Rail-replacement buses non-existent - Bournemouth-Southampton to-day.

[Dougal2345]

The lines between Poole and Southampton Central are closed this weekend for engineering works.

Unfortunately the smaller stops are not being served at all by rail-replacement buses:

https://www.southwesternrailway.com...disruption-to-services-on-woe-and-south-coast

Due to a nationwide shortage of bus drivers, rail replacement bus services will be much less frequent than originally planned on Saturday 15 and Sunday 16 October with less overall capacity. This means that some stations will not be served or will have a more limited service, and there may be long gaps between buses at some stations.

Bournemouth Main Line:

On Saturday, engineering works will close the line between Bournemouth and Southampton. On Sunday, these works will be extended and will close the line between Bournemouth and Eastleigh. The line between Southampton and Fareham via Netley will also be closed.
On Saturday, due to a shortage of buses, SWR cannot confirm that all rail replacement services will run on Saturday. Services that do run are likely to be busy and customers should allow extra time for their journey.
On Saturday, there will be no rail replacement buses serving Pokesdown, Christchurch, and Hinton Admiral stations. Local bus services to Bournemouth or New Milton stations can be used to connect with rail replacement buses to Southampton but they will not necessarily stop at the stations themselves. Unfortunately, SWR tickets will not be accepted on these local bus services. You can find where local bus services are available here.
On Sunday, between Bournemouth and Southampton, a skeleton bus service will be in operation and may be very busy. Customers are urged to only travel if absolutely necessary and if they have to travel, please allow extra time for their journeys.
On Sunday, there will be no rail replacement buses between Southampton Central and Fareham via Netley, but there will be a normal train service between Eastleigh and Fareham via Hedge End.
A minibus shuttle will connect Sway to Brockenhurst to connect with other rail replacement bus services.

It's a bit vexing - having been 'trapped' in my village by the strikes the past two Saturdays, I was looking forward to a trip to-day - but after waiting half an hour for a bus at around 9 and trying again at around 11 (the one around 10 was showing as cancelled on Live Departure Boards), neither of which turned up, I headed home and put in for a ticket refund...

 

[zwk500]

The lines between Poole and Southampton Central are closed this weekend for engineering works.

Unfortunately the smaller stops are not being served at all by rail-replacement buses:

https://www.southwesternrailway.com...disruption-to-services-on-woe-and-south-coast



It's a bit vexing - having been 'trapped' in my village by the strikes the past two Saturdays, I was looking forward to a trip to-day - but after waiting half an hour for a bus at around 9 and trying again at around 11 (the one around 10 was showing as cancelled on Live Departure Boards), neither of which turned up, I headed home and put in for a ticket refund...

It's a poor service but the lack of Bus drivers is a problem that is beyond SWR's control.

 

[Watershed]

It's a poor service but the lack of Bus drivers is a problem that is beyond SWR's control.

The nationwide shortage of bus drivers isn't SWR's fault, but as in any tight labour market - people follow the money. They absolutely could get buses if they paid enough - but like most TOCs they have a set price they'll pay, and if nobody wants the work at that price it simply won't be covered.

It's also one thing to say there won't be ticket acceptance on local buses (the operator may be unwilling to enter into an agreement), but they should make it 100% clear that they'll be reimbursing people's "service bus" fares - or taxis, where there are no service buses - where rail replacement buses fail to turn up.

 

[zwk500]

The nationwide shortage of bus drivers isn't SWR's fault, but as in any tight labour market - people follow the money. They absolutely could get buses if they paid enough - but like most TOCs they have a set price they'll pay, and if nobody wants the work at that price it simply won't be covered.

The issue is that SWR on their own couldn't offer the money to do it, they don't have the volume of work required to keep people in the job. It'd need the local bus/coach operators to be offering the money to keep qualified drivers in the area and available. There's only so far people will travel for a weekend's work.

It's also one thing to say there won't be ticket acceptance on local buses (the operator may be unwilling to enter into an agreement), but they should make it 100% clear that they'll be reimbursing people's "service bus" fares - or taxis, where there are no service buses - where rail replacement buses fail to turn up.

