Provision of saloon heating in electric buses

[Snow1964]

Mod note - discussion split from this thread:

London Buses Discussion

I thought it might be a good idea to have a running thread for London Buses news (i.e. TfL services) So first off - TfL are trialling route branding on routes around Barkingside. The colour coding branding is on the vehicles and at bus stops...

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It seems that the winter weather, and the need for saloon heating, is proving bit much for some of the electrics' undersized batteries.

Over the last few days multiple routes have been seeing diesel buses, both morning and evening, eg 371.

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[Busaholic]

It seems that the winter weather, and the need for saloon heating, is proving bit much for some of the electrics' undersized batteries.

Over the last few days multiple routes have been seeing diesel buses, both morning and evening, eg 371.

London Vehicle Finder

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lvf.io

There can't be enough 'spare' hybrid/diesel vehicles at some of the garages which operate electrics to provide a full service, surely, unless some duties are not being covered? There are interesting videos on YouTube showing electric buses non-operational in various U.S locations at present due to the extreme cold and snow, but, to be fair, it was always known that fully electric vehicles would suffer more in these conditions than a diesel.

 

[dmncf]

I guess that bus operators had a choice of buying:
- An electric bus that achieves the required mileage when in the temperature range experienced on 99.5% of days
- An electric bus that achieves the required mileage when in the temperature range experienced on 99.9% of days, but has heavier, more expensive batteries
The second option might not be worth it.

 

[Mikw]

It seems that the winter weather, and the need for saloon heating, is proving bit much for some of the electrics' undersized batteries.

Over the last few days multiple routes have been seeing diesel buses, both morning and evening, eg 371.

London Vehicle Finder

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lvf.io

Does this affect only certain models?
We have Yutongs and Wright electrics in our city. the Yutongs are lovely and warm and working well - the Wrights are freezing cold inside

 

[Snow1964]

Does this affect only certain models?
We have Yutongs and Wright electrics in our city. the Yutongs are lovely and warm and working well - the Wrights are freezing cold inside

More a case of what the Operator specifies.

It Might be the case that Yutong fits as default automatic saloon heating designed for temperatures of -5c (whatever number is), so buses will have a system more like the climate control in your car. Select a temperature and let the system maintain it.

Perhaps Wrightbus has put heating as optional extra, or fitted a basic system that has to be manually turned on and off.

If it was one vehicle that was cold, I suspect it is fault or driver forgetting to turn the heating on, but if it's by class of vehicle then almost certainly it's a poor choice of specification to save initial cost.

 

[Goldfish62]

Perhaps Wrightbus has put heating as optional extra, or fitted a basic system that has to be manually turned on and off.

If it was one vehicle that was cold, I suspect it is fault or driver forgetting to turn the heating on, but if it's by class of vehicle then almost certainly it's a poor choice of specification to save initial cost.

Saloon heating is usually automatic and not controlled by the driver.

Saloon heating also comes as standard, unsurprisingly, rather than an optional extra. It's only hot climates where it wouldn't be specified.

As stated earlier on this thread, it's really cold weather that batteries have problems with, so I'm going with the explanation that the heating has been isolated to preserve battery charge. Now, whether it gets switched back on once this particularly cold snap has passed is another matter...

 

[Mikey C]

You'd hope the next generation of electric buses have better range, as in a few years there won't be any hybrid/diesel buses around as backup.

And yes it's been cold this week, but hardly excessively cold for winter.

 

[Andyh82]

Saloon heating is usually automatic and not controlled by the driver.

Saloon heating also comes as standard, unsurprisingly, rather than an optional extra. It's only hot climates where it wouldn't be specified.

As stated earlier on this thread, it's really cold weather that batteries have problems with, so I'm going with the explanation that the heating has been isolated to preserve battery charge. Now, whether it gets switched back on once this particularly cold snap has passed is another matter...

In the First York thread it’s been suggested the Wrightbus electric buses that are being delivered don’t have saloon heating, so maybe similar models in London would be the same?

