Potential solutions to yellow-line issue?

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure we would all agree that keeping people away from moving or potentially moving trains (or just falling down the gap) is a good thing. However just shouting at people is ineffective and is universally ignored, just resulting in staff getting increasingly irate.

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to how this situation could be improved? I think targetted automatic announcements at key times such as departure with a distinctive tone*, as they're much clearer than shouty staff, may help a bit. Another idea is not to have a simple yellow line, but instead to hatch all the way to the platform edge - it's a bit ugly, but people understand by and large that hatching means "don't be here unnecessarily" whereas a yellow line is much less obvious. It might also work better to use red rather than yellow hatching as yellow means warning but red means danger?

Another thing would be to look at the positioning of platform furniture and where people typically stand to see if that can be easily adjusted - there are many stations where this effectively forces people the wrong side.

Does anyone have any further suggestions?

* One of the best implementations I've seen of this is the old Connex station CIS which used a distinct tone, a very loud and hurried-sounding ascending "toot-toot-toot-tooooot", to signify the specifically hazardous situation of a passing train, even better if accompanied by a commanding-sounding voice such as that of the late great Phil Sayer. I think more could be made of this sort of approach, particularly if it was nationally consistent. By contrast the text to speech announcer wittering on about holding onto your prams at WMT stations doesn't stand out, while Anne just sounds like she's bored and wants to go home rather than giving urgent safety instructions.

 

[edwin_m]

I've seen the yellow hatching used at various places, either between the yellow line and the platform edge or on parts of the rest of the platform where people are not supposed to stand (platform too narrow or space used by dispatch staff).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen the yellow hatching used at various places, either between the yellow line and the platform edge or on parts of the rest of the platform where people are not supposed to stand (platform too narrow or space used by dispatch staff).

Milton Keynes Central has it at the extreme ends of the platforms, which I believe is to discourage suicides. You pretty much never see anyone standing there.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Confiscate peoples mobile devices and headphones on entry to the station, so that they have to actually be aware of their surroundings?

(I'm only half joking...)

 

[Harpo]

Platform edge hatching would make more sense for the public but I wonder how that would affect drivers?

There has to be a move away from shouting at passengers. It’s no good for shouter or recipient and creates an adversarial atmosphere, something the rail needs to reduce dramatically.

 

[HSTEd]

In the long term, define a door pattern which, if installed on a platform, would allow all doors on a new train to be accessed.

It will take decades, but the only way to end this problem is to eventually move to platform edge doors. The first step to that is forcing new rolling stock to standardise door positions to be a subset of a master pattern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note that on platforms on Deutsche Bahn where trains run through at above 160km/h (which used to be banned entirely) have fences about a metre and a half from the edge behind which passengers are expected to wait and walk, only passing in front (through gaps) to board or alight. This wouldn't work everywhere, but might be an option for newly built stations. A fence is a much more obvious thing than hatching or a line, but because it's back from the edge it doesn't need the gaps to fully align with the doors. It's sort of comparable to fast line fencing I suppose.

 

[RT4038]

Does anyone have any further suggestions?

The AMTRAK way - don't let passengers onto the platform until the train has arrived. Seems to work there......

 

[Tetragon213]

The AMTRAK way - don't let passengers onto the platform until the train has arrived. Seems to work there......

Euston Station would like to disagree!!

Platform edge hatching would make more sense for the public but I wonder how that would affect drivers?

There has to be a move away from shouting at passengers. It’s no good for shouter or recipient and creates an adversarial atmosphere, something the rail needs to reduce dramatically.

For some reason, I read that as "shooting at passengers". Bit drastic, but they'd get the message quick!

Being more serious, I think it will eventually have to come down to platform edge doors of some variety or another.

 

[43066]

I'm sure we would all agree that keeping people away from moving or potentially moving trains (or just falling down the gap) is a good thing. However just shouting at people is ineffective and is universally ignored, just resulting in staff getting increasingly irate.

Whenever I’ve seen this done properly (ie the person is absolutely bellowed at) it certainly isn’t ignored, and people are startled into moving back. Asking mildly and politely certainly won’t work where the person is distracted by a phone.