On this I agree. If you can't provide an alternative service you should be required to offer a reasonable compensation for alternatives people find for themselves.

 

[nw1]

I am glad I took a trip down to the New Forest last weekend!

 

[Dougal2345]

Back on topic though, it's nice that a shuttle bus is apparently being provided between Sway and Brockenhurst... But as it doesn't show on live departure boards, how will people in Sway know that it exists, and when to catch it....

 

[Starmill]

There's bus availability, it's just very limited and not at the kind of prices First Rail Support / Arriva Rail Replacement will usually pay.

In some places, rates have become quite extreme. There have been a number of operators offering up to £1,000 for an eight hour hire recently (bus with driver), at just a few hours notice mind. Nobody is going to take SWR's rates when they can get that instead.

 

[pjnathanail]

As an operator of quite a number of rail replacement duties every weekend it’s exceptionally frustrating to see TOCs blame lack of buses on the driver shortage. Weekend driver availability is not fixed. On jobs where the money is right, operators can enhance pay and attract staff in to work. The real reason is as said up thread, some TOCs - via their rail replacement management companies who tender for this work at often very low rates - simply say “the price is X”, and any duties not covered at X don’t get covered. This doesn’t make sense - operators shouldn’t be allowed to take the mick, but equally the way markets work different suppliers will have different rates for a range of reasons - TOCs not willing to pay the new going rate in a supplier-led market is the reason for the failure to supply buses here.

 

[zwk500]

As an operator of quite a number of rail replacement duties every weekend it’s exceptionally frustrating to see TOCs blame lack of buses on the driver shortage. Weekend driver availability is not fixed. On jobs where the money is right, operators can enhance pay and attract staff in to work. The real reason is as said up thread, some TOCs - via their rail replacement management companies who tender for this work at often very low rates - simply say “the price is X”, and any duties not covered at X don’t get covered. This doesn’t make sense - operators shouldn’t be allowed to take the mick, but equally the way markets work different suppliers will have different rates for a range of reasons - TOCs not willing to pay the new going rate in a supplier-led market is the reason for the failure to supply buses here.

As mentioned above, do bear in mind that the DfT has a hand in what 'X' is at many, if not all, TOCs.

 

[Watershed]

As mentioned above, do bear in mind that the DfT has a hand in what 'X' is at many, if not all, TOCs.

Indeed. But it's somewhat disingenuous of SWR to cite driver shortages when the real reason is that they (and other TOCs) are unwilling, or unable if you want to look at it from a wider perspective, to pay the market rate.

 

[C96]

As an operator of quite a number of rail replacement duties every weekend it’s exceptionally frustrating to see TOCs blame lack of buses on the driver shortage. Weekend driver availability is not fixed. On jobs where the money is right, operators can enhance pay and attract staff in to work. The real reason is as said up thread, some TOCs - via their rail replacement management companies who tender for this work at often very low rates - simply say “the price is X”, and any duties not covered at X don’t get covered. This doesn’t make sense - operators shouldn’t be allowed to take the mick, but equally the way markets work different suppliers will have different rates for a range of reasons - TOCs not willing to pay the new going rate in a supplier-led market is the reason for the failure to supply buses here.

That’s a shame if true. As “x” is hardly a current market rate if this does not have adequate supply.

 

[JamieL]

The line between Southampton and Fareham via Netley will also be closed.

A little OT but does anyone know why SWR describe the route like this? Bitterne is the first station on the branch line and there are other stops before/after Netley prior to the junction with the Eastleigh to Fareham line. Just seems a little odd to cite a minor station in the middle of a branch line as a via destination.

 

[30907]

A little OT but does anyone know why SWR describe the route like this? Bitterne is the first station on the branch line and there are other stops before/after Netley prior to the junction with the Eastleigh to Fareham line. Just seems a little odd to cite a minor station in the middle of a branch line as a via destination.

Because that is the traditional description, it's halfway along the route and as their trains call at all stations there's no obvious alternative.
Swanwick gets all the Southern trains, I suppose....

 

[JamieL]

Because that is the traditional description, it's halfway along the route and as their trains call at all stations there's no obvious alternative.
Swanwick gets all the Southern trains, I suppose....

