Pendolinos and awful phone signal

[miami]

When I travel into Manchester, from Nantwich, I usually get the lovely ATW trains from Hereford or HOWL direct to Piccadilly.

This line allows me to stream radio 4 for the whole trip, and get decent internet connectivity, via my vodafone mobile phone. Coverage at Picadilly is equally brilliant.

Yesterday however I missed the xx:30 from Picadilly, and had to take the xx:55 to Crewe. Coverage was terrible, I apparently had a full 3g signal, but data was terrible.

64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=95 ttl=52 time=14875.364 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=96 ttl=52 time=14309.967 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=97 ttl=52 time=14049.987 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=98 ttl=52 time=14867.499 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=99 ttl=52 time=14639.206 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=100 ttl=52 time=13657.443 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=101 ttl=52 time=13937.134 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=102 ttl=52 time=13431.986 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=103 ttl=52 time=12569.701 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=104 ttl=52 time=11621.189 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=105 ttl=52 time=10800.312 ms

This matches experience on the WCML, where both LM 350s and Voyagers are far better than pendilinos.

These trains used to mention some sort of 'enahanced mobile reception' on board. If that's still going I'm guessing it massively limits data traffic? Is this just simply another design flaw in the pendilino's passenger compartment (in addition to the stinking toilets, the at-seat headphones, the lack of luggage space, the lack of power at airline seats, the lack of legroom), or is it something more sinister - a way to get you to spend money on their wifi for example?

Happy to say that I'm on a voyager to London today and getting a very reasonable signal (to do with legroom and at seat power).

 

[Altfish]

I'm very happy with poor mobile reception, it should be encouraged. Sitting on a train for two hours listening to half of other peoples' conversations is awful.

There should be 90% quiet coaches and 10% mobile/iPod user coach.

Humbug, humbug

 

[miami]

The voice signal was fine, it was data that wasn't. As it happens I gave up attempting to talk to someone via irc due to frequent disconnects, and instead phoned them up for a few minutes.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm very happy with poor mobile reception, it should be encouraged. Sitting on a train for two hours listening to half of other peoples' conversations is awful.

There should be 90% quiet coaches and 10% mobile/iPod user coach.

Humbug, humbug

Never thought quiet coaches much use. I was once sat on a pendo listening to repeated loud calls from a woman in the quiet coach when the gripper came through.

Good, I thought now we will have some peace! No chance. She imperiously waved the gripper away, and he meekly stood back until she had finished her call! Then he checked her ticket and walked on.

 

[All Line Rover]

The quiet carriage on Pendolinos is, on the whole, considerably quieter than the average standard class carriage and a valuable feature, though I find it is less well respected on trains which are popular with leisure travellers.

 

[Llanigraham]

Oh dear, what a shame!
Sorry but this is a pointless complaint.

 

[miami]

Oh dear, what a shame!
Sorry but this is a pointless complaint.

If it's a retransmitter then it may be possible to avoid connecting to their base station and instead force connection to weaker ones, or indeed choose a SIM card that doesn't "benefit". Before I gather the required equipment for that though it would be good to know if that is indeed the case, and if there's something to do with these awful trains that would prevent it anyway (attenuation at certain frequencies)

If you have no idea about rolling stock engineering feel free to ignore the post.

 

[jon0844]

The voice signal was fine, it was data that wasn't. As it happens I gave up attempting to talk to someone via irc due to frequent disconnects, and instead phoned them up for a few minutes.

3G is pretty bad at the best of times. The quicker the 3G spectrum is refarmed for 4G, the better (as is happening on Vodafone and soon EE and Three, plus I assume O2). Congestion leads to something called cell breathing, which reduces the footprint of coverage. 2G and 4G don't do this.

4G is better even with a low signal, and when run at 800MHz can travel a lot further and probably even work better through train windows with solar reflective film. Vodafone and O2 have to limit 800MHz power for now, but EE and Three has no such restrictions... but annoyingly, Three still favours 3G over 4G at 800MHz so you'll cling on to mostly unusable 3G (for data) instead of 4G.

