Penalty Fare - sitting in First Class on a Standard Ticket

[applepie]

Hi all,
I was charged a penalty fare (for sitting in first class on a standard ticket) on Thursday and have since been reading up on the forum, but I don't think my exact situation has been covered. Would anyone be able to offer some advice?
On Thurs morning, my boyfriend and I travelled on the 09:06 train from Brighton to London Victoria. When we got on at Brighton the carriage we entered was full. We walked through 3 carriages and found an area of some seats empty at the back. They were identical to the normal seats with a small "first class" bib over the headrest. The service was busier than normal, with no available seats and several people were also stood in the gangway of the other carriages. There were not enough standard seats for the passengers, yet these seats (a group of 8) were left vacant.
A member of the Southern Rail staff sat opposite, asked to see our tickets, and explained we were in the first class area. We got up and he said 'sit back down'. We explained the situation, that other seats were full, and there was no difference in service in first class, he told us regardless of that, we were still due a penalty fare (£69 each - £136 total) I asked if we must pay now and was told, in a raised and intimidating voice, "Yes, cash or card. Not paying is a criminal record". I think from reading this forum (though I may have misunderstood), that I could have paid £20 each, and the majority of the payment could have been made within 21 days. Was I misinformed by the member of staff?
As a part time student and an intern (yes, here comes the sob story - sorry, I know it may not be relevant) it would have made things much easier if I could have paid only the £20 on the train, and the full penalty fare afterward.
He started writing the notices straight away, then gave it to me to sign. When I paused to read what I was to sign, he stood, tapped the paper, and raised his voice "Sign there or criminal record". I paid the full charge by debit card.
Leaving empty, identical seats as first class, while standard class paying passengers must stand, seems unfair. Of course, had we been asked, we would have stood without questioning it (and also if there had been any first class passengers). That, and the member of staff's delivery of the charge (as well as the possible misinformation) make me wonder if I can attempt to appeal?
What are my options? What course of action do you reccommend?
Many thanks,
Apple

 

[142094]

First of all having a ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat - so unless first was declassified, then you shouldn't have been there in the first place. I'll let some other users give you the details about the best course of action.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is the form you were given?

Is it an Unpaid Fares Notice? Or is it a Penalty Fare? (£69.00 is twice the full First Class single fare to your destination of Victoria; they're £34.50 each)

 

[First class]

What is the form you were given?

Is it an Unpaid Fares Notice? Or is it a Penalty Fare? (£69.00 is twice the full First Class single fare to your destination of Victoria; they're £34.50 each)

It must be a Penalty Fare. Twice the single fare, comes to £72. If it's two people then it is £144 outstanding.

I'd say you've been very lucky. Most TOCs are starting criminal proceedings for occupying seats in first class lately. The minimum you could have paid at the time was £36 each.

As others have said, a ticket does not entitle you to a seat. It permits you to get from A-B.

Recommendation: Pay the Penalty Fare, whatever is outstanding and learn from the experience. They could have prosecuted you.

 

[AlterEgo]

It must be a Penalty Fare. Twice the single fare, comes to £72. If it's two people then it is £144 outstanding.

FDS from BTN-VIC is £34.50...I think that's how it's been calculated. Making £69?

 

[First class]

FDS from BTN-VIC is £34.50...I think that's how it's been calculated. Making £69?

The Manual shows it has being £36 FDS
rte Any Permitted

SN
(S/R)
FDS S 36.00

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Unfortunately, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (which the ticket is subject to) states

....

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation
without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the
carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket
for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.

....

So you were actually caught red handed and rightly given a Penalty Fare.

I'm not an expert on Penalty fares (and am willing to be corrected), but I think failure to pay atleast the single fare at the time the Penalty Fare is given, could be grounds for prosecution, but AFAIK the RPI should have given you the choice to pay it all there and then, or pay the remainder later. Failure to pay the full amount within a given time (assuming any appeal is unsuccessful) I believe is grounds for prosecution. I'm not convinced the RPI telling you there were only two options ("pay or criminal record") is grounds for an appeal, but if you feel you were harshly treated that might be an avenue to explore.

