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Post-regulation regional bus services - a UK gap?

Bletchleyite

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I am not entirely au fait regarding funding but one of my big concerns about franchising is that local authority boundaries do not align with natural flows of passengers. South Yorkshire may well want to fund part of the route but only up to the city (boundary). Castleton is outside the South Yorkshire area so the argument goes why should South Yorkshire pay for Castleton's buses? By way of an example, a bus service between Warrington and Manchester was withdrawn and only runs Manchester to the authority boundary and so what happens if you want to travel by bus across the boundary. (I also don't trust politicians, they don't understand the business and will spend tax payer monies on their own panacea projects. Also, small independents offering lower operational cost bases lose out. Don't get me wrong, the current situation in the Peak District is ridiculous and a hybrid system is required, i.e. centrally funded, knocking council's heads together.)

If we look at other countries, you tend to have urban buses and regional buses, the former being managed by local authorities and the latter by wider organisations (e.g. in Austria the railway manages them, in Switzerland the post office!). We seem to lack the latter, with the two very much run together which causes this issue. Indeed in the UK urban services are often provided in small towns by interurban/regional buses. The only place where it seems to be completely distinct is in Scotland with Citylink and the Stagecoach Express services, though obviously that's all commercial for now at least.

Perhaps in time we'll realise this and set up the relevant organisations, perhaps as collaborations between local authorities? For instance, one could certainly argue in the Lake District that if we moved away from commercial operation the network should perhaps be managed by the National Park Authority in collaboration with both of the unitary authorities.
 
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Dai Corner

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If we look at other countries, you tend to have urban buses and regional buses, the former being managed by local authorities and the latter by wider organisations (e.g. in Austria the railway manages them, in Switzerland the post office!). We seem to lack the latter, with the two very much run together which causes this issue. Indeed in the UK urban services are often provided in small towns by interurban/regional buses. The only place where it seems to be completely distinct is in Scotland with Citylink and the Stagecoach Express services, though obviously that's all commercial for now at least.

Perhaps in time we'll realise this and set up the relevant organisations, perhaps as collaborations between local authorities? For instance, one could certainly argue in the Lake District that if we moved away from commercial operation the network should perhaps be managed by the National Park Authority in collaboration with both of the unitary authorities.
We do have Welsh Government sponsored TrawsCymru in Wales and Combined Authorities with elected Mayors in parts of England that tender bus services complementary to the commercial ones.
 

Bletchleyite

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We do have Welsh Government sponsored TrawsCymru in Wales

Yes, I suppose Traws is another example of the European style regulated regional bus approach. And I suppose due to sitting within TfW is not entirely dissimilar to the Austrian "Bahnbus" model, though is tendered rather than operated directly.

and Combined Authorities with elected Mayors in parts of England that tender bus services complementary to the commercial ones.

The Combined Authorities are a bit different, they're more just PTE replacements (or additions) that operate over fairly limited areas but as part of an authority with wider responsibilities than just transport. I don't think we would end up with a Combined Authority covering both Chesterfield and the whole Peak District, say?
 

JKP

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There is an East Midlands combined authority which covers Derby, Derbyshire, Nottingham and Nottinghamshire. Not sure what their transport policy is though.
 

John HG1

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Doesn't really matter what the controlling body is. They all have boundaries that don't necessarily fit with people's travel to work/leisure preferences. Surely there ought to be a simple solution that respects historical traffic flows.
 

Dai Corner

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Doesn't really matter what the controlling body is. They all have boundaries that don't necessarily fit with people's travel to work/leisure preferences. Surely there ought to be a simple solution that respects historical traffic flows.
I don't know about the others, but the West of England Combined Authority covers the Bristol travel to work area pretty accurately, as did the former County of Avon which I think had the same boundaries.

Edit: I'd forgotten how many now commute from Newport and Monmouthshire to Bristol, so take that back.
 
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mangad

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Bee Network services run into Derbyshire and all the way to Huddersfield. Transport for London have services running well outside the county boundary. Similarly both have services coming into their areas that they don't run that originate from outside. I am not sure currently that there is a gap. What would happen is a local leader decided to only fund/run services in their area is another matter, but we haven't had that yet
 

daodao

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Bee Network services run into Derbyshire and all the way to Huddersfield. Transport for London have services running well outside the county boundary. Similarly both have services coming into their areas that they don't run that originate from outside. I am not sure currently that there is a gap. What would happen is a local leader decided to only fund/run services in their area is another matter, but we haven't had that yet
There appears to be an issue regarding cross-boundary bus services between Greater Manchester (TfGM/Bee Network) and East Cheshire, with many such services curtailed or withdrawn completely in recent years. The most recent example is the loss of the direct bus service from Altrincham to Warrington via Little Bollington (latterly Warrington Transport service X5) on 5/1/25.
 