When that changes, and when EE has more 800MHz sites that can be at full power, and help get it to 95% geographic coverage by 2020, hopefully the problems will disappear.

You will need a phone on Three or EE that supports VoLTE to get the benefit of this enhanced coverage.

 

[edwin_m]

This matches experience on the WCML, where both LM 350s and Voyagers are far better than pendilinos.
...
Happy to say that I'm on a voyager to London today and getting a very reasonable signal (to do with legroom and at seat power).

Interesting that I find certain parts of the Midland Main Line I can get 4G when travelling on an HST but only 3G on a 222. I've found Voyagers bad for mobile reception in the past - I'm guessing something to do with the shiny film on the windows - but perhaps they have had boosters fitted and 222s haven't.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm very happy with poor mobile reception, it should be encouraged. Sitting on a train for two hours listening to half of other peoples' conversations is awful.

There should be 90% quiet coaches and 10% mobile/iPod user coach.

Humbug, humbug

I couldn't agree more (but it would not be enforced). How did people manage their lives before mobiles? I have one, but use it as I would have used a land line - at the right time and in the right place. When listening to music or radio on earphones I am diligent in making sure it cannot be heard by anyone else.

The trouble is that an amazing number of people seem to lack any sort of social awareness and are oblivious to other people in public. I estimate that at least 50% of the people I walk by in London are looking at their phones, rather than where they are going. It's amazing that there aren't more accidents.

 

[Deepgreen]

If it's a retransmitter then it may be possible to avoid connecting to their base station and instead force connection to weaker ones, or indeed choose a SIM card that doesn't "benefit". Before I gather the required equipment for that though it would be good to know if that is indeed the case, and if there's something to do with these awful trains that would prevent it anyway (attenuation at certain frequencies)

If you have no idea about rolling stock engineering feel free to ignore the post.

I think the point was that the 'problem' of poor reception is not one that many of us recognise as it helps to prevent at least some of the annoying but oh-so-vital ramblings of others that we have to put up with on trains!

 

[Clip]

I couldn't agree more (but it would not be enforced). How did people manage their lives before mobiles? I have one, but use it as I would have used a land line - at the right time and in the right place. When listening to music or radio on earphones I am diligent in making sure it cannot be heard by anyone else.

The trouble is that an amazing number of people seem to lack any sort of social awareness and are oblivious to other people in public. I estimate that at least 50% of the people I walk by in London are looking at their phones, rather than where they are going. It's amazing that there aren't more accidents.

Maybe these 50% of the population who you see in London have developed a far better sense of spacial awareness and as such that is why there are not more accidents?

How did people manage their lives before mobiles?

They probably didnt keep in touch with people as often I wouldve thought would be the answer to the question.

I mean lets face it, just because YOU dont see why people should use their mobiles so much doesnt mean that everyone has to follow your way of thinking and maybe you should just let people get on with living their lives how they see fit and not how you think they should?

 

[Greybeard33]

3G is pretty bad at the best of times. The quicker the 3G spectrum is refarmed for 4G, the better (as is happening on Vodafone and soon EE and Three, plus I assume O2). Congestion leads to something called cell breathing, which reduces the footprint of coverage. 2G and 4G don't do this.

4G is better even with a low signal, and when run at 800MHz can travel a lot further and probably even work better through train windows with solar reflective film. Vodafone and O2 have to limit 800MHz power for now, but EE and Three has no such restrictions... but annoyingly, Three still favours 3G over 4G at 800MHz so you'll cling on to mostly unusable 3G (for data) instead of 4G.

When that changes, and when EE has more 800MHz sites that can be at full power, and help get it to 95% geographic coverage by 2020, hopefully the problems will disappear.

You will need a phone on Three or EE that supports VoLTE to get the benefit of this enhanced coverage.

When I was on the O2 3G network I used to find that coverage was atrocious in both Pendolinos and Voyagers. Not even a voice signal much of the time, and data was virtually unusable even when a good 3G signal was indicated.

I have not been on a Pendolino since switching to EE 4G, but this week I had a good enough signal for web browsing (varying between 4G and 3G) during most of a trip from Stockport to Bristol Parkway and back, on three different XC Voyagers - including Birmingham to Stockport in an aisle seat.