 

[AlterEgo]

The Manual shows it has being £36 FDS
rte Any Permitted

SN
(S/R)
FDS S 36.00

How unusual.

A journey planner shows there are two fares, actually. A BTN-VIC FDS ticket is £34.50 route Any Permitted, and also a BTN-London Terminals ticket (which you've quoted) which is indeed £36.00. I suspect both will show in Avantix...

 

[oversteer]

But there was a difference in service, first class had seats available, while standard class did not ..

 

[First class]

Unfortunately, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (which the ticket is subject to) states



So you were actually caught red handed and rightly given a Penalty Fare.

I'm not an expert on Penalty fares (and am willing to be corrected), but I think failure to pay atleast the single fare at the time the Penalty Fare is given, could be grounds for prosecution, but AFAIK the RPI should have given you the choice to pay it all there and then, or pay the remainder later. Failure to pay the full amount within a given time (assuming any appeal is unsuccessful) I believe is grounds for prosecution. I'm not convinced the RPI telling you there were only two options ("pay or criminal record") is grounds for an appeal, but if you feel you were harshly treated that might be an avenue to explore.

The OP will have signed a PF that states on it that only the single fare was payable.

 

[LexyBoy]

Minimum to be paid on the spot would be £34.50.

It's worth a go appealing on the grounds of the aggressive approach the RPI had (by your account) and the incorrect statement that the full amount must be paid. It's definitely the safest bet to pay the PF and then appeal however.

The Manual shows it has being £36 FDS
rte Any Permitted

SN
(S/R)
FDS S 36.00

£34.50 is to London Victoria
£36.00 is to London Terminals

I think.

 

[applepie]

Thank you all for your help so far.

First of all having a ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat - so unless first was declassified, then you shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I realise now, but it does seem a little pedantic to deal with it so severely.

if you feel you were harshly treated that might be an avenue to explore

I do. Would the member of staff have an option to ask us to move, first? Refusing would, of course, rightly have justified the penalty fare.

(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used

This seems like a much more proportional fare to the offense committed. £136 does seem very high in comparison to the first class fare of £34.50.

(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.

What is condition 4, please?

 

[142094]

But there was a difference in service, first class had seats available, while standard class did not ..

Not sure what you are referring to here, best to quote whichever line of the first post you are referring to, makes things clearer.

 

[richa2002]

I do. Would the member of staff have an option to ask us to move, first? Refusing would, of course, rightly have justified the penalty fare.

I agree the fella's attitude doesn't exactly sound professional but if ticket inspectors only ever asked people to move without any penalty then where's the deterrant for sitting in first class without the correct ticket?

 

[swt_passenger]

This seems like a much more proportional fare to the offense committed. £136 does seem very high in comparison to the first class fare of £34.50.

£136 (possibly £138?) is for two separate fares though - so it is bound to be high in comparison, ie 4 times the normal fare.

The individual penalty fare was £69...

[These sort of threads often get confused when someone reports about a couple of people travelling together...]

 

[Paul Kelly]

Penalty fare is £20 or twice the anytime single fare, whichever is the greater. The actual fare due must be paid at the time; the remainder of the penalty must be paid later. Anytime single first class from Brighton to London Victoria is £34.50; therefore the penalty fare was £69 and as Lexyboy said you were only required to pay the £34.50 up front.

Sounds harsh again I know but you're lucky to have only been charged a penalty fare; penalty fares are issued to people who make honest mistakes and should involve no accusation of fare evasion. If the inspector had believed you were intending to avoid paying the first class fare he could have reported you for prosecution which could lead to a possible criminal record.

"Only" having to pay a penalty fare is a many times more favourable outcome. I fear you may just have to put it down as a lesson well-learnt...

 

[applepie]

(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used
This seems like a much more proportional fare to the offense committed. £136 does seem very high in comparison to the first class fare of £34.50.

The individual penalty fare was £69...

[These sort of threads often get confused when someone reports about a couple of people travelling together...]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My question was, what was the reason for being charged the penalty fare? If I were allowed to pay the difference, between the standard and first class (x2 for both of us), instead of the penalty fare, it would have been much less than £136.

 

[AlterEgo]

I realise now, but it does seem a little pedantic to deal with it so severely.

