Rail strikes discussion

[duncanp]

Why do "supporters of the left" keep harping on about the Telegraph and the Mail. Is there nothing worthwhile for them to praise in the newspapers of their own beliefs that they can enthuse about? If so, this is a very sad state of affairs.

Does anyone remember the column "Live letters, conducted by the Old Codgers" that was once a regular feature in the Daily Mirror?

Indeed.

This article in The Telegraph from 2 days ago is quite critical of the role of the government and railway management in these strikes

These are the real villains behind today's train strikes

The narrative is always the same: bad strikers disrupting the lives of people as if ordinary people are not workers themselves

www.telegraph.co.uk

These are the real villains behind today's train strikes​

The narrative is always the same: bad strikers disrupting the lives of people as if ordinary people are not workers themselves

Collective is a strange word, isn’t it, one usually associated with the Left but Simon Clarke, chief secretary to the Treasury, who is being wheeled out to face down the pay demands of the RMT, likes using it. Workers need “collective discipline”, he said. In another interview, “We’re going to have to show collective society-wide responsibility.”

I am not sure who the “we” is here as it certainly is not his boss, Rishi Sunak, the richest man in government, or the Prime Minister and his wife, ever sniffing around for donations, or even MPs who never refuse pay rises.

No, “we” means the average working person who wants wage increases to match their ever-spiralling costs. This demand, that ordinary folk maintain their basic standard of living, is being spun as the cause of inflation.

Are we collectively to suck this up? Don’t mention Brexit, the war, the pandemic, food banks, stripped-down public services because of austerity. No, just do your two minutes of hate towards Bob Crow Mark Two – Mick Lynch – and go on about overpaid drivers, though this strike is about all rail workers whose average salary is £31,000

Try not to know that the top 10 highest paid people at Network Rail get a total of more than £3.5 million a year while that company advertised for station control assistants on £20,000.

It’s going to be hard because this week will be one of individual frustration and misery. We will all become victims, as kids can’t take their exams and essential workers can’t get to work. My daughter is due to give birth. It’s the worst week for this to happen. Travel chaos is already everywhere. And isn’t this all going to set off another round of strikes: teachers, NHS workers, postmen – and barristers who actually are protesting about cuts to legal aid?

This will wear us down but no amount of Tory buck-passing is fair. This government has been in power a long time. The brokenness of this country cannot be blamed on a party that is not in government, despite the best efforts of Johnson rambling on about Corbyn.

The narrative is always the same: bad strikers disrupting the lives of people as if ordinary people are not workers themselves, as if working conditions have not improved precisely because of unions or “collective bargaining”. None of this meant much to me until I worked in the US, in low-paid shop jobs and as a waitress. I had done those jobs here, but got a lunch break; you were not “fined” for being late. Normal people in normal jobs got paid holiday, sick pay and some maternity leave.

How do you think much of what we take for granted came about? Through the power of organised labour.

I guess I had a glimpse of the future there, of zero hours contracts and no rights. It will be really hard to remember that this week in sweltering weather when I can’t get to where I need to be and we have to hear about the horrors of those Camillas who can’t get to Glasto.

Instead of looking back to the 1970s and 1980s, why not cast your mind back two years. Didn’t the pandemic show us exactly who kept the country going? Transport workers of all kinds, nurses, teachers, care workers and delivery drivers.

Have we forgotten the bus drivers who died in the first wave of Covid already? Are these the folk who must be made poorer year by year? Whatever happened to “levelling up”? Look to the top of government to see greed and wealth, a complete absence of any moral compass and a refusal to contemplate life for many. Obviously, I am dreading the strikes but they simply mirror this trickle-down chaos. There is no policy – just desperate, scrabbling self-preservation.

The government can demonise the RMT, refuse to talk to it and hope that public sympathy drains away. Yet, begrudgingly, we know this union is effective as sympathy does not pay wages. The Department for Transport is choosing not to get involved even though it set the rules for the train operating companies. It is refusing to negotiate, yet during the pandemic it bailed out these companies with huge subsidies and these companies now make at least £5 million a year in profit. Private profit has been preserved, while all risks have been nationalised.

