Questions regarding starting short

[Llandudno]

Could you could board a southbound train at Oxenholme with a Penrith ticket if the train had not previously called at Penrith?

 

[jfollows]

Could you could board a southbound train at Oxenholme with a Penrith ticket if the train had not previously called at Penrith?

Yes
See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...1-ticket-types-conditions.70018/#post-1179615, for example. “starting short”.
(Note that the original question is now in a separate thread but referred to the return half of an off-peak return London-Penrith)

 

[Llandudno]

Yes
See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...1-ticket-types-conditions.70018/#post-1179615, for example. “starting short”.

Interesting, but aren’t there some examples were it’s cheaper to travel from a station further away?

I have heard that it can be cheaper from the likes of Lancaster to London rather than Preston to London, so could you buy a Lancaster to London ticket and board a train at Preston that hasn’t previously called at Lancaster?

I guess there must be similar examples across the network?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, but aren’t there some examples were it’s cheaper to travel from a station further away?

I have heard that it can be cheaper from the likes of Lancaster to London rather than Preston to London, so could you buy a Lancaster to London ticket and board a train at Preston that hasn’t previously called at Lancaster?

I guess there must be similar examples across the network?

This is only not allowed on tickets where Break of Journey is explicitly disallowed, and only on the outward journey. Funnily enough it is on that example!

Even if it is on the OP's ticket it wouldn't be enforced in that case as it wouldn't avoid a fare.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting, but aren’t there some examples were it’s cheaper to travel from a station further away?

Yes

I have heard that it can be cheaper from the likes of Lancaster to London rather than Preston to London, so could you buy a Lancaster to London ticket and board a train at Preston that hasn’t previously called at Lancaster?

You may board a train at Preston that hadn't called at Lancaster (indeed some itineraries require a change at Preston), but you are not permitted to start your journey at Preston on a Lancaster to London Terminals SVR :

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=EUS&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

Break of journey is not permitted on the Outward journey, except to change trains.

The "except to change trains" part is nonsensical as a change of trains is not a break of journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may board a train at Preston that hadn't called at Lancaster (indeed some itineraries require a change at Preston), but you are not permitted to start your journey at Preston on a Lancaster to London Terminals SVR :

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=EUS&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

Though to be fair nobody will care if you do unless you do so at a time a Preston-Euston SVR would not have been valid. Preston is not gated, though special checks are I believe often done to catch people out doing it to avoid Anytime fares.

 

[yorkie]

Though to be fair nobody will care if you do unless you do so at a time a Preston-Euston SVR would not have been valid. Preston is not gated, though special checks are I believe often done to catch people out doing it to avoid Anytime fares.

Would be very difficult to catch people; the only way I can think of to do it definitively would be to check all tickets on entry at Lancaster by putting in a revenue block there, and ensuring all e-tickets are scanned and paper tickets have some sort of special symbol inked onto them. Then block all the multiple entry points to the relevant platform(s) at Preston and ensure tickets have the relevant scans/inks on them.

Far easier for the company to just make false accusations against passengers and hope that they don't protest too much:

Company director wrongly arrested for using train fare loophole

Steve Morrissey, from Blackpool, would usually travel London from Preston but he can save almost £260 on his return by getting on at Lancaster - even though it is 25 miles further away.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Officers quizzed Mr Morrissey, from Blackpool, for more than 30 minutes until he was freed without charge after Virgin officials checked CCTV cameras and established he had in fact got on at Lancaster and had a valid ticket.

Incidentally the guard was not actually a "jobsworth"; a jobsworth is someone who does the job to the letter but without common sense. This guard did the job incorrectly, while also failing to apply common sense, making them far worse than that. However I would be surprised if appropriate action was taken and it wouldn't surprise me if the same guard is still behaving this way. I doubt Avanti have put in place the safeguards that Virgin before them lacked.

In any other industry, such behaviour wouldn't be tolerated.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Would be very difficult to catch people

Indeed, southbound there would need to be some irrefutable way that the holder of a 3A restricted ticket travelling on a 2C restricted train can be shown to have not started their journey at the origin or that they had started it elsewhere.

Would marking all 3A restricted tickets on entry to Lancaster be sufficient, though? Someone using a, say, Arnside to Lancaster season in conjunction with the Off Peak ticket from Lancaster would be doing so legitimately but simply changing trains at Lancaster. Presumably their ticket would not be revenue blocked/marked and therefore deemed invalid from Preston if checked on one of the 2C restricted trains.

Not forgetting that an Off Peak ticket from Arnside to London, via Lancaster, itself has restriction 3A. Once tickets from Lancaster have been revenue blocked/marked there to close that potential loophole, would Avanti have to do the same at Arnside, etc, etc?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, southbound there would need to be some irrefutable way that the holder of a 3A restricted ticket travelling on a 2C restricted train can be shown to have not started their journey at the origin or that they had started it elsewhere.

