Penalty fare

[Raiser21]

Hi, me and my partner have been issued a penalty fare for not showing a ticket, £100 each plus fare. Basically we didn't have time to purchase a ticket, I'd brought the wrong bank card and only had cash, tried to purchase a ticket in Walsall but wasn't allowed as the inspector wouldnt allow it. I have appealed both but also paid. If found unsuccessful with appeals, will that be the end of it?

 

[Tevion539]

It would be useful to include where you were travelling to/from, the company involved and a (personal info redacted) copy of any paperwork issued.

I don’t believe there is a way out of this, unless there is an issue with the paperwork.

 

[Raiser21]

We were travelling from Cannock to Walsall. I know the appeal will be unsuccessful and I have paid both penalties but I've now read that operators can prosecute if appeals are unsuccessful so I was wondering that even though I have paid the penalty can they still prosecute if the appeal is unsuccessful.

 

[gray1404]

Have I understood you correctly. You stared your journey at Cannock and only had cash to pay for the ticket?

If this is correct then does Cannock have a ticket office that was open? If not, does the ticket machine at Cannock accept cash?

If not then you were entitled to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, which was at Walsall and the penalty fare was therefore incorrectly issued and you should appeal.

In the meantime if you could upload (as previously requested) a full copy of both of the penalty fare notices (with personal details retracted) and copies of both of the appeals you submitted that would be helpful.

 

[Raiser21]

Cannock has a ticket machine but it's card only. Walsall have an office which is where we were trying to purchase one from as we needed a return ticket anyway. I can't view the appeal but I basically stated what I've put on here. I've attached a copy of one of the penalty notices.

 

[mikeg]

I suspect the OP should double check that there's definitely no ticket machine that accepts cash at Cannock. As if this is the case and not being able to pay by card, the OP could legitimately pay cash at the destination or interchange, or on the train (whichever opportunity came first). That assumes the TVM at Cannock doesn't do promise to pay and there's no permit to travel facilities. In that case, an appeal should be successful.

 

[jfollows]

Yes, if the following applies then there is a reason to appeal: (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf)

You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or ....

 

[Raiser21]

I have appealed and I have also paid. I just want to know if the appeal is unsuccessful will it be the end of it as I've paid the penalty? I'm not really bothered if I win the appeal or not I just want to know that I won't be taken to court over a train ticket.

 

[MotCO]

We were travelling from Cannock to Walsall. I know the appeal will be unsuccessful and I have paid both penalties but I've now read that operators can prosecute if appeals are unsuccessful so I was wondering that even though I have paid the penalty can they still prosecute if the appeal is unsuccessful.

If you have paid the Penalty Fare, then that should be the end of it - you should not be Penalty Charged (and paid) and prosecuted. The new 'ruling' is that unsuccessful appeals can now lead to prosecution - previously, the act of appealing barred any prosecution.

However, as others have said, if you could only pay by cash at Cannock, then the Penalty Fare was issued in error if there were no facilities available to buy tickets with cash at Cannock. The difficulty is now persuading the Train Operating Company to cancel it. Your fare would still be payable, though.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have appealed and I have also paid. I just want to know if the appeal is unsuccessful will it be the end of it as I've paid the penalty? I'm not really bothered if I win the appeal or not I just want to know that I won't be taken to court over a train ticket.

While our understanding of what the law around this has recently changed (there's a couple of quite lengthy threads on the forum about this if you want to look it up), in practice I would not expect you to face prosecution. If your appeal is successful, then that means that the railway agree that you have done nothing wrong, so they would have nothing to prosecute you for: if your appeal is not successful, then you have paid the penalty fare anyhow and as long as the railway don't find that you have fare dodged before, they will not want the cost and hassle of taking you to court when you have already faced a penalty.

 

[Raiser21]

Thank you everyone. I rarely use trains and have never had a penalty before hence the confusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2025 ==

While our understanding of what the law around this has recently changed (there's a couple of quite lengthy threads on the forum about this if you want to look it up), in practice I would not expect you to face prosecution. If your appeal is successful, then that means that the railway agree that you have done nothing wrong, so they would have nothing to prosecute you for: if your appeal is not successful, then you have paid the penalty fare anyhow and as long as the railway don't find that you have fare dodged before, they will not want the cost and hassle of taking you to court when you have already faced a penalty.

Thank you, I was worried cause I'd read on here that they can still prosecute if appeal is unsuccessful and penalty has been paid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2025 ==

If you have paid the Penalty Fare, then that should be the end of it - you should not be Penalty Charged (and paid) and prosecuted. The new 'ruling' is that unsuccessful appeals can now lead to prosecution - previously, the act of appealing barred any prosecution.

However, as others have said, if you could only pay by cash at Cannock, then the Penalty Fare was issued in error if there were no facilities available to buy tickets with cash at Cannock. The difficulty is now persuading the Train Operating Company to cancel it. Your fare would still be payable, though.

Does the new ruling me even thought it's been paid I can still be prosecuted or just if it hasn't been paid?

 

[Watershed]

Thank you, I was worried cause I'd read on here that they can still prosecute if appeal is unsuccessful and penalty has been paid.