I think targetted automatic announcements at key times such as departure with a distinctive tone*

I remember the announcement you mention, and it did seem to work for that specific issue “back in the day” (I don’t remember it much beyond the early 2000s at the latest?). The problem nowadays is that we generally told there are too many announcements, and one of the biggest causes of people getting too close to the edge is people on mobile phones/with headphones/with protruding bags, who aren’t situationally aware, and aren’t listening to announcements anyway.

Platform edge hatching would make more sense for the public but I wonder how that would affect drivers?

I doubt it would make any difference to be honest, either to passengers or to drivers.

The AMTRAK way - don't let passengers onto the platform until the train has arrived. Seems to work there......

Either that or platform edge doors are probably the only really effective solutions, other than shouting. Neither will be happening at the vast majority of locations, so I expect the shouting will continue.

EDIT: yet another solution would be to change safety standards/risk appetites, such that yellow lines are no longer required, and to decide as a society that we no longer care whether people are injured or killed by getting too close to the platform edge. Again, not likely to happen!

 

[PupCuff]

There's probably 101 solutions with varying degrees of cost, work and feasibility, but a good first step with no cost would probably be looking at the language and tone used by the staff member when shouting.

"Get back" vs "Train's about to depart, stand clear please", etc

Avoiding blunt, commanding terms and using polite terms like please and thank you at least makes the shouting less aggressive.

 

[stuu]

There are wire rope platform edge barriers in Japan, which can deal with different door positions. Probably many reasons why we couldn't do this...

 

[43066]

Avoiding blunt, commanding terms and using polite terms like please and thank you at least makes the shouting less aggressive.

Generally it needs to be aggressive to be effective, though. The idea isn’t to make a polite request, it’s to deliver a rebuke leading to an immediate response.

 

[brad465]

Announcements with Ad hominem attacks so everyone else looks around and the offender is embarrassed? Like "Could the fat bloke with a chav's dress sense please get back behind the yellow line!"

 

[Mgameing123]

I'm sure we would all agree that keeping people away from moving or potentially moving trains (or just falling down the gap) is a good thing. However just shouting at people is ineffective and is universally ignored, just resulting in staff getting increasingly irate.

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to how this situation could be improved? I think targetted automatic announcements at key times such as departure with a distinctive tone*, as they're much clearer than shouty staff, may help a bit. Another idea is not to have a simple yellow line, but instead to hatch all the way to the platform edge - it's a bit ugly, but people understand by and large that hatching means "don't be here unnecessarily" whereas a yellow line is much less obvious. It might also work better to use red rather than yellow hatching as yellow means warning but red means danger?

Another thing would be to look at the positioning of platform furniture and where people typically stand to see if that can be easily adjusted - there are many stations where this effectively forces people the wrong side.

Does anyone have any further suggestions?

* One of the best implementations I've seen of this is the old Connex station CIS which used a distinct tone, a very loud and hurried-sounding ascending "toot-toot-toot-tooooot", to signify the specifically hazardous situation of a passing train, even better if accompanied by a commanding-sounding voice such as that of the late great Phil Sayer. I think more could be made of this sort of approach, particularly if it was nationally consistent. By contrast the text to speech announcer wittering on about holding onto your prams at WMT stations doesn't stand out, while Anne just sounds like she's bored and wants to go home rather than giving urgent safety instructions.

I think additional “useless” announcements is not the way to go. People are tired of them and won’t bother caring. What would be better would probably be a video campaign, sure it can also be easily ignored but atleast it won’t annoy other customers who know how to behave.

Announcements with Ad hominem attacks so everyone else looks around and the offender is embarrassed? Like "Could the fat bloke with a chav's dress sense please get back behind the yellow line!"

Good idea this should be implemented!

The AMTRAK way - don't let passengers onto the platform until the train has arrived. Seems to work there......

Would drastically increase dwell times.

 

[PupCuff]

Generally it needs to be aggressive to be effective, though. The idea isn’t to make a polite request, it’s to deliver a rebuke leading to an immediate response.

I don't think I agree it does, certainly not in the vast majority of cases. If someone is in imminent danger then, yes, by all means shout in a more direct manner, but these don't make up the most frequent cases we're talking about here.

Manchester Picc and the "red line", which there is no safety risk to being over because it's well back behind even the yellow line, yet the staff there frequently use as an excuse to shout aggressively.

