Puzzled by options offered by forum booking engine (Cheadle Hulme to Dinsdale)

[brasseagle]

I'm looking to book tickets from Cheadle Hulme (CHU) near Stockport, to Dinsdale (DND) near Darlington on Saturday 25th May, returning Wednesday 29th May. I'm looking for flexibility, so Advances are out. I have specified "Avoid Manchester Piccadilly". 2 x passengers both with Senior Railcards.
Taking as an example the 1143 departure, FastJP gives several different options (all arriving at Dinsdale at 1528), depending on where I change trains. To simplify things, I'm looking at two options:
Change at Stockport, Sheffield, Darlington
Change at Stockport, Doncaster, Darlington
Looking at brfares, I should be able to buy 2 x Off Peak Return with Railcard discount 2 x £50.75 = £101.50.
However, the forums journey planner is only offering me tickets at £207.90: Outward 2 x Anytime Day Single 1st with Railcard @£60.15 = £120.30, Return 2 x Anytime Day Single with Railcard @£43.80 = £87.60.
If I travel an hour later 1243 ex-CHU, I get offered the £101.50 tickets (hurrah!) BUT with an extra change (4 changes: Stockport, Doncaster, York, Darlington).
If I travel yet another hour later 1343 ex CHU, I get the £101.50 tickets, and a 3-change journey (Stockport, Doncaster, Darlington).
I have not managed to get the booking engine to offer me the route where I change Stockport, Sheffield, Darlington.

What I would really like is the "middle" option: leave Cheadle Hulme 1243 (which means arrive Dinsdale 1628), change 3 times (Stockport/Sheffield/Darlington or Stockport/Doncaster/Darlington) and pay £101.50
Any suggestions if this is possible, and if so, how?

 

[yorkie]

Can you provide a hyperlink please?

 

[brasseagle]

Link is as follows:

Cheadle Hulme > Dinsdale - Search Results

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare fares and get the best value for money through split tickets and booking cheap train tickets online and on our mobile app, E-Tickets to your phone, no booking fee, save up to 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

 

[plugwash]

Since it's offering first class tickets but not standard class ones, I'd suspect a reservation related issue on one of the TOCs that is doing psuedo-compulsory reservations.

Sadly even though we all know that pseudo-compulsory reservations are bull****, accredited retailers have to play along.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's the LNER train falsely showing sold out that is your problem. Of course you can buy an off-peak ticket and just use it then anyway.

 

[brasseagle]

Ah OK, I think I understand. But just so I'm entirely clear:

1. The Rules mean that the booking engine cannot sell me a flexible ticket (eg the off-peak return SVR) without me making a reservation on a particular service (if pseudo-reservations are enforced).

2. If I have a flexible ticket, I can legitimately board a service without a reservation. I appreciate that I may not get a seat, but I can still board.

3. I can get a flexible ticket by booking an itinerary I do not intend to use, and travelling on different trains to those I have booked. (Or, I can just find a booking office a buy a ticket there!)

There are a (bewildering!) number of options for my journey with different TOCs depending where I change: EMR, Cross-Country, TPE, LNER. If I have a bog-standard Off-Peak Return in my hand / on my phone, I can get on any of those trains (as long as I abide by the ticket restrictions, ie after 0845 Mon-Fri).

 

[yorkie]

Ah OK, I think I understand. But just so I'm entirely clear:

1. The Rules mean that the booking engine cannot sell me a flexible ticket (eg the off-peak return SVR) without me making a reservation on a particular service (if pseudo-reservations are enforced).

Yes, but only if the service is marked as 'mandatory' reservations in the data

2. If I have a flexible ticket, I can legitimately board a service without a reservation. I appreciate that I may not get a seat, but I can still board.

Yes

3. I can get a flexible ticket by booking an itinerary I do not intend to use, and travelling on different trains to those I have booked.

True

(Or, I can just find a booking office a buy a ticket there!)

If you do not want any accompanying itinerary, you can use a site such as the TPE mixing deck, some TVMs, or a ticket office may do it.

This doesn't affect validity in any way

There are a (bewildering!) number of options for my journey with different TOCs depending where I change: EMR, Cross-Country, TPE, LNER. If I have a bog-standard Off-Peak Return in my hand / on my phone, I can get on any of those trains (as long as I abide by the ticket restrictions, ie after 0845 Mon-Fri).