Would marking all 3A restricted tickets on entry to Lancaster be sufficient, though? Someone using a, say, Arnside to Lancaster season in conjunction with the Off Peak ticket from Lancaster would be doing so legitimately but simply changing trains at Lancaster. Presumably their ticket would not be revenue blocked/marked and therefore deemed invalid from Preston if checked on one of the 2C restricted trains.

Not forgetting that an Off Peak ticket from Arnside to London, via Lancaster, itself has restriction 3A. Once tickets from Lancaster have been revenue blocked/marked there to close that potential loophole, would Avanti have to do the same at Arnside, etc, etc?

The way I've heard of it being done is to block the entrances to Platforms 3 and 4 at Preston on the ramp and on entrance to the subway. That would catch the vast majority of people boarding at Preston. Someone who did come from say Arnside changing at Preston (most would change at Lancaster, though, so as to have more chance of a seat) would presumably be asked "how did you get here?" which would bring a sensible answer to those who had arrived by train (e.g. "I just got off the Manchester") and an "umm, er, ah" answer from those who hadn't.

It's not 100%, but it's enough of a threat to stop most people doing it, particularly given that the "penalty" - an excess to the Anytime - is rather hefty.

If you're going to do it, the easiest way to do it is to buzz up to Lancaster and back, or if driving to the station simply drive to Lancaster. That's totally legit. On the way back there's no restriction so you can happily get off at Preston if you want.

Catching it at Manchester Pic (the other place it'd be worthwhile) would be a bit easier because they could just do a block on 13-14 before the bridge and mark/scan tickets accordingly. Though you'd get away with it if you arrived there from somewhere else.

In the end you just need to catch most people so there's a threat of being hit with the Anytime.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Someone who did come from say Arnside changing at Preston (most would change at Lancaster, though, so as to have more chance of a seat) would presumably be asked "how did you get here?" which would bring a sensible answer to those who had arrived by train

The approach is to catch the unsophisticated chancers of which there will be no shortage. Those who want to start short there and are aware of the block tactic at Preston will also have an answer ready. The difficult challenge for the revenue staff is showing that the passenger didn't start their journey at the ticket origin. Simply making one's way from elsewhere on the station onto platform 3/4 at Preston is not positive proof of that negative. To reliably prevent starting short there, using a ticket which does not permit it, the block at Preston would need to be on the entrances to the station.

Catching it at Manchester Pic (the other place it'd be worthwhile) would be a bit easier because they could just do a block on 13-14 before the bridge and mark/scan tickets accordingly. Though you'd get away with it if you arrived there from somewhere else.

I'm not sure it would be easier but I'm wary of making the thread into an instruction manual for the determined to invalidly use the 3A tickets so will leave it at that.

 

[Haywain]

Simply making one's way from elsewhere on the station onto platform 3/4 at Preston is not positive proof of that negative.

It's fairly clear in that case that they haven't come from a relevant station, unless such a train has just/recently arrived.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

It's fairly clear in that case that they haven't come from a relevant station, unless such a train has just/recently arrived.

I wouldn't disagree. But, as far as you can trust the Mail's reporting of it, the guard in the linked article appeared more than "fairly clear" that the passenger hadn't come from the relevant station, so must have boarded the train at Preston. He was sure enough that despite the passenger's denials he had them detained.

Except that the passenger had started their journey at Lancaster, as CCTV later showed.

Doesn't a revenue block or ticket inspector need to be significantly more than "fairly clear" the passenger is breaching the break of journey restriction if they are going to prevent boarding or demand another ticket is purchased?

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't disagree. But, as far as you can trust the Mail's reporting of it, the guard in the linked article appeared more than "fairly clear" that the passenger hadn't come from the relevant station, so must have boarded the train at Preston. He was sure enough that despite the passenger's denials he had them detained.#

Boarding at Preston is allowed; it's starting the journey there that would be barred (though if the train had called at LAN then unless there were cancellations, changing at Preston would raise eyebrows)

Except that the passenger had started their journey at Lancaster, as CCTV later showed.

Doesn't a revenue block or ticket inspector need to be significantly more than "fairly clear" the passenger is breaching the break of journey restriction if they are going to prevent boarding or demand another ticket is purchased?

Some rail staff have a habit of making false allegations and I've not seen any evidence that TOCs have sufficient safeguards in place to ensure staff are "significantly more than "fairly clear" the passenger is breaching the break of journey restriction" before making accusations.

The problem is endemic in the industry and I see no sign of this changing any time soon, sadly.