Thanks.

 

[Snow1964]

Indeed. But it's somewhat disingenuous of SWR to cite driver shortages when the real reason is that they (and other TOCs) are unwilling, or unable if you want to look at it from a wider perspective, to pay the market rate.

Actually they are citing nationwide shortage of drivers, rail replacement less frequent than originally planned.

Since the driver shortage has been around for 2-3 years, exactly how long ago did they plan a higher bus frequency, that has become a problem now

All a bit smoke and mirrors, and (as already stated) could simply be don’t want to pay higher rates. Also if going to mention a National shortage exactly how much effort did SWR make to getting buses from northern part of England and put the drivers up in hotels. My hunch is someone is telling whole truth at SWR website etc

 

[Gloster]

The traditional choice of Netley may be related to the line having been opened in two parts. St Denys-Netley opened in 1866, but the line on to Fareham was opened in 1889.

 

[londonbridge]

And

To add to the situation, as I mentioned in a previous thread concerning these works, extra people travelling in, through and around Portsmouth today for the Great South Run.

 

[Gloster]

An opinion. In the unlikely event of it being known in advance that there would be no or ridiculously few replacement buses available, pre-privatisation BR would either have cancelled the work, restricted it to what could have been done within periods when there was no passenger service or arranged Single Line Working to keep some sort of service going. Nowadays, it seems that service is a dirty word.

 

[zwk500]

An opinion. In the unlikely event of it being known in advance that there would be no or ridiculously few replacement buses available, pre-privatisation BR would either have cancelled the work, restricted it to what could have been done within periods when there was no passenger service or arranged Single Line Working to keep some sort of service going. Nowadays, it seems that service is a dirty word.

Given the disruption to works already this year from the heatwave and queen's mourning, I can understand the desire not to delay.
I can also understand that if there's ressignalling or track relaying going on, then a LBBT isn't feasible and SLW requires the 3rd rail energised which would put the track workers at risk. IIRC this section of line doesn't have bi-di of any form apart from at certain stations, so the SLW would be workload intensive for the signallers already busy managing the possession.

 

[Snow1964]

Given the disruption to works already this year from the heatwave and queen's mourning, I can understand the desire not to delay.
I can also understand that if there's ressignalling or track relaying going on, then a LBBT isn't feasible and SLW requires the 3rd rail energised which would put the track workers at risk. IIRC this section of line doesn't have bi-di of any form apart from at certain stations, so the SLW would be workload intensive for the signallers already busy managing the possession.

I grew up at New Milton on this section of line, and I remember rare occasions where a single train shuttle (normally a 4VEP) in 1980s was provided between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth. One track for both directions, one train in operation basis. Not exactly onerous on a signalman as only entered same reversing platform about every 60 minutes (not even moving any points each time). My memory is hazy but might even have been a 33 + 4TC set on occasions as presumably third rail was off. This was after the trailing crossovers at New Milton and Christchurch were removed in early 1970s, longer section than ideal, but exactly same track layout as today.

It is not clear to me why couldn't have run a single rail shuttle on single line for part of the route if didn't have enough buses for whole route.

 

[The Planner]

I grew up at New Milton on this section of line, and I remember rare occasions where a single train shuttle (normally a 4VEP) in 1980s was provided between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth. One track for both directions, one train in operation basis. Not exactly onerous on a signalman as only entered same reversing platform about every 60 minutes. My memory is hazy but might even have been a 33 + 4TC set on occasions as presumably third rail was off. This was after the trailing crossovers at New Milton and Christchurch were removed in early 1970s, longer section than ideal, but exactly same track layout as today.

It is not clear to me why couldn't have run a single rail shuttle on single line for part of the route if didn't have enough buses for whole route.

Adjacent Line Open (ALO), people won't accept the risk. Also depends on if the work required an engineering train on the other track, tilting wagons etc...

 

[30907]

It is not clear to me why couldn't have run a single rail shuttle on single line for part of the route if didn't have enough buses for whole route.

Depends where the various works are going on - to give an extreme example, a shuttle from Totton to Beaulieu Road would be little use.