The Chief Magistrate's decision seems to suggest that the 'bar' on prosecutions only applies for a short period whilst the Penalty Fare appeal is actually being decided, and not after that - whether the appeal is successful or not, and whether the Penalty Fare is paid or not.

However, many legally qualified people are doubtful of just how legally sound that decision is - and it is not binding, so it would be open to challenge if you were to find yourself in that position. In practical terms, the train company will not be interested in prosecuting you over this incident, since you have paid the Penalty Fare.

If you had shown an eTicket that was somehow invalid, e.g. you applied a Railcard discount but couldn't show a valid Railcard, then it's possible the train company would contact the retailer to ask for a list of your previous purchases. They might then go through those with a fine-toothed comb to see whether they were legitimate (e.g. if you had previous Railcard-discounted tickets, they might ask you for proof of holding a past Railcard). But that was not the case here, and in any event it would not directly relate to the journey which led to the Penalty Fare - that particular journey is closed as far as they are concerned.

 

[Raiser21]

The Chief Magistrate's decision seems to suggest that the 'bar' on prosecutions only applies for a short period whilst the Penalty Fare appeal is actually being decided, and not after that - whether the appeal is successful or not, and whether the Penalty Fare is paid or not.

However, many legally qualified people are doubtful of just how legally sound that decision is - and it is not binding, so it would be open to challenge if you were to find yourself in that position. In practical terms, the train company will not be interested in prosecuting you over this incident, since you have paid the Penalty Fare.

If you had shown an eTicket that was somehow invalid, e.g. you applied a Railcard discount but couldn't show a valid Railcard, then it's possible the train company would contact the retailer to ask for a list of your previous purchases. They might then go through those with a fine-toothed comb to see whether they were legitimate (e.g. if you had previous Railcard-discounted tickets, they might ask you for proof of holding a past Railcard). But that was not the case here, and in any event it would not directly relate to the journey which led to the Penalty Fare - that particular journey is closed as far as they are concerned.

Ah fantastic thank you, that's put my mind at rest.

 

[MotCO]

Does the new ruling me even thought it's been paid I can still be prosecuted or just if it hasn't been paid?

Although it has yet to be tested, I can see no reason to prosecute if the Penalty Fare had been paid. It would be a case of 'having your cake and eat it'.

 

[WesternLancer]

If the Appeal fails and there were good grounds to Appeal the OP should head back here on how to strengthen their appeal wording for a stage 2 appeal - AIUI if the appeal is successful the sum paid would be refunded as it sounds like the OP has paid it.

 

[gray1404]

It would be helpful if you could please upload the complete copies of both of the notices. Not just part of one of the the notices. Please understand we are trying to help you here.

 

[Raiser21]

It would be helpful if you could please upload the complete copies of both of the notices. Not just part of one of the the notices. Please understand we are trying to help you here.

Hi, I only wanted to know if I could get prosecuted for an unsuccessful appeal even if I had paid the penalty and it's been answered. Thank you.

 

[gray1404]

Hi, I only wanted to know if I could get prosecuted for an unsuccessful appeal even if I had paid the penalty and it's been answered. Thank you.

Ok, So you don't want further advice on why the penalty fare maybe invalid or advice on wording a further appeal in the best possible way to ensure success?

 

[Raiser21]

Ok, So you don't want further advice on why the penalty fare maybe invalid or advice on wording a further appeal in the best possible way to ensure success?

No thank you, to be honest I've paid both penalties and I'm okay if I don't win the appeals I just want it to be over, I'm a foster carer so this is the last thing I need/want.

 

[WesternLancer]

No thank you, to be honest I've paid both penalties and I'm okay if I don't win the appeals I just want it to be over, I'm a foster carer so this is the last thing I need/want.

I’m not saying you have done so but if you have other fare’errors’ that West Midlands trains might find on your name they may contact you separately.

West Midlands trains are very active at doing data trawling to find things they are suspicious of and sending emails out in accusing tones.

If you get anything like that head here before sending any sort of reply to it to get advice on your options.

You can easily find other threads with examples.

 

[Raiser21]

I’m not saying you have done so but if you have other fare’errors’ that West Midlands trains might find on your name they may contact you separately.

West Midlands trains are very active at doing data trawling to find things they are suspicious of and sending emails out in accusing tones.

If you get anything like that head here before sending any sort of reply to it to get advice on your options.

You can easily find other threads with examples.

Thank you for your help, I very rarely use trains and when I do its for long distances/holidays etc so tickets are purchased well in advance, today I was literally popping into Walsall and the bus was delayed so I thought I'd use the train instead. Never again though!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your help, I very rarely use trains and when I do its for long distances/holidays etc so tickets are purchased well in advance, today I was literally popping into Walsall and the bus was delayed so I thought I'd use the train instead. Never again though!

You’ll be fine then.

 

[MotCO]

I was literally popping into Walsall and the bus was delayed so I thought I'd use the train instead. Never again though!

Another potential train passenger lost. Will they never learn?