Remember that in this week’s blame game. This disruption didn’t have to happen. The government is not neutral here.

Remember that when you don’t feel safe in a station because there are no staff around. Remember that when you keep being told it is somehow up to you as an individual to cope with inflation. Think collectively about what really matters.

Strikes are a real pain but at least see them for what they are: an organised response to organised greed.

 

[Walter Whigham]

Who is the "financial power behind the throne" holding on to the Merseyrail purse strings?

The Chief Dissembler of the Daily Fail, a.k.a its Political Editor, is laying the blame for the 7.1% increase at the door of "Labour-controlled Merseyrail". He justified this on the grounds that the operator is overseen by Labour metro mayor, Steve Rotheram. This tawdry rag goes on to claim that Grant Shapps has distanced himself from the settlement, in which he has had "no say".

What Boris Johnson feels about the settlement is unknown as he has swanned off to Rwanda for the Commonwealth Conference, no doubt hoping to make himself look statesmanlike.

 

[windingroad]

Why do "supporters of the left" keep harping on about the Telegraph and the Mail. Is there nothing worthwhile for them to praise in the newspapers of their own beliefs that they can enthuse about? If so, this is a very sad state of affairs.

What a strange thing to say. My identity isn't defined by which newspapers I do or do not read, so I see no reason to "enthuse" about any of them. If my criticism of the Telegraph (or the Daily Mail) offends you, I would suggest it does so because you've aligned yourself with those newspapers and are taking it personally.

 

[Philip]

Why? The power of our union is such that there are plans for staff members that are willing to transition into the new multi functional roles. If there was not a union, these TOCs would dump you without hesitation like we see in so many more sectors. Secondly, you are striking to protect your pay, pension and other working practices...I really don’t understand your way of thinking

The plan has already been decided for ticket offices with the closure of them and new station role they've created. I'm not sure how striking will change things with that - it'll be either accept the pay rise on offer along with the changes to the role and T&Cs, or take the voluntary redundancy on offer.

What is the risk of agency staff filling in for railway-employed booking office clerks on strike, with those striking staff coming into work the next day to be told "we don't need you, we have this agency worker doing your job instead"?

 

[Shrop]

The state pension is the bare minimum so 10% on the bare minimum isn't a lot.

I think the state pension needs a wholesale review. As I understand it, people on huge employment pensions also get the state pension, so long as they've made their NI payments. But a good friend of mine has been a builder all his life, he would do any jobs for anyone and has never been motivated by money, however he doesn't have anything other than his state pension once he retires, because he has spent his life just wanting to help people, and only take minimal payments from them. So if he gets a grand total of £10k to live on from when he retires next year and nothing else, I won't begrudge him a penny. Meanwhile other people I know are tight, self centred, but on a £40k pension already after a well paid career, yet they will also get the state pension.
As I say, it needs a review, and at least some degree of means testing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

All you are doing is illustrating the point WBB

And you are proving mine. You seem to be trying to claim that everything said by the Tory media or the government that could be seen as "dodgy" is simply a mistake or is just simple ignorance. That is being pretty naive in my eyes, especially when the government have been doing the literal same thing over the last few years with Brexit, partygate, the Rwanda policy and loads of other situations too. Deliberately muddying the waters, trying to spread confusion and FUD and down right lying are basically how this government operates now and to assume that it isn't doing the same here is being pretty damn blind.

I am not sure what lies have been told around who signs off pay rises. Perhaps you can elaborate.

The fact is that it is the government who essentially control railway funding and spending now. So the government trying to say its upto the employers to agree pay deals is fundamentally incorrect when the employers can't agree anything without the government signing it off too. Based on what has been said it sounds like some ToC's are essentially happy to meet in the middle with workers but the government is refusing to allow them to.

drivers wages for instance have been quoted by the Tory press but that is journalistic ignorance

Is it really just ignorance though? I think you are being pretty generous if you think it is just that rather than a specific attempt to muddy the waters.