Steve440

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There used to be services between Huddersfield (West Yorkshire) and Barnsley/Sheffield (South Yorkshire) which disappeared some years ago probably because they were no longer commercially viable and the relevant local authorities (PTEs) only wanted to support the sections in their relative areas. Now we have Huddersfield to Denby Dale and Barnsley to Penistone for example with a relatively small gap between Denby Dale (West Yorkshire) and Penistone (South Yorkshire). It would be quite simple to join these routes if the operators or local authorities could work together. Maybe this https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/white-rose-agreement.283086/ could be the start.
 

daodao

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There used to be services between Huddersfield (West Yorkshire) and Barnsley/Sheffield (South Yorkshire) which disappeared some years ago probably because they were no longer commercially viable and the relevant local authorities (PTEs) only wanted to support the sections in their relative areas. Now we have Huddersfield to Denby Dale and Barnsley to Penistone for example with a relatively small gap between Denby Dale (West Yorkshire) and Penistone (South Yorkshire). It would be quite simple to join these routes if the operators or local authorities could work together. Maybe this https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/white-rose-agreement.283086/ could be the start.
Loss of direct cross-boundary bus services is less critical when there is a parallel rail service, as in the example you have quoted, where there is an hourly train service from Huddersfield to Barnsley/Sheffield via Denby Dale and Penistone.
 
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Teapot42

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Loss of direct cross-boundary bus services is less critical when there is a parallel rail service, as in the example you have quoted, where there is hourly train service from Huddersfield to Barnsley/Sheffield via Denby Dale and Penistone.
It depends how you define critical. The bus is likely to be chosen by those on a lower income who can't afford to run a car, and for whom the train is expensive. Rail stations are often limited, or not very near to the area they serve. A bus filling in the gaps can be useful even for those who do the bulk of a journey by train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There is an East Midlands combined authority which covers Derby, Derbyshire, Nottingham and Nottinghamshire. Not sure what their transport policy is though.
There is also a major flow outside this area in to South Yorkshire. For example Chesterfield and Dronfield in to Sheffield for work and leisure, the Hope Valley in to Sheffield for similar reasons, moreso due to limited links in any other direction.

While these links are supposedly being maintained under a permit scheme when franchising happens, what no-one will answer is how fares will be affected. The best way to get rid of a service is by hiking fares - including where connections are involved - to the point where it's unaffordable. Many journeys aren't Chesterfield centre to Sheffield centre for example, they might be a suburb of Chesterfield out to the Hallamshire Hospital or University. Currently covered by an operator-specific pass which will disappear once the Sheffield services are franchised.
 

RT4038

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If we look at other countries, you tend to have urban buses and regional buses, the former being managed by local authorities and the latter by wider organisations (e.g. in Austria the railway manages them, in Switzerland the post office!). We seem to lack the latter, with the two very much run together which causes this issue. Indeed in the UK urban services are often provided in small towns by interurban/regional buses. The only place where it seems to be completely distinct is in Scotland with Citylink and the Stagecoach Express services, though obviously that's all commercial for now at least.

Perhaps in time we'll realise this and set up the relevant organisations, perhaps as collaborations between local authorities? For instance, one could certainly argue in the Lake District that if we moved away from commercial operation the network should perhaps be managed by the National Park Authority in collaboration with both of the unitary authorities.
In the UK we have had a similar system (granted not the same , before everyone writes in with their pennyworth!) - urban buses provided by municipal operator and regional buses provided by a another operator, not originally but latterly usually state owned. Often the regional operator operated the urban buses too, and there were all sorts of historical (but not planned) reasons for that, with some cases the municipality having an interest in the regional operator to do that.

Even small urban areas used to have separate town services, but the financial pressures since the mid 70s have often caused these to be covered by the regional services as a cost saving measure. As with all of your comparisons of UK to germanic countries public transport systems it all boils down to tax money and their cultural outlook towards subsidising public transport compared to ours. I am not sure what 'issue' you are referring to being caused, but I think that our not wishing to spend any more than the barest minimum on provision, and an expectation that users will pay the lion share of the costs, has more to do with the current arrangements than whether (for instance) the Royal Mail or the Health service or the Education Department (all of whom you could make an argument for over the National Park Board) would be best 'controlling' the public transport network.
 

ChrisC

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There is an East Midlands combined authority which covers Derby, Derbyshire, Nottingham and Nottinghamshire. Not sure what their transport policy is though.
The new East Midlands combined authority does not seem to have had any noticeable impact as yet on public transport. There are plans to create a single transport strategy for the whole authority by the end of 2016.