 

[gray1404]

Having thought about this case again, I can see that the original poster may have been very upset yesterday. I would have been had I been wrongly issued with a penalty fare. They arrived at the station and in good faith wanted to purchase a ticket with cash. Something they are quite entitled to do.

The ticket machine only accepts cards so they do the right thing and offer to pay with cash, an accepted method of payment, at the first opportunity. In this case that was at their destination station. They are then wrongly issued with a penalty fare.

They are a Foster Carer, which is a very commendable role and one that uses the a lot of time and energy. This is therefore the last thing they want to have to deal with. Although they have appealed it is important to remember that we see a lot of valid appeals wrongly rejected at the first and second stages. It is often only at the final appeal (which is the third appeal) when we see the appeal upheld even though the same arguement has been repeated throughout. It is only at the third stage when an appeal is looked at by an independent panel.

A penalty fare appeal can only succeed if the penalty fare has not been issued in accordance with the regulations and it is important to word and appeal in such a way. In this case the penalty fare is invalid as it was not issued in accordance with the regulations. This is because they had not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket. The ticket machine did not accept their chosen payment method.

I do sincerely hope that the original poster has their appeal upheld and they do indeed submit a second and third appeal if needed. It is simply wrong the penalty fare system was abused and they were treated in this way.

 

[Raiser21]

Having thought about this case again, I can see that the original poster may have been very upset yesterday. I would have been had I been wrongly issued with a penalty fare. They arrived at the station and in good faith wanted to purchase a ticket with cash. Something they are quite entitled to do.

The ticket machine only accepts cards so they do the right thing and offer to pay with cash, an accepted method of payment, at the first opportunity. In this case that was at their destination station. They are then wrongly issued with a penalty fare.

They are a Foster Carer, which is a very commendable role and one that uses the a lot of time and energy. This is therefore the last thing they want to have to deal with. Although they have appealed it is important to remember that we see a lot of valid appeals between wrongly rejected at the first and second stages. It is often only at the third and final appeal when we see the appeal upheld even though the same arguement has been repeated throughout. It is only at the third stage when an appeal is looked at by an independent panel.

A penalty fare appeal can only succeed if the penalty fare has not been issued in accordance with the regulations and it is important to word and appeal in such a way. In this case the penalty fare is invalid as it was not issued in accordance with the regulations. This is because they had not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket. The ticket machine did not accept their chosen payment method.

I do sincerely hope that the original poster has their appeal upheld and they might submit a second and third appeal if needed. It is simply wrong the penalty fare system was abused and they were treated in this way.

Thank you. The frustrating thing was there was around 20 people that received a penalty fare at the same time as me and my partner, a few were even nurses. The inspectors didn't listen to anyone and straight away said 'we're not interested, you've broken the law' they were definitely on a power trip!

 

[KirkstallOne]

Thank you. The frustrating thing was there was around 20 people that received a penalty fare at the same time as me and my partner, a few were even nurses. The inspectors didn't listen to anyone and straight away said 'we're not interested, you've broken the law' they were definitely on a power trip!

Thanks for sharing your experience. As you have seem from other threads some members of the forum are very concerned about how penalty fares are issued, appealed and prosecuted. Do keep us posted on how your appeal progresses, as mentioned it is often on the third stage that someone actually looks at the argument presented.

 

[SuspectUsual]

They are a Foster Carer, which is a very commendable role and one that uses the a lot of time and energy. This is therefore the last thing they want to have to deal with

The frustrating thing was there was around 20 people that received a penalty fare at the same time as me and my partner, a few were even nurses. The inspectors didn't listen to anyone and straight away said 'we're not interested, you've broken the law' they were definitely on a power trip!

It looks like the PF was issued incorrectly and a stage 3 appeal where they’re dealt with (more) properly ought to succeed.

But I would stick to the key fact - wanted to pay with cash, no means to do so at Cannock. (I’m 99% sure there isn’t a ticket office there)

The points above are irrelevant - a person’s job should make no difference. Indeed, the fact that others got PFs at the same time suggests the inspector is at least consistent, albeit consistently wrong!

 

[gray1404]

It looks like the PF was issued incorrectly and a stage 3 appeal where they’re dealt with (more) properly ought to succeed.

But I would stick to the key fact - wanted to pay with cash, no means to do so at Cannock. (I’m 99% sure there isn’t a ticket office there)

The points above are irrelevant - a person’s job should make no difference. Indeed, the fact that others got PFs at the same time suggests the inspector is at least consistent, albeit consistently wrong!

There is indeed no ticket office at Cannock.

I agree they should stick to the key fact that they wanted to pay cash.

I agree that a person's job does not have a bearing on a penalty fare being issued however the point I was making is that the original poster has a demanding job and this is the last thing they need to have to deal with.

 

[Haywain]

I agree that a person's job does not have a bearing on a penalty fare being issued however the point I was making is that the original poster has a demanding job and this is the last thing they need to have to deal with

But lots of people have demanding jobs, so it is of no relevance at all.

 

[KirkstallOne]

The Train Companies certainly don’t care that they waste a huge amount of passengers time, why would they, they don’t bear any of the cost. A classic moral hazard. I agree that they treat everyone equally in that respect!