 

[py_megapixel]

Electric buses without saloon heating?!? Why on earth would Wright even offer that?

 

[Goldfish62]

In the First York thread it’s been suggested the Wrightbus electric buses that are being delivered don’t have saloon heating, so maybe similar models in London would be the same?

No, saloon heating is in the TfL vehicle specification.

 

[Non Multi]

Electric buses without saloon heating?!? Why on earth would Wright even offer that?

Presumably without a diesel generator (fitted for heating) and fuel tank on board there's a weight (and build cost) saving and therefore a slightly higher battery range. Not going to be at all pleasant in winter though.

 

[Goldfish62]

Presumably without a diesel generator (fitted for heating) and fuel tank on board there's a weight (and build cost) saving and therefore a slightly higher battery range. Not going to be at all pleasant in winter though.

Apart from early deliveries electric buses don't use diesel generators for heating. They wouldn't be certified as zero emission. They use air source heat pumps for heating and air chill.

Electric buses come fitted with heating as standard. As I've already stated.

 

[py_megapixel]

Presumably without a diesel generator (fitted for heating) and fuel tank on board there's a weight (and build cost) saving and therefore a slightly higher battery range. Not going to be at all pleasant in winter though.

There's no need to fit a diesel generator for heating - EVs just use an air-source heat pump, or even conventional electric heaters, run using the battery. This does indeed reduce the range, but the buses are still more energy efficient than their internal combustion counterparts.

Not heating the saloon is a dreadful idea and I am not sure any self-respecting manufacturer should be offering it as an option!

 

[Snow1964]

As stated earlier on this thread, it's really cold weather that batteries have problems with, so I'm going with the explanation that the heating has been isolated to preserve battery charge. Now, whether it gets switched back on once this particularly cold snap has passed is another matter...

Good logic, cold weather, isolate heating
warmer (or less cold) weather turn it on.

I knew some bus companies seem to run for their operating convenience rather than as a service, but that really is anti passenger comfort

 

[SSmith2009]

In the First York thread it’s been suggested the Wrightbus electric buses that are being delivered don’t have saloon heating, so maybe similar models in London would be the same?

The GB Kites First have in Leicester don't have heating

 

[Mikw]

The GB Kites First have in Leicester don't have heating

That explains it then. I quite like them compared to the Streetlites that went before) but as a passenger going to hospital on one of them the other day it was almost unbearably cold.
Luckily i caught (on purpose) a Yutong on the way back and that was lovely and warm. The same buses are lovely and cool on hot days too.

 

[DaveLondon]

The GB Kites First have in Leicester don't have heating

I am interrsted to know what your source for this is and why would First have removed them as they are in standard specification as far as I can see. Plenty of pretty cold diesel and hybrid vehicles in the last few days. All the electrics I have been on have been fine!

 

[Mikw]

I am interrsted to know what your source for this is and why would First have removed them as they are in standard specification as far as I can see. Plenty of pretty cold diesel and hybrid vehicles in the last few days. All the electrics I have been on have been fine!

As a frequent passenger on these they have (on all my trips) never been heated in the cabin. I know that's not actual written evidence but it's actual evidence from a passenger

 

[greyman42]

As a frequent passenger on these they have (on all my trips) never been heated in the cabin. I know that's not actual written evidence but it's actual evidence from a passenger

As i can testify for the York Kites.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

First Glasgow is an oddity as the 9 branded E200EVs seem to have the air con stuck on all year round but the other E200 EVs don't seem to have this issue.

 

[Jordan Adam]

With First Aberdeen I'm yet to find a Yutong that hasn't been nice and warm in winter, in fact a few weeks ago i was on one in sub-zero temperatures and it was so warm inside that someone had opened one of the windows.

 

[Mikw]

With First Aberdeen I'm yet to find a Yutong that hasn't been nice and warm in winter, in fact a few weeks ago i was on one in sub-zero temperatures and it was so warm inside that someone had opened one of the windows.