I do. Would the member of staff have an option to ask us to move, first? Refusing would, of course, rightly have justified the penalty fare.

I'm afraid people do pay a premium for First Class travel and having standard class ticket holders occupy those seats until they're asked to move just isn't on. I'm sure you can see that?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My question was, what was the reason for being charged the penalty fare? If I were allowed to pay the difference, between the standard and first class (x2 for both of us), instead of the penalty fare, it would have been much less than £136.

A lot of these trains don't normally have any staff on board selling tickets, so you often wouldn't be able to do that. You could have excessed your ticket to first class (by paying the difference) at the station before boarding. I believe, that the penalty fare system is supposed to be a deterrent/motivation to encourage people to buy the ticket they need before boarding the train - the idea being to prevent lost revenue from trains that don't have guards or revenue inspectors on-board.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My question was, what was the reason for being charged the penalty fare? If I were allowed to pay the difference, between the standard and first class (x2 for both of us), instead of the penalty fare, it would have been much less than £136.

There's no deterrent otherwise.

 

[applepie]

There's no deterrent otherwise.

But that option is offered in the terms hairyhandedfool quotes,

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation
without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the
carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket
for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.

I'm not asking why the condition is there, but why it wasn't offered to me?

As a general consensus, is an appeal possible in this case? Having already paid the PF, I can't lose anything by appealing, can I? It won't be escalated at all?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I do. Would the member of staff have an option to ask us to move, first? Refusing would, of course, rightly have justified the penalty fare.....

Well, yes and no. They could possibly give you a Penalty Fare to the next stop and provided you were not travelling on an advance ticket (or any other ticket that prohibits break of journey) you could perhaps move into standard class at that point, but there maybe something in the particular Penalty Fare scheme that prevents that being offered.

....What is condition 4, please?

You can get a copy of the NRCoC in .pdf format from the National Rail Enquiries website, Condition 4 reads as follows:

....

4. Penalty Fares

Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:

(a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10,
11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply; or
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to
Travel

Warning notices are displayed at stations where Penalty Fares are charged. You will not
have to pay the full single fare or full return fare under Condition 2 if a Penalty Fare is
charged. A Train Company which operates a Penalty Fares scheme will send you a copy of
the rules about Penalty Fares and a summary of their scheme if you ask.

....

 

[AlterEgo]

Having already paid the PF, I can't lose anything by appealing, can I? It won't be escalated at all?

I'm afraid I can see no reason why the appeal would be successful. You were Penalty Fared correctly, and paid it. You could say that the RPI told you you had to pay in full on the spot (which is strictly incorrect), but in any case you'd still have had to pay the rest anyway. It would also be your word against the train company's.

 

[jon0844]

I don't see a problem here. The OP has admitted there were no seats in standard and seats in first, which is precisely why people might opt to pay extra for first.

Now, I do accept that first class on many commuter trains doesn't really look much different or offer anything besides the odd free cup of tea or coffee perhaps (if there's a trolley service), but the OP has ignored the obvious, even after mentioning it - namely the increased chance of a seat.

The OP was caught, dealt with and life goes on. Seems like a perfectly good result, or is if the OP won't make the same mistake again. (And for the benefit of the OP, I don't work in the industry - I'm a normal passenger).

 

[swt_passenger]

But that option is offered in the terms hairyhandedfool quotes,

I'm not asking why the condition is there, but why it wasn't offered to me?

Because the option isn't yours, it is theirs. The option is for the railway to charge you the first class fare, OR if in a penalty fares area, charge you a penalty fare.

 

[amcluesent]

Aye, lets say everyone siddles into FC and sits down when Std is full.

If a pax who has paid the whacking FC fare get on, are they expected to challenge the peeps already sitting there, or remain standing or wave their FC ticket in the hope a standard fare payer gives up their seat or what?

 

[reb0118]

But that option is offered in the terms hairyhandedfool quotes,


I'm not asking why the condition is there, but why it wasn't offered to me?

As a general consensus, is an appeal possible in this case? Having already paid the PF, I can't lose anything by appealing, can I? It won't be escalated at all?

