Query on lost Avanti ticket

[RobWare1]

Hi everyone,

I bought a return ticket through the work travel agent for Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston. Unfortunately, the return ticket seems to have got lost somewhere and was not in my wallet when I arrived at Euston Station this evening. I have a receipt in my emails. Unfortunately the travel agent only provided tickets on collection at Piccadilly.

Avanti told me that I needed to get another ticket. This cost £76. The fact I had an email receipt counted for nothing. This was because they could not have substantiate if the ticket was really lost. Unfortunately I can't prove I lost the ticket if it is lost. They say that this is the case for all train companies and they are just following the rules.

Is this correct? It seems very inefficient if so, and I can't see it applying in any other industry (eg hospitality). This is not the first poor experience with Avanti and it is really putting me off travelling by train.

Apologies for any typos. Am writing on my phone.

 

[signed]

Is this correct?

Yes it is, a paper ticket once lost is lost, they are fully non-tracable

This is not the first poor experience with Avanti

Avanti are following the rules for once

it is really putting me off travelling by train.

Get e-tickets whenever you can, and you will have very little problem

 

[transportphoto]

Absolutely correct, I’m afraid.

When buying a ticket, you agree to a set of terms and conditions known as the “National Rail Conditions of Travel”. To quote two paragraphs:

4.1 Your Ticket is evidence of your entitlement to travel on the National Rail Network, as allowed by the type of Ticket you have purchased. It is your responsibility to keep it safe and it should be looked after with care.

4.5 If you lose or mislay a Ticket or it is stolen, it will only be replaced or (subject to the specific conditions associated with the Ticket) refunded provided that the original Ticket can be cancelled. In such cases you should apply to the Train Company or Licensed Retailer from where it was purchased.

Given they have no way to cancel the original ticket, the refund is not possible.

Paper tickets are like cash. If you’ve lost it, it’s gone.

Source: https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

 

[RobWare1]

Yes it is, a paper ticket once lost is lost, they are fully non-tracable


Avanti are following the rules for once



Get e-tickets whenever you can, and you will have very little problem

I don't think I can get e-tickets. The tickets were purchased through a travel agent.

 

[jfollows]

Not saying that you did, but you could have given your ticket to someone else who then used it. Having proof of purchase such as a receipt doesn’t help here.

 

[signed]

The tickets were purchased through a travel agent.

Travel agents can retail e-ticket like any other retailer, whether they want to is another thing.

This is assuming your ticket was from Manchester to London Euston, if your ticket was to a Zone (like London Underground Zone 1-6) or cross london then it's paper only

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

I bought a return ticket through the work travel agent for Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston. Unfortunately, the return ticket seems to have got lost somewhere and was not in my wallet when I arrived at Euston Station this evening. I have a receipt in my emails. Unfortunately the travel agent only provided tickets on collection at Piccadilly.

Avanti told me that I needed to get another ticket. This cost £76. The fact I had an email receipt counted for nothing. This was because they could not have substantiate if the ticket was really lost. Unfortunately I can't prove I lost the ticket if it is lost. They say that this is the case for all train companies and they are just following the rules.

Is this correct? It seems very inefficient if so, and I can't see it applying in any other industry (eg hospitality). This is not the first poor experience with Avanti and it is really putting me off travelling by train.

Apologies for any typos. Am writing on my phone.

This is indeed correct iirc. Sorry to bear bad news.

For example what is there to stop you giving that ticket to someone else and then you getting another one for free by showing your receipt.

If you loose a ticket it’s like loosing a £10 note I’m afraid.

However by getting a new ticket before boarding it will have been almost far cheaper than had you found it was lost after getting on the train.

Maybe you able to refunds the unused one if you subsequently find it.

If you persuade your work ticket issuer to issue e tickets then you can always print another one or retrieve it electronically so long as you have a charged device with you.

 

[RobWare1]

Absolutely correct, I’m afraid.

When buying a ticket, you agree to a set of terms and conditions known as the “National Rail Conditions of Travel”. To quote two paragraphs:



Given they have no way to cancel the original ticket, the refund is not possible.

