Perpetual motion - Infinity train (Australia)

[Bald Rick]

I wondered when this would happen somewhere in the world, and here it is!

Australian ‘Infinity Train’ uses gravity to recharge batteries

A train on batteries that regenerate automatically sounds futuristic, but is exactly what Australian mining company Fortescue and UK-based Williams Advanced Engineering (WAE) are currently developing. The gravitational…

www.railtech.com

A train on batteries that regenerate automatically sounds futuristic, but is exactly what Australian mining company Fortescue and UK-based Williams Advanced Engineering (WAE) are currently developing. The gravitational energy from the heavy iron ore load will be used to regenerate the batteries while the train is running

 

[Dr Hoo]

With respect, BR, this isn't "perpetual motion". It is simply re-capturing some of the potential energy released by moving tens of thousands of tonnes of iron ore a long way downhill from a mineral plateau to sea level.

Self-acting inclines for moving wagons of coal, limestone, etc. down to water transport existed in the 18th century. Loads coming down pulled the empties back up.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes, perfect where your loads go downhill and the empties uphill

But as Dr Hoo says, it's not exactly a new idea (or perpetual motion) - it's just doing what modern electric vehicles already do when going downhill, but with much heavier vehicles.

 

[dutchflyer]

Even cleaner energy sources for lookalike upthehill lines were by WATER. Works much like a WC=watercloset, an invention that is also less as 200 yrs old. From memory quite a few such lines once operated in Switzerland.
Or perhaps those with donkey craft-where the animals had to draw going up, but could hitch a free ride going down!
And all those funiculaires-with 2 cars on a rope are also very low on energy (and thus Co2 and all that in modern times) once they are going.

 

[Bald Rick]

With respect, BR, this isn't "perpetual motion"

Haha yes I know - I wondered who would be first to pick me up on that!

 

[ac6000cw]

Even cleaner energy sources for lookalike upthehill lines were by WATER. Works much like a WC=watercloset, an invention that is also less as 200 yrs old. From memory quite a few such lines once operated in Switzerland.
Or perhaps those with donkey craft-where the animals had to draw going up, but could hitch a free ride going down!
And all those funiculaires-with 2 cars on a rope are also very low on energy (and thus Co2 and all that in modern times) once they are going.

I think pretty much all 'water power' is actually gravitational energy (including tidal power - tides are caused by the gravitational effect of the Moon moving water around)

 

[edwin_m]

I think pretty much all 'water power' is actually gravitational energy (including tidal power - tides are caused by the gravitational effect of the Moon moving water around)

Tidal power derives from the rotation of the earth. Eventually the earth will be rotating only once per month with the same side facing the moon in the same way as the moon faces the earth today, but that's billions of years away and it's unlikely a few tidal power systems will change that date much.

The energy for hydroelectric power comes from the sun evaporating water and causing rain in upland areas that runs into reservoirs. The same is true for water-powered funiculars, if they get their water from a local source near the top station. If they have no convenient source, many just pump the water up from the bottom, so they use electric energy similar to those powered by electric motors (but less intermittent).

There's a company that plans to store off-peak energy for use at peak times by winding weights up and down a mineshaft. A few years ago somebody suggested doing something similar by driving a heavy electric train up an incline at off-peak times and back down during the peak. But considering the length of railway needed to create enough vertical difference, and the relative inefficiency of the process, I think that's a non-starter.

 

[37201xoIM]

Ah, but those that correct the OP have not read it properly!...

‘The Infinity Train has the capacity to be the world’s most efficient battery electric locomotive’, said Fortescue CEO Elizabeth Gaines when the acquisition of UK-based WAE was completed on March 1. ‘The regeneration of electricity on the downhill loaded sections will remove the need for the installation of renewable energy generation and recharging infrastructure, making it a capital efficient solution for eliminating diesel and emissions from our rail operations.’

(From https://www.railwaygazette.com/trac...mail&utm_source=email&utm_content=newsletter; my emphasis)

It definitely says there "remove", not "reduce"! So having eliminated diesel traction AND removed the need for recharging infrastructure, they definitely have proved that the laws of physics are definitely wrong and perpetual motion definitely does exist. Definitely!

 

[edwin_m]

Ah, but those that correct the OP have not read it properly!...


(From https://www.railwaygazette.com/trac...mail&utm_source=email&utm_content=newsletter; my emphasis)

It definitely says there "remove", not "reduce"! So having eliminated diesel traction AND removed the need for recharging infrastructure, they definitely have proved that the laws of physics are definitely wrong and perpetual motion definitely does exist. Definitely!

That link says:

intended to capture regenerated energy from loaded downhill runs and store it to power the returning empty trip.

I guess this just means the railway in question is downhill all (or nearly all) the way from the mine to the port, and all loaded trains are downhil and empty trains uphill. So it can truly run without external energy input on that particular railway, and perhaps on others with similar flows and gradient characteristics, but certainly not on any other railway. Having gone through three pages of registration to read the rest of the article, it doesn't disabuse the casual reader of that misapprehension.

According to the map on Wikipedia the longest journey on the Fortescue is around 250km. It's probably quite impressive to be able to store enough energy to run 250km uphill, even if the train is empty. But I suppose in a train of that length it doesn't matter if they have a few wagons devoted to batteries.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Though given it's used for a mining operation, it's not necessarily a very ecological system overall...

 

[edwin_m]

Though given it's used for a mining operation, it's not necessarily a very ecological system overall...

They probably also keep quiet about the amount of energy needed to lift the ore out of the hole in the ground before it ever gets onto the train.

 

[37201xoIM]

That link says:

I guess this just means the railway in question is downhill all (or nearly all) the way from the mine to the port, and all loaded trains are downhil and empty trains uphill. So it can truly run without external energy input on that particular railway, and perhaps on others with similar flows and gradient characteristics, but certainly not on any other railway. Having gone through three pages of registration to read the rest of the article, it doesn't disabuse the casual reader of that misapprehension.

According to the map on Wikipedia the longest journey on the Fortescue is around 250km. It's probably quite impressive to be able to store enough energy to run 250km uphill, even if the train is empty. But I suppose in a train of that length it doesn't matter if they have a few wagons devoted to batteries.

Good point - I had neglected the point about the payload!!!