 

[Skie]

Poor reception also means your phone battery will drain much faster. Plus for the working crowd it generally leads to frustration when your laptop continuously loses it's connection during the journey.

 

[NickBucks]

I'm very happy with poor mobile reception, it should be encouraged. Sitting on a train for two hours listening to half of other peoples' conversations is awful.

There should be 90% quiet coaches and 10% mobile/iPod user coach.

Humbug, humbug

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I'm lead to believe the tinting on the windows on the pendolinos and voyagers reflect some of the signal making it a generally poor experience which is why they needed to enhance it in the first place.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm lead to believe the tinting on the windows on the pendolinos and voyagers reflect some of the signal making it a generally poor experience which is why they needed to enhance it in the first place.

It also affects receipt of GPS signals inside these trains. Unless you are standing next to a door, I find it almost impossible to get a GPS in any of the Voyager / Meridian family (220/221/222).

I can usually get a reduced GPS signal inside 390s, provided I am close to a window. The GPS signal is also weakened (but normally useable) inside trains such as 185s or 350s.

 

[gsnedders]

Poor reception also means your phone battery will drain much faster. Plus for the working crowd it generally leads to frustration when your laptop continuously loses it's connection during the journey.

And for many of us, the ability to get internet on-board is a major part of the advantage of a plane.

 

[jon0844]

And for many of us, the ability to get internet on-board is a major part of the advantage of a plane.

Indeed. Most airlines are introducing Wi-Fi on planes, as people want something to do when up in the air. In Flight Entertainment systems are being removed so people can use their own devices, with the ability to stream content locally (so as not to need to stream via satellite). A bit like what some train companies are now doing.

 

[sk688]

This matches experience on the WCML, where both LM 350s and Voyagers are far better than pendilinos.

Cant speak for Voyagers as havent been one , but when in a LM 350 , usually for me (3) phone signal is awful ! Its also pretty bad on the Bakerloo and LO trains that run alongisde , although curiously Southern's 377 dont seem to suffer this .

Or is it just that Euston - Watford has terrible signal

 

[Timrud]

HST I can get good signal from Sheffield to London, Class 222 I hardly get any.

 

[causton]

350s have a few blackspots between Watford and Milton Keynes (my most frequent journeys are along this stretch) and 390s you can forget it, but the Southern 377s don't drop out as badly around Apsley and Tring whereas on a 350 it is almost impossible to get any signal from Watford Tunnels to Hemel and from Tring halfway to Cheddington!

 

[xc170]

Something to remember is the 390s were designed around 2000, so 17 years ago, just before phones with internet started to take off, so I doubt 3G reception was much of a consideration at the design stage...

 

[AlterEgo]

350s have a few blackspots between Watford and Milton Keynes (my most frequent journeys are along this stretch) and 390s you can forget it, but the Southern 377s don't drop out as badly around Apsley and Tring whereas on a 350 it is almost impossible to get any signal from Watford Tunnels to Hemel and from Tring halfway to Cheddington!

Tring Cutting is a notorious black spot anyway; nothing to do with the rolling stock!

 

[miami]

I think the point was that the 'problem' of poor reception is not one that many of us recognise as it helps to prevent at least some of the annoying but oh-so-vital ramblings of others that we have to put up with on trains!

Poor IP reception led to me making a phone call I wouldn't normally have done, so in this case you lose. (Not that you'd have noticed my call in between in inane twitterings of the two people behind me)

Something to remember is the 390s were designed around 2000, so 17 years ago, just before phones with internet started to take off, so I doubt 3G reception was much of a consideration at the design stage...

Indeed, but I'm sure I used to see stickers saying how they improved internal connectivity. Maybe it was on voyagers, and not pendilinos?

3G is pretty bad at the best of times. The quicker the 3G spectrum is refarmed for 4G, the better (as is happening on Vodafone and soon EE and Three, plus I assume O2). Congestion leads to something called cell breathing, which reduces the footprint of coverage. 2G and 4G don't do this.