Nottingham station and the drama some of the station staff make out of joining two 158s together, it's a movement of maybe 3mph at most over six feet (and even then half of it will remain stationary) which happens hundreds of times a day across the rail network yet some staff will shout unnecessarily.

Crewe and the aforementioned response to anyone who might merely creep over the yellow line despite the line being well back from the train and no indication that the person is going to place themselves in a position where they're too close to the train - there's more than a fair share of stations where if you tried to wait for everyone to be behind the line you'd never depart!

It's about the response being proportionate to the safety risk which is something the rail industry doesn't always get right. If everybody starts shouting directly for even the most minor of issues then when you actually need people to move they're not going to give it as much attention or respect.

 

[Lewisham2221]

"Get back" vs "Train's about to depart, stand clear please", etc

Avoiding blunt, commanding terms and using polite terms like please and thank you at least makes the shouting less aggressive.

From what I've witnessed, it usually starts with "stand back please" followed by a slightly sterner "behind the yellow line please" followed by a very blunt "stand back" or "get behind the line".

It has to be shouted - someone standing 50+ metres away, possibly wearing headphones, on a busy platform with ambient noise and other announcements, dealing with the din of a diesel engine quite simply isn't going to stand a chance of hearing a polite, gentle, softly spoken request.

I've also witnessed the PA being used to make a very targeted announcement at individuals and still taking multiple announcements to get the message across.

 

[43066]

Nottingham station and the drama some of the station staff make out of joining two 158s together, it's a movement of maybe 3mph at most over six feet (and even then half of it will remain stationary) which happens hundreds of times a day across the rail network yet some staff will shout unnecessarily.

I won’t comment on the others because I don’t have enough experience of them. However, in my experience of attaching at Nottingham (and of Nottingham station more generally), there’s a good deal of bad behaviour, busy/noisy platforms, a poor station layout, and the platform staff generally deal with it pretty effectively by being fairly robust. You don’t move trains where people are touching them/too close, “because it’s only six feet”. What if someone has fallen down the gap and you can’t see them?

there's more than a fair share of stations where if you tried to wait for everyone to be behind the line you'd never depart!

This is absolutely not the attitude to take if you’re authorising a train movement, unless you want to risk a prison sentence. Ultimately, if it isn’t safe, you simply wait until it is. As a result, if people don’t move back because the staff are afraid to shout where necessary, everyone will be delayed.

It's about the response being proportionate to the safety risk which is something the rail industry doesn't always get right. If everybody starts shouting directly for even the most minor of issues then when you actually need people to move they're not going to give it as much attention or respect.

Again this is easy to say when it isn’t you who’s taking the risk if something goes wrong. My experience of watching dispatch (and indeed doing it myself as a DOO driver) is that people who are drunk/on phones or whatever sometimes need to be bellowed at to get them to move.

From what I've witnessed, it usually starts with "stand back please" followed by a slightly sterner "behind the yellow line please" followed by a very blunt "stand back" or "get behind the line".

It has to be shouted - someone standing 50+ metres away, possibly wearing headphones, on a busy platform with ambient noise and other announcements, dealing with the din of a diesel engine quite simply isn't going to stand a chance of hearing a polite, gentle, softly spoken request.

I've also witnessed the PA being used to make a very targeted announcement at individuals and still taking multiple announcements to get the message across.

Agreed.

I don’t really understand why this is generally perceived as a “problem”. If people would just stand where they’re supposed to - and surely people on this forum have enough knowledge to do so - they won’t get shouted at!

 

[PupCuff]

I won’t comment on the others because I don’t have enough experience of them. However, in my experience of attaching at Nottingham (and of Nottingham station more generally), there’s a good deal of bad behaviour, busy/noisy platforms, a poor station layout, and the platform staff generally deal with it pretty effectively by being fairly robust. You don’t move trains where people are touching them/too close, “because it’s only six feet”. What if someone has fallen down the gap and you can’t see them?



This is absolutely not the attitude to take if you’re authorising a train movement, unless you want to risk a prison sentence. Ultimately, if it isn’t safe, you simply wait until it is. As a result, if people don’t move back because the staff are afraid to shout where necessary, everyone will be delayed.