 

[zwk500]

I grew up at New Milton on this section of line, and I remember rare occasions where a single train shuttle (normally a 4VEP) in 1980s was provided between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth. One track for both directions, one train in operation basis. Not exactly onerous on a signalman as only entered same reversing platform about every 60 minutes (not even moving any points each time). My memory is hazy but might even have been a 33 + 4TC set on occasions as presumably third rail was off. This was after the trailing crossovers at New Milton and Christchurch were removed in early 1970s, longer section than ideal, but exactly same track layout as today.

It is not clear to me why couldn't have run a single rail shuttle on single line for part of the route if didn't have enough buses for whole route.

I don't see how dumping people at Brockenhurst is much better, given the possession covers up to Southampton Airport Parkway.

 

[davews]

Next weekend I am down in Southampton for an event which includes a trip to Portsmouth docks by train on the Sunday. More engineering work there, and the current SWR site has RRB to Woolston and train from there. If next weekend is like next what is the chance of it happening? I notice that the info on nationalrail.co.uk/ says 'The Southampton to Portsmouth Harbour route will not run'. Maybe they know more than SWR!

 

[2192]

A little OT but does anyone know why SWR describe the route like this? Bitterne is the first station on the branch line and there are other stops before/after Netley prior to the junction with the Eastleigh to Fareham line. Just seems a little odd to cite a minor station in the middle of a branch line as a via destination.

Is it the intermediate station with the shortest name on the line? London to Bournemouth tickets used to say "via Sway" when the Ringwood line was the open. Few folk knew where Sway was.

 

[Horizon22]

An ongoing industry problem - TOCs are continuing to find buses almost impossible to source at both a) short notice during disruption and b) for planned engineering works. Bus companies in the area are unable to provide the staffing needed to run additional and are focussing on their core work. They often don't tell the TOC until about 24h beforehand on % of resources avalilable which doesn't give much opportunity to plan. And on Sundays, the regular bus provision is probably reduced already so net benefit is a loss for everyone. There's some element of cost in it as well in the going rate, but as per everything to do with £££ on the railway at the moment, the long arm of the DfT blunders in.

It has been discussed previously here (for SWR) and here. Doesn't look like a quick fix considering its been going on for almost over a year.

 

[James H]

SWR have tweeted that passengers can reclaim taxi and bus fares:
https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/1581575707926618112

Due to replacement transport issues in the Bournemouth & Southampton areas, customers due to travel on replacement buses in these areas have been authorised to source transport such as taxis or use local buses and claim the cost of this back through our customer service team

 

[Horizon22]

SWR have tweeted that passengers can reclaim taxi and bus fares:
https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/1581575707926618112

SWR are to be fair, actually quite good at this sort of thing and making in explicit when compared to other TOCs.

 

[Dougal2345]

Sorry, if I'd seen that previous thread I'd've posted in there rather than starting this new one.

Question though - as a layman, it seems surprising that 35 miles of track (SOU-POO) needs to be closed all day for engineering works. How many actual work sites would have been spread out along that 35 miles, out of interest?

When works are being planned, is there any incentive for Network Rail to, say, try and focus their work in a particular area (say, Southampton one weekend, Brockenhurst the next, Poole the next) and thus minimise disruption and bus use, or is it no skin off their nose to ask for all three at once and spread out small teams in various places?

Looking at the SWML through the New Forest (where I live so, selfishly, my area of interest) there are more works planned on the next three weekends - I hope a better fist of things is made arranging alternative transport than was managed this weekend:

Sun 23 - Soton - Poole
Sat 29 - Eastleigh - Soton
Sun 30 - Soton - Brock
Sat 5 - Brock-Poole
Sun 6 - Soton-Poole

 

[zwk500]

When works are being planned, is there any incentive for Network Rail to, say, try and focus their work in a particular area (say, Southampton one weekend, Brockenhurst the next, Poole the next) and thus minimise disruption and bus use, or is it no skin off their nose to ask for all three at once and spread out small teams in various places?

NR have to pay compensation to operators when the track is not available, so it's very much in their interest to close the railway for the least amount of time and distance possible. The exact nature and amount of work will determine what the exact strategy used is.