There is also a major flow outside this area in to South Yorkshire. For example Chesterfield and Dronfield in to Sheffield for work and leisure, the Hope Valley in to Sheffield for similar reasons, moreso due to limited links in any other direction.
In addition to the major flows into Sheffield from Derbyshire there are also not insignificant flows from Nottinghamshire into South Yorkshire. There are numerous bus routes from the Worksop area into Doncaster and also to a lesser extent to Rotherham. There are also regular buses into Doncaster from the Retford area.
 

SLC001

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While I used an example where a train journey could be an alternative, many people want to use buses for short cross boundary journeys or at least encouraged to do so. Furthermore, buses are far more convenient and I guess there aren't many rail journeys which only cost £2.50 or whatever the maximum fare is now. Co-ordination is required but what we don't need are politicians telling us what we should do when in reality people will take the path of least resistance. I can think of many instances where politicians have wasted huge sums of public money on their pet projects without listening to the experts, preferring to listen to yes people or those who have a vested interest.
I assume that the East Midlands transport strategy plan is due to be completed by 2026?
 

The exile

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As with all of your comparisons of UK to germanic countries public transport systems it all boils down to tax money and their cultural outlook towards subsidising public transport compared to ours.
It’s also worth bearing in mind that in some larger European towns and cities those separate regional bus routes won’t actually take you into the city centre, but will dump you at a metro station/tram terminus on the outskirts.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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In the UK we have had a similar system (granted not the same , before everyone writes in with their pennyworth!) - urban buses provided by municipal operator and regional buses provided by a another operator, not originally but latterly usually state owned. Often the regional operator operated the urban buses too, and there were all sorts of historical (but not planned) reasons for that, with some cases the municipality having an interest in the regional operator to do that.

Even small urban areas used to have separate town services, but the financial pressures since the mid 70s have often caused these to be covered by the regional services as a cost saving measure. As with all of your comparisons of UK to germanic countries public transport systems it all boils down to tax money and their cultural outlook towards subsidising public transport compared to ours. I am not sure what 'issue' you are referring to being caused, but I think that our not wishing to spend any more than the barest minimum on provision, and an expectation that users will pay the lion share of the costs, has more to do with the current arrangements than whether (for instance) the Royal Mail or the Health service or the Education Department (all of whom you could make an argument for over the National Park Board) would be best 'controlling' the public transport network.
On the money (as usual, and in more ways than one).

It comes down to money in the main. Having some overarching regional coordination has its merits but it is still dependant on funding and unless people are living under a rock, we should all know that the public finances are both pretty stretched AND vulnerable to global events. London, so often cited as an exemplar of UK bus operation, is subsidised to the tune of c.£900m p.a. and even there, is no longer immune to the financial realities of day = cuts to bus services and widening of headways and falling passenger numbers for the last 8 years.

I'm sure that people would cheerfully pay more tax to fund public transport...as well as a removal of the 5p/litre fuel duty holiday.
 

Dai Corner

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They seem to be recognising and addressing cross-border issues in Yorkshire



Yorkshire’s three Metro Mayors have united under a new White Rose Agreement to champion Yorkshire and work together across key areas where they share mutual priorities. Mayor of West Yorkshire Tracy Brabin, South Yorkshire’s Mayor Oliver Coppard, and Mayor of York and North Yorkshire David Skaith signed the Agreement at the historic Selby Abbey which borders the three Mayoral areas. The Agreement outlines the priority issues the Mayors will work on together as well as what they will champion and advocate for Yorkshire collectively at a national and international level, and includes transport policy.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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They seem to be recognising and addressing cross-border issues in Yorkshire


This has been mentioned already in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/white-rose-agreement.283086/ and apparently, East Riding will come together in it after the local elections.

Of course, there will still be areas where the issues of buses and local government boundaries still come into play. Most notably around Great Ayton and Stokesley where North Yorkshire's support of bus services has been pretty scarce so regular buses run between Middlesbrough and Nunthorpe into the evening but not across the border, whilst buses from Yarm have totally disappeared south of Kirklevington.


I don't know about the others, but the West of England Combined Authority covers the Bristol travel to work area pretty accurately, as did the former County of Avon which I think had the same boundaries.

Edit: I'd forgotten how many now commute from Newport and Monmouthshire to Bristol, so take that back.
Indeed, Bristol is but not so much Bath.

