Weekend

Weekend Anytime
Weekend Saver

By making the weekend a off peak period, passengers would benefit from few to no restrictions plus would be far more simple to book a trip away at the weekend.

Of course, you would still keep Standard Class and First Class saying that, although I might upset ATOC big time I do believe it would the step in the right direction for the future of the rail industry as it just makes likfe simple.