Paper tickets are like cash. If you’ve lost it, it’s gone.

Source: https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

Thanks. Is this likely to change in the future? It seems very passenger-unfriendly. Trains are great, but money is better; especially as I don't earn as much as I'd like.

 

[signed]

Is this likely to change in the future?

Yes, Paper Tickets are on the death way except on TfL and Merseyrail. E-tickets or Smartcard tickets are the way which you can most of the time recover

 

[jfollows]

Thanks. Is this likely to change in the future? It seems very passenger-unfriendly. Trains are great, but money is better; especially as I don't earn as much as I'd like.

It’s your work travel agent you need to change, the railway already has a perfectly good e-ticket system.

 

[furlong]

A lost ticket - same as losing a bank note. You just have to get another and write off the loss.

But first establish that it was definitely printed. (Make sure the return didn't need collecting with a different code that you didn't realise you had to use as well.)

Assuming it was printed, all you can do is hope someone found it and handed it in.

Are you sure you collected it? If you left it in the ticket machine tray, which is not uncommon, there's a chance that someone kindly handed it in to staff at the station, so there's no harm in asking at the station whether that happened. You might be lucky.

 

[43066]

Thanks. Is this likely to change in the future? It seems very passenger-unfriendly. Trains are great, but money is better; especially as I don't earn as much as I'd like.

If you lost a £10 note it would be the same.

The biggest and most useful change, that has always happened, is the ability to buy online tickets, which cannot be lost. Eventually paper tickets will die out.

 

[RobWare1]

Not saying that you did, but you could have given your ticket to someone else who then used it. Having proof of purchase such as a receipt doesn’t help here.

I didn't. And i suppose they could have checked the reserved seat. (E59 on the 7.33 to Manchester)

The annoying thing is that I had a previous open return which wasn't checked two weeks ago (the barriers were open) that was still within its usability window. I just didn't use it out of basic honesty.

 

[signed]

And i suppose they could have checked the reserved seat. (E59 on the 7.33 to Manchester)

No, they couldn't, anyone can get a reserved seat even without a ticket

A paper ticket is totally anonymous, unlike in other countries like France or Italy for example

 

[jfollows]

I didn't. And i suppose they could have checked the reserved seat. (E59 on the 7.33 to Manchester)

The annoying thing is that I had a previous open return which wasn't checked two weeks ago (the barriers were open) that was still within its usability window. I just didn't use it out of basic honesty.

Seat reservations aren’t mandatory for all tickets and in any case often aren’t ‘enforced’, especially when a train isn’t busy. Why force people to change seats when there’s clearly no need?

We’re just being honest with you rather than giving the answers you want to hear!

And, yes, in the past I have re-used open return tickets myself. But now that tickets get scanned, don’t do it indeed.

 

[RobWare1]

Thanks for the clarifications everyone. It's good to see the reasoning. Even though I'm probably going to be using other modes of transportation for a bit.

Also, if anyone from Avanti Customer Service looks at this, please ask your staff to get names right when chatting to people on Twitter and avoid twee emoji. It's not what you want to deal with when you've lost a day's wages.

 

[tram21]

Even though I'm probably going to be using other modes of transportation for a bit.

I'm a little confused at your reasoning here, does your workplace pay for your travel? If so, wouldn't you want to just get the best and most efficient mode of transport for you which for your journey would almost always be the train. Surely you can either a) ask them to buy you E-tickets, avoiding the problem or b) make sure you don't lose another ticket, which you probably wouldn't do given you will be more careful I'd imagine.

If your work doesn't pay, then can't you buy the tickets yourself? Then you'll be totally in control and save lots of money using split ticketing such as using the booking engine on this website.

 

[RobWare1]

I'm a little confused at your reasoning here, does your workplace pay for your travel? If so, wouldn't you want to just get the best and most efficient mode of transport for you which for your journey would almost always be the train. Surely you can either a) ask them to buy you E-tickets, avoiding the problem or b) make sure you don't lose another ticket, which you probably wouldn't do given you will be more careful I'd imagine.