Again this is easy to say when it isn’t you who’s taking the risk if something goes wrong. My experience of watching dispatch (and indeed doing it myself as a DOO driver) is that people who are drunk/on phones or whatever sometimes need to be bellowed at to get them to move.



Agreed.

I don’t really understand why this is generally perceived as a “problem”. If people stand where they’re supposed to - and surely people on this forum have enough knowledge to do so - they won’t get shouted at!

This is illustrating the issue very well though - there's a disconnect between the perception of the risk by frontline staff and the actual risk which exists. I won't go through each of your specific points, but I do agree with the statement "if it isn't safe, you wait". The key part of that is "if it isn't safe"; in all the cases I've cited above, it is safe.

Hyperbole about prison sentences isn't helpful, if you aren't criminally negligent you won't go to prison. Not screaming at a passenger standing between the red and yellow line will not get you sent to prison.

It works both ways, I frequently see things with little to no risk treated as though they're the next Chernobyl whilst incidents where gaping safety holes exist are allowed to happen because someone hasn't perceived a clear risk as significant.

Both are problematic in their own ways.

 

[43066]

This is illustrating the issue very well though - there's a disconnect between the perception of the risk by frontline staff and the actual risk which exists. I won't go through each of your specific points, but I do agree with the statement "if it isn't safe, you wait". The key part of that is "if it isn't safe"; in all the cases I've cited above, it is safe.

Interesting points and, for the record, I completely agree with you that there’s an interesting wider discussion to be had around risk tolerance and whether the railway industry, and the legal system, get this area right at the moment. However that’s probably beyond the remit of this thread.

Hyperbole about prison sentences isn't helpful, if you aren't criminally negligent you won't go to prison. Not screaming at a passenger standing between the red and yellow line will not get you sent to prison.

Trouble is, as the Martin Zee case demonstrated, you can end up in the dock and under threat of prison, even where no criminal negligence has taken place. That case alone should scare the bejesus out of anyone responsible for train dispatch. We’re probably all also aware of serious PTI incidents that have led to severe repercussions, including job loss or threat of it, even if they didn’t make it to the criminal courts.

As things stand absolute “safety first” is the only way to go, and is drummed into front line staff. If something does happen during dispatch we all know the member or staff will be hung out to dry: “if you weren’t absolutely sure it was safe you should have waited”.

It works both ways, I frequently see things with little to no risk treated as though they're the next Chernobyl whilst incidents where gaping safety holes exist are allowed to happen because someone hasn't perceived a clear risk as significant.

Drivers being able to “see themselves away” when ECS, at locations where they can’t see the full length of their train, is one that springs to mind . I’ll say no more.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whenever I’ve seen this done properly (ie the person is absolutely bellowed at) it certainly isn’t ignored, and people are startled into moving back.

Announcements with Ad hominem attacks so everyone else looks around and the offender is embarrassed? Like "Could the fat bloke with a chav's dress sense please get back behind the yellow line!"

I think this is the solution. I‘ve seen (or rather heard) it done on the tube in a different way, which is a driver announcing after departure “To the woman in the red coat who boarded the third coach; please do not try to stop the doors closing, you could hurt yourself and you have delayed everyone on this train as they try to get home”. She looked like she wanted the world to end. Bet she didnt do it again, and I also bet no one on that train would do it either.

So something like “please stand behind the yellow line for your own safety and that of others; that includes you sir with the black rucksak - the driver of the approaching train will have to come in more slowly and I’m sure you don’t want to be personally responsible for delaying everyone’s journey today”.

This is probably why I don’t get to make announcements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t really understand why this is generally perceived as a “problem”. If people would just stand where they’re supposed to - and surely people on this forum have enough knowledge to do so - they won’t get shouted at!

If anyone on here stands where they know full well they shouldn't be they deserve shouting at. But most rail users don't have this knowledge, and it IS a recent change of practice to be bothered about it. All in all it's therefore been handled terribly. Would it perhaps even justify radio and television advertising to both explain the change and why? I think it might.

 

[brad465]

I think this is the solution. I‘ve seen (or rather heard) it done on the tube in a different way, which is a driver announcing after departure “To the woman in the red coat who boarded the third coach; please do not try to stop the doors closing, you could hurt yourself and you have delayed everyone on this train as they try to get home”. She looked like she wanted the world to end. Bet she didnt do it again, and I also bet no one on that train would do it either.