4G is better even with a low signal, and when run at 800MHz can travel a lot further and probably even work better through train windows with solar reflective film. Vodafone and O2 have to limit 800MHz power for now, but EE and Three has no such restrictions... but annoyingly, Three still favours 3G over 4G at 800MHz so you'll cling on to mostly unusable 3G (for data) instead of 4G.

When that changes, and when EE has more 800MHz sites that can be at full power, and help get it to 95% geographic coverage by 2020, hopefully the problems will disappear.

You will need a phone on Three or EE that supports VoLTE to get the benefit of this enhanced coverage.

The odd thing is the signal claimed it was fairly strong and 3G when I looked, perhaps I just had a lot of traffic buffered, and the 3G was only sporadic.

Thanks, I suspect that it was more the cell breathing in that case - perhaps it's just the increased numbers of people on an 11 car train than on a 3 car one? For some reason my phone doesn't say 4G unless I'm abroad, which I'd put down to the (vodafone) contract I'm on.

Do 350s/175s/etc have solar reflective window coverings?

Tring Cutting is a notorious black spot anyway; nothing to do with the rolling stock!

I find that connectivity south of milton keynes regardless of the stock to be limited at best. Virgin used to not bother with card payments for the first 20 minutes out of Euston, I think contactless is ok though as it's offline.

For such a busy line you'd think that the train + mobile companies could actually work together to ensure blanket coverage.

 

[philjo]

It also affects radio reception, particularly DAB.
I have struggled to ever get any decent coverage whilst traveling on a Pendolino - the signal keeps dropping out, even if I can see the Hemel Hempstead transmitter outside the window!
also tried using the bbc radio app to listen using 3G which lasted a bit longer but still kept dropping out.
the last couple of times I gave up and used the BBC sport text updates via the wifi (it if worked)

As a comparison I have had several trips on the East coast route in 225 or HSTs where I had almost uninterrupted reception to listen to Test match special on 5 live sports extra between Stevenage and Edinburgh

 

[Bletchleyite]

DAB is a poor technology, the only purpose of which is to free up bandwidth.

FWIW I have managed to work on EE 4G near enough all the way from MK to Edinburgh via Brum, the only significant gap being Shap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Joe Paxton]

As a comparison I have had several trips on the East coast route in 225 or HSTs where I had almost uninterrupted reception to listen to Test match special on 5 live sports extra between Stevenage and Edinburgh

Perhaps there should be a TMS carriage with it relayed over the PA system

 

[47271]

The enhanced coverage stickers were definitely in Pendolinos up until three or four years ago, and there's no doubt in my mind that the signal is worse now that it was five years ago.

I'm not bothered about streaming anything while I'm on a train, all I'm interested in is getting on with my work. I avoid gambling with phone calls if I can - it's annoying for me, the person at the other end, and everyone around me.

So long as I can connect reliably to send and receive emails, do a bit of Googling and use my company intranet now and again that's fine for me.

I gave up on train wifi ages ago. Until recently I had a Vodafone dongle on my laptop and it used to be quite vulnerable to signal drops to the extent that it could be difficult to reconnect. Our IT department persuaded me to switch to using my iPhone as a wifi hotspot and I have to say that I'm now getting a more reliable connection than from the dongle, and it's miles better than train wifi. If the signal goes then the phone reconnects me a lot more smoothly. I run Outlook locally on my laptop so interruptions to connection go by pretty much unnoticed.

Finally, to be honest I don't notice any difference in quality of connection between Pendos and any other type of train, other than possibly as a result of them travelling faster - I definitely see a decline in connection at very high line speeds. I was on one for nearly six hours on Monday and was able to be productive for the whole journey, but we were crawling for quite a lot of that due to an OHL problem...

 

[LLivery]

Interesting that I find certain parts of the Midland Main Line I can get 4G when travelling on an HST but only 3G on a 222. I've found Voyagers bad for mobile reception in the past - I'm guessing something to do with the shiny film on the windows - but perhaps they have had boosters fitted and 222s haven't.

The 222s are diabolical for EE 4G signal. As soon as I get on, signal is gone for me.