Yes

 

[brasseagle]

Many thanks.

(I never realised it was going to get so complicated to get tickets for what I envisaged as a fairly simple journey!)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@brasseagle. Presume you've specifically chosen to avoid travelling via Manchester Piccadilly because of the likelihood of ending up on rail replacement buses (or having to schlep across the City Centre to Victoria)?

 

[brasseagle]

Mainly trying to avoid the transfer between Piccadilly and Victoria. Seem to be no trains running between the two on the outbound journey (Saturday 25th), and although people on the forum in another thread have been kind enough to point out the alternatives (tram / free bus / walk), it just seemed simpler to avoid - I'll have luggage just big enough to make it inconvenient.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's not just reservation related. Some of the itineraries have no fares available because splits are turned off (perhaps accidentally?) in your example search and there is no through fare. Due to what I would describe as a poor design decision outwith Raileasy's control, these circumstances and the context around them are not well-communicated back to Raileasy's system, and it may show "Sold out"/no availability when the problem is not actually availability related:

For example, this journey does not include any mandatory-reservation services at all.



My advice would be to turn splits back on.

 

[brasseagle]

Thanks for the advice. I'll maybe rerun it through with splits on; will certainly bear that in mind for future planning. I think I'm sorted with what I need for this trip thanks to @yorkie 's advice above.

 

[AlbertBeale]

If you do not want any accompanying itinerary, you can use a site such as the TPE mixing deck, some TVMs, or a ticket office may do it.

I'm puzzled by the "may" - do you mean that some won't? In all my times buying a ticket at a ticket office, unless I've been getting an Advance with (inevitably) an itinerary necessary, I can't ever remember being offered any specific itinerary (unless of course I've asked for information about relevant train times while I'm buying the ticket). I always thought that was a good reason to use a ticket office rather than a machine, because some of the latter demand that you choose a time even if you don't want a ticket tied to a specific train; I realise that for many tickets, the timing you choose on the machine isn't anything you need to take any notice of, but I sometimes travel with someone who gets alarmed if there seems to be a restriction we're not adhering to - and I'm sure many punters don't understand that the timing you choose on the machine is in many cases irrelevant.

 

[yorkie]

I'm puzzled by the "may" - do you mean that some won't?

If they are in journey planning mode they won't.

In all my times buying a ticket at a ticket office, unless I've been getting an Advance with (inevitably) an itinerary necessary, I can't ever remember being offered any specific itinerary (unless of course I've asked for information about relevant train times while I'm buying the ticket)

I have, and if staff are aware that the journey may involve trains marked as reservation compulsory or recommended, they are perhaps more likely to.

For example staff at Bedford last year refused to just issue tickets I asked for and instead insisted on planning the journey and then offering me tickets accordingly.

. I always thought that was a good reason to use a ticket office rather than a machine

More the other day round in some cases; I've been refused sales many times in the past by people.

I am glad that these days such interactions can generally be avoided.

, because some of the latter demand that you choose a time even if you don't want a ticket tied to a specific train; I realise that for many tickets, the timing you choose on the machine isn't anything you need to take any notice of, but I sometimes travel with someone who gets alarmed if there seems to be a restriction we're not adhering to - and I'm sure many punters don't understand that the timing you choose on the machine is in many cases irrelevant.

It makes no difference to the validity.

Yes, some people don't realise their tickets are flexible.

But the industry has been moving towards providing itineraries for some time now.

 

[AlbertBeale]

If they are in journey planning mode they won't.

I have, and if staff are aware that the journey may involve trains marked as reservation compulsory or recommended, they are perhaps more likely to.

For example staff at Bedford last year refused to just issue tickets I asked for and instead insisted on planning the journey and then offering me tickets accordingly.


More the other day round in some cases; I've been refused sales many times in the past by people.

I am glad that these days such interactions can generally be avoided.

It makes no difference to the validity.

Yes, some people don't realise their tickets are flexible.

But the industry has been moving towards providing itineraries for some time now.

Is that because they think it's helpful? I'd find it very unhelpful!

Or do they have other motives?