Same with the Leicester batch of Yutongs too. Lovely climate control. toasty in the winter, cool in the summer. I like the "Wright kites" but they just don't compare favourably from a passenger temperature comfort perspective.
Anecdotally i've heard a bit of whinging this week from fellow passengers that they want the diesels back and that new technology "always makes things worse"

 

[Jordan Adam]

Same with the Leicester batch of Yutongs too. Lovely climate control. toasty in the winter, cool in the summer. I like the "Wright kites" but they just don't compare favourably from a passenger temperature comfort perspective.
Anecdotally i've heard a bit of whinging this week from fellow passengers that they want the diesels back and that new technology "always makes things worse"

Agreed, i've found this to be true across the board with other Yutong products, it also helps in summer that there's plenty of vents. The Yutong TC9s for example have 14 individual adjustable aircon vents just for the back row of seats!

I've not been on any Kites however Aberdeen does have Streetdeck Hydroliners which first entered service in January 2021 and since day one drivers have complained about the heating (or lack there of) on them. On the plus side i do generally find them to be nice and cool in the summer despite the tiny opening windows. That being said it should be noted that the Hydroliners use a different system to the Electroliners with the heat source being coolant that goes through the fuel cell.

 

[AB93]

In the First York thread it’s been suggested the Wrightbus electric buses that are being delivered don’t have saloon heating, so maybe similar models in London would be the same?

Electric buses without saloon heating?!? Why on earth would Wright even offer that?

Not heating the saloon is a dreadful idea and I am not sure any self-respecting manufacturer should be offering it as an option!

I knew some bus companies seem to run for their operating convenience rather than as a service, but that really is anti passenger comfort

The GB Kites First have in Leicester don't have heating

I am interrsted to know what your source for this is and why would First have removed them as they are in standard specification as far as I can see. Plenty of pretty cold diesel and hybrid vehicles in the last few days. All the electrics I have been on have been fine!

As i can testify for the York Kites.

I travelled on First York Kite 63650 earlier which was toasty warm with air clearly blowing out of the vents. Evidentially, they do have built in heating. All the double decks I went on bar one had working heating too.

 

[lookapigeon]

Saloon heating is usually automatic and not controlled by the driver.

Saloon heating also comes as standard, unsurprisingly, rather than an optional extra. It's only hot climates where it wouldn't be specified.

As stated earlier on this thread, it's really cold weather that batteries have problems with, so I'm going with the explanation that the heating has been isolated to preserve battery charge. Now, whether it gets switched back on once this particularly cold snap has passed is another matter...

I was on a BYD Enviro 200 the other day and the vents were blowing out cold air from the air conditioning in the middle of winter. Lovely for summer, but very uncomfortable for winter when factored in with the outside temperature.

I'm surprised there is no manual override or control of the heating. I always just thought that it was drivers that didn't know how to or couldn't be bothered to work the heating controls.

 

[Geordie driver]

I was on a BYD Enviro 200 the other day and the vents were blowing out cold air from the air conditioning in the middle of winter. Lovely for summer, but very uncomfortable for winter when factored in with the outside temperature.

I'm surprised there is no manual override or control of the heating. I always just thought that it was drivers that didn't know how to or couldn't be bothered to work the heating controls.

The saloon heater controls the driver is permitted to use are an on/off switch in the cab, I think most drivers can manage that.

I thought it was common knowledge that the big operators think nothing of putting out buses with no heating in the winter and the heaters jammed on in the summer?

They do this to cut costs, a reasonable temperature is not a legal requirement. Basic stuff that would be unacceptable in a private car, but is fine for bus users.

Customer focused industry mind.

The drivers want a warm bus in winter and a cool bus in the summer, they are stuck in the same big metal box as the rest of us.

I have, in the past, been sent home and disciplined for refusing to drive a bus with the heaters jammed on on a very hot day.