So something like “please stand behind the yellow line for your own safety and that of others; that includes you sir with the black rucksak - the driver of the approaching train will have to come in more slowly and I’m sure you don’t want to be personally responsible for delaying everyone’s journey today”.

This is probably why I don’t get to make announcements.

When I saw you quoted my suggestion I thought "Oh gosh what now?" I was certainly not expecting complete agreement. Also if you haven't had the pleasure of watching the Top Gear trio do an afternoon radio show, Clarkson shamed certain motorists he could see on the traffic cameras as part of some whopping great entertainment, which is similar to this platform idea.

Over 10 years ago there was a travelcard forum meet where a group of us casually visited different places, including all the lines through and around Heathrow (and the T5 pods). At Terminals 1, 2, 3 (as it was then) on the HEx up platform, we were waiting for our Connect train and an Express was just about to leave. One passenger just missed that Express and the platform announcer casually said "Please stand clear this train is ready to leave...you'll have to wait for the next one mate."

 

[Blackpool boy]

One of the best implementations I've seen of this is the old Connex station CIS which used a distinct tone, a very loud and hurried-sounding ascending "toot-toot-toot-tooooot", to signify the specifically hazardous situation of a passing train, even better if accompanied by a commanding-sounding voice such as that of the late great Phil Sayer. I think more could be made of this sort of approach, particularly if it was nationally consistent

In an age where people use ear phones is that really going to be effective?

do you not think that people have got more shouty on the platforms because the other methods of announcing hazards wasnt working because people tune out to the announcements as has been repeated often on here

 

[Bletchleyite]

In an age where people use ear phones is that really going to be effective?

More effective than random yelling.

do you not think that people have got more shouty on the platforms because the other methods of announcing hazards wasnt working because people tune out to the announcements as has been repeated often on here

I don't have much confidence in the railway's ability to design effective solutions to passenger management, no. They prove themselves incompetent at it over and over again.

 

[Tester]

Send all passengers to Japan to learn how to board trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

Send all passengers to Japan to learn how to board trains

There is something in this, though. A stricter need to be behind the yellow line, which was created to stop people getting belted or knocked off the platform by the slipstream from passing trains but is now much more about safe dispatch and departure, is a significant change in how passengers are expected to use stations. Yet nothing whatsoever was done to actually educate them on the change and the reasons for it - it was as before, then the next day they were getting yelled at by what they perceived to be increasingly irate and surly staff for just behaving as they did before (and trains are being delayed by not being dispatched until the platform has cleared because of that poor compliance to the new rule, too).

That's why I suggested a TV/radio campaign above - if you want to CHANGE behaviour you need different approaches to if you simply want to enforce correct behaviour among people who already know what they should do but are simply disregarding that. To use another example, if you change default 30mph limits to 20mph as Wales did, just starting issuing tickets from day one isn't going to be an effective means of changing behaviour and garnering support for the change - you need publicity campaigns and education both on what is changing and why, and Wales did do that - and in my experience compliance is high.

Also note the success of "the 3 Ss" - it's an annoying earworm, but what rail user other than the most ignorant one doesn't now know 61016? I'm sure something like "Stay back, stay safe" if used absolutely everywhere would be a similarly effective earworm to help change behaviour.

 

[PeterC]

There are wire rope platform edge barriers in Japan, which can deal with different door positions. Probably many reasons why we couldn't do this...

That looks pretty neat but British exceptionalism means that if it works overseas then it is impossible here.

 

[hux385]

How about...

Make it such that railcards can be purchased by anyone, however, when purchasing them, you have to complete a 5-minute railway safety quiz including questions about the Platform Train Interface (either online or at the ticket office). People will do anything to get a discount!

Alternatively, and this is probably too 'police-state' for some people's liking, but create a train delay fine system for passengers who deliberately stand too close to the train and prevent it dispatching on time. This probably could only be used in extreme cases as it might be hard to enforce.

 

[HSTEd]

Alternatively, and this is probably too 'police-state' for some people's liking, but create a train delay fine system for passengers who deliberately stand too close to the train and prevent it dispatching on time. This probably could only be used in extreme cases as it might be hard to enforce.

It would also lead to people deserting the railway, because they are scared the railway will scapegoat them for its operational failings.