I am a guard and my company does not operate penalty fares. In your situation on my train, if I had not declassified 1st class due to overcrowding or given you express permission to sit in 1st, then you would have had the opportunity to upgrade taking into consideration the fare you had already paid. i.e. pay the difference in fares. All trains that my company operates that have 1st class are run with a guard and this option is available to all. (OK I know it's the railway and there are technical exceptions for the pedants but let's keep it simple)

In your case I believe you travelled on a DOO service. i.e. Driver only - no guard. Most DOO services do not have regular ticket issuing/checking staff on board but operate in the main a zero tolerance blitz technique where groups of RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) target specific trains at random - any infractions to the rules are dealt with harshly usually with Penalty Fares for mistakes or genuine errors or reporting for prosecution for deliberate fare evasions.

I think because your train was DOO and covered by the penalty fares regulations that is why you were not offered the option to pay the excess fare. Where you harshly treated? Yes in my view. Where you fairly treated? Also yes in my view as all the information you required was available prior to you starting your journey - sentiment unfortunately plays no part in the law.

As you have paid the full amount owing as far as the Railway is concerned the matter is closed. You will not be required to pay more - so by all accounts feel free to appeal as it is your right (good luck by the way). Also write to the customer relations of the railway company concerned as they may be more sympathetic than the appeals process. I would not hold out much hope but if you don't ask you don't get.

Good luck again.

 

[jkdd77]

It may be worth reading this thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59095
these regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/576/regulation/5/made
and these rules:
https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA Penalty Fare Rules 2002.pdf

I guess that the most likely grounds of appeal are:
1) The amount charged may not necessarily have been in compliance with Regulation 5(2) of the Penalty Fare Regulations (if applicable) since the amount charged should have been a PF to the next stop (if not Victoria) and a full First single for the remainder of the jouney.

If the next stop at the time of being PF'd was Victoria anyway, then the above is not applicable.

2) The inspector did not comply with Rule 8.2 of the Penalty Fares Rules:
"The authorised collector may require that person to make a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare...(snip)...that person must be given 21 days to pay the rest of the Penalty Fare..."

The OP could add that he was both intimidated and disadvantaged by being wrongly forced to make full payment immediately.

3) (If applicable) the notice did not comply with Rule 8.3 of the Penalty Fares Rules (as per Bobzilla's post on the linked thread):

 

[MikeWh]

Echoing the sentiments of others, you have unquestionably been treated fairly and correctly in all cases apart from the inspector/guard insisting that you pay the whole amount on the spot. Regretably, this is something that I hear all too often down here. You are, of course, welcome to appeal to the penalty fares board; but in all honesty I don't hold out much hope of success. However, I feel that a different approach might have some merit.

I would write to Southern Customer Services and complain about the staff member issuing the penalty fare. First, however, I would acknowledge that I was wrong and apologise for sitting in first without a valid ticket; and assure them that I have learned my lesson. Then you can explain how as a student it is difficult to find large sums of money unexpectedly. On researching the subject later you find that actually only half the fare (the actual fare due) had to be paid up front and that this would have been considerably easier to manage. Then ask whether as a goodwill gesture they would consider compensating you, say £20, in lieu of additional expenses (intersest, charges etc) incurred through having to find the money in one go. I would also ask them to give you a date by which they will complete retraining of all their revenue inspectors to remind them that the penalty fare scheme rules say that only the actual fare due is required to be paid immediately. This ought to give them the hint that you will take the matter further if they don't agree. I'm not sure whether you should suggest reporting them to the DfT at this stage, but that is certainly an avenue open to you.

When you have written your letter, feel free to PM* it to me and there are some of us who will assist in helping your letter have the best chance of success. There are no guarantees though. I do think accepting your guilt and apologising is very important though, because that demonstrates that you are not contesting the penalty, just the manner in which it was demanded.


* You can send PMs (Private messages) once you have made 5 posts on the forum.

 

[island]

The only thing I am wondering is whether they sat down and were immediately PFd by an RPI sitting there before them, or whether the RPI showed up en route. If the former, it seems a little harsh to PF instead of saying "do you have a 1st class ticket" and asking them to move on as they may have made an error.

Actually, jkdd77 makes a good point. If Victoria wasn't the next stop then the amount of the PF was wrong.