Interesting to see how a Wessex combined authority would be disposed to public transport. Wiltshire is refreshingly pro-public transport, Dorset has always been tepid, whilst Somerset... well, they haven't a vessel to capture micturition. Don't know about Bournemouth and Poole though seems the combined authority plan is delayed currently.
 

duncombec

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I don't think the split is quite as stark as suggested in some areas, but much comes down to a lack of money, not necessarily a lack of desire. As we've just been through annual budget-setting season, it's worth recalling that a large number of the traditional "shire" counties are really struggling with the costs of social care - I can't recall the exact figures, but both Kent and Hampshire have stated that well over 50% of their budget (and I have vague recollection nearer 70%) is spent on "social care", be that for the young, the disabled or the elderly, or any combination thereof.

As such, it then comes down to a simple matter of "where can we spend what's left", and providing cross-boundary bus services then starts to fall into the "how does this benefit our taxpayers?", and is, for example, a library that is used entirely by taxpayers of county A perceived to be a better use of limited funds than a bus service that is used reasonably equally between a substantially smaller number of county B's taxpayers and even fewer of county A's? Despite the local-press style headlines, many counties do reasonably well with the limited staff and budget they have. (For all the comments, does anyone know how many staff Derbyshire CC have had working on the Hulley's fallout?).

To give a 'real life' example, Kent and Medway generally work very well together on cross-boundary services, with one authority taking the lead role and the other sending part funding, and different contracts are led by different authorities. There was a service between "South Chatham" and Maidstone ran as a tendered service on a roughly 2 hourly frequency for years, until the 2019 tendering round when the incumbent operator, not wanting to lose the contract, declared it partly commercial and combined it with an existing commercial school service, councils adding de minimis funding as a top-up for some journeys. Largely still OK, but a little awkward to use the 4pm departure from Maidstone because of scholars.

Enter Covid and on "reopening", the service remained largely withdrawn, except for the single return deminimis journey and the school journeys. No Saturday service, no sensible peak service, as the school journeys extended some 20-30 minutes out of Maidstone to a specific school. In order to get the bus back for a 3pm finish, the "lunchtime" departure was something like 12:30, so you couldn't go out for lunch (this seems surprisingly popular - you shop eat and go home, rather than rush back for lunch, or eat, shop and go home, rather than stuffing something down first). The rest of the off-peak, or the peak service was never restored, nor a Saturday service reinstated, because "not enough people are using it"... how can you use a bus that doesn't exist? When the operator eventually decided to throw in the towel, the service was put out to tender. The school journeys were barely affordable, whilst the off-peak shopping journeys were obscenely expensive, because service use had dropped off so much and the subsidy per passenger journey way beyond what any sensible council would pay.

The relevance to this thread: Medway weren't keen on subsidizing passengers leaving their area for another, whilst Kent didn't see the point in providing money for a service almost none of their residents used - and you can understand both points of view, however annoying it was. Various "people" have said it is ripe for reintroduction, but nobody quite knows how to go about it, even with BSIP. It wasn't attractive enough at 2-hourly to gain more passengers, yet wasn't viable at hourly because it didn't have enough.
 

Dai Corner

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The relevance to this thread: Medway weren't keen on subsidizing passengers leaving their area for another, whilst Kent didn't see the point in providing money for a service almost none of their residents used - and you can understand both points of view, however annoying it was. Various "people" have said it is ripe for reintroduction, but nobody quite knows how to go about it, even with BSIP. It wasn't attractive enough at 2-hourly to gain more passengers, yet wasn't viable at hourly because it didn't have enough.
I must admit I find it hard to see the social value of subsidising passengers wishing to go shopping in Maidstone instead of the Medway towns, especially as they could catch commercial buses into Chatham and from there to the county town?
 

Roger1973

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Yes - some councils co-operate well with each other, but in quite a few places, cross boundary services have dwindled since deregulation, and in areas where a county council has been split in to smaller unitary councils, it can be worse.

The TFL / fringes is variable - the old 'red bus / green bus' boundary didn't match the 1965 Greater London / Kent boundary in the Crayford area, and geographically, there isn't an obvious gap between the two. While there are TFL routes that extend east of Dartford, there are less cross-boundary routes than there used to be.

It's a mix of finance and politics.

Some councils take a very parochial view and the policy boils down to 'why should we support a service that takes people shopping in a town outside our area?' - even in large counties where nearest town inside the county is a lot further away from some villages than nearest town in the next county (which is where people tend to want to go.)

And some councils are reluctant to co-operate with one or more neighbouring councils (at times at least) because they are a different political colour.

I have seen one example of a council who published a bus map which showed everything inside their patch, but just coloured lines heading across the boundary, without anything to say where they went, and didn't even show the major hospital for much of the area that is / was about 3 bus stops in to the next council's patch.

But then finance can come in to it as well as policy - if council A wants / has the funds to run a particular service, but council B doesn't have the funds, it's unlikely to happen. And where a service in to another council area is an 'optional' rather than 'essential' shopping service, it's going to get cut before an 'essential' service does.
 

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