If your work doesn't pay, then can't you buy the tickets yourself? Then you'll be totally in control and save lots of money using split ticketing such as using the booking engine on this website.

Sadly not. The travel agent is rather poor, and I have to use them to get the tickets paid for.

My preference is to avoid Avanti for a bit when I can, certainly when paying for my ticket. I don't want to go for deals with split ticketing. I just want to go from a to b with a minimum of fuss and hassle for a reasonable price. And where the ticket is easily retrievable.

Maybe things will change when I can see the scenery in the late afternoon, but I recognise why a lot of branding is based on how people feel. Avanti may be following the law here, but I just don't want to use them anymore. They are usually late, have a "pass the buck" attitude and are just too expensive. I'm just done.

Anyway, complaint over.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@RobWare1. It's not just an Avanti thing. If you'd lost paper tickets valid for travel with any other rail operator, you'd almost certainly still also have had to pay again.

 

[RobWare1]

It's not

@RobWare1. It's not just an Avanti thing. If you'd lost paper tickets valid for travel with any other rail operator, you'd almost certainly still also have had to pay again.

It's not just this. It's other experiences of Avanti too. However, I recognise this aspect so will be avoiding trains I'm the near to mid future unless I absolutely have to for work.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Thanks. Is this likely to change in the future? It seems very passenger-unfriendly. Trains are great, but money is better; especially as I don't earn as much as I'd like.

It's up to you to keep a hold on your ticket. I'm not just fingerwagging here; I'm speaking from experience of trying to show my receipt as proof of purchase and still being charged £50. But it comes under the heading of 'expensive mistake', which we all make from time to time even in the most straitened of circumstances. (Throwing up in a taxi is a similar situation -- you don't plan to cause the driver hassle in getting his cab cleaned and thus off the road for the remainder of the day, but because he's been inconvenienced by something you did, you have to fork out for the damage.)

In my lost ticket case, I really couldn't pay and a very kind stranger helped me out (possibly because even in my late 20s I looked like a teenager; I still read young but at least I don't get carded in pubs any more). But there have to be some rules here that underpin the need to have a ticket that you can show to prove a right to travel.

The comparison with hospitality or other forms of transport is problematic because they have a booking registered in your name and only let you on the plane or into the hotel room on production of the reference that's tied to your pre-payment. They also have very limited seats or rooms so they need to tie a person to a booking. That then gives you the relative flexibility of being able to carry the reference number and collect the ticket or get into the room.

Trains are not limited in this matter and, while many stations are barriered so you need a ticket to get onto the platform side, you can just get any train that's leaving from any accessible platform. (Which is probably why stations like Paddington and Waterloo have barriers only leading to one platform so they can limit your freedom to jump on any old train, but I digress.) In many cases even at some large hub stations, you can jump on any train even without having to feed your ticket through a machine.

So access to the service on the railways has to be proven in a way that is limited to one person -- a paper ticket or an e-ticket which can be encoded as used when it's scanned -- rather than can be duplicated like an email receipt (which aren't scanned in the same way as e-tickets and thus are reproducible so a lot of people could travel on the same 'ticket' if all you had to do was show the receipt). That way the system can know that you paid for one single journey and didn't just pay for one and then pass out the freely reproducible email to others.

Customer friendliness comes at a cost -- the vendor or service provider has to be able to keep tabs on who has actually paid and who hasn't. It's not friendly to other customers if we pay for our legitimate tickets and take care with them and then swallow the cost of a mistake proactively that you then face no issue if you are careless and lose yours.

And as I said I've been here a few times with train tickets and other valuables so I'm right there with you at the annoyance of it all. But... ultimately it's your responsibility even if it's not your fault.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks. Is this likely to change in the future? It seems very passenger-unfriendly. Trains are great, but money is better; especially as I don't earn as much as I'd like.

For paper tickets? No. Britain is allergic to the requirement to carry or show ID so if you choose a paper ticket it is effectively like a banknote - only worth anything to the person who holds it.

This is the same for any train ticket in Britain, and is not an Avanti policy; it's also been the case since the railways first began.