MPs can and do quote on things they know nothing about

Again I think you are being pretty naive if you think the MP's and the press banging on about automation don't know a significant amount of it is already used.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The members involved in the pay deal include Merseyrail station retailers, customer relations assistants, lead revenue protection officers, train crew admin assistants, driver managers, guards standards managers, station managers, service production managers, resource controllers, train service delivery managers and staff in fleet, safety, finance, HR, IT and transformation.

Merseyrail staff vote to accept 7.1% pay deal

Union boss says new agreement shows government are blocking routes to end other rail worker disputes

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

So not signallers or guards then... or is Merseyrail DOO?

 

[Mintona]

Cut out sugar, beer, junk. Drink plenty of water, clean diet, 5 a day. Exercise; could just be circuit training at home 45 - 60 minutes a few times a week. You will stop wishing yourself into a golden oldie and become mentally stronger.

I'm not perfect but I'm trying to stick to the above and it keeps me calmer, focused and in a good mood. If you want any advice just ask mate.

As for the strike, I'm all for the little people
So solidarity from me. I hope more and more workers, in all fields, especially in low paid jobs become unionised. A counter balance is urgently required to this current inhumane regime in charge!

Thanks. I don’t drink beer, I only drink water, I regularly get five a day, and I ran a marathon last month and have another in September. Sure I eat some stuff that’s not so good but apart from that I’m pretty good at looking after myself I think.

 

[Starmill]

So not signallers or guards then... or is Merseyrail DOO?

They currently have guards who are moving to a new role as train managers. Signallers don't work for Merseyrail as far as I know? Sandhills signallers probably could do though. I understand that's similar to what happens on Island Line.

 

[duncanp]

I think the state pension needs a wholesale review. As I understand it, people on huge employment pensions also get the state pension, so long as they've made their NI payments. But a good friend of mine has been a builder all his life, he would do any jobs for anyone and has never been motivated by money, however he doesn't have anything other than his state pension once he retires, because he has spent his life just wanting to help people, and only take minimal payments from them. So if he gets a grand total of £10k to live on from when he retires next year and nothing else, I won't begrudge him a penny. Meanwhile other people I know are tight, self centred, but on a £40k pension already after a well paid career, yet they will also get the state pension.
As I say, it needs a review, and at least some degree of means testing.

People who are on a pension of £40,0000 per year from their employment, and who also get the state pension, will pay income tax on the whole of their income. So it is not as if people with large pensions aren't making a contribution.

I don't think the entitlement rules for the state pension should be changed, but those for other age related benefits such as the winter fuel allowance and perhaps even free bus passes should be means tested.

 

[ainsworth74]

The state pension is the bare minimum so 10% on the bare minimum isn't a lot.

If the State Pension is the bare minimum then how on earth should we describe the working age equivalent Universal Credit?

For those retiring after April 2016 State Pension is currently worth £185.15 per week, for those before then it's £141.85 per week (but that can be topped up to £182.60 per week easily enough). For a some aged 25 or over Universal Credit is £77.29 per week.

 

[urbophile]

Pensioners tend to be ready made Tory voters though.

Not this one. Or anyone I know come to that. But generally you have a point.

 

[JamesT]

I think the state pension needs a wholesale review. As I understand it, people on huge employment pensions also get the state pension, so long as they've made their NI payments. But a good friend of mine has been a builder all his life, he would do any jobs for anyone and has never been motivated by money, however he doesn't have anything other than his state pension once he retires, because he has spent his life just wanting to help people, and only take minimal payments from them. So if he gets a grand total of £10k to live on from when he retires next year and nothing else, I won't begrudge him a penny. Meanwhile other people I know are tight, self centred, but on a £40k pension already after a well paid career, yet they will also get the state pension.
As I say, it needs a review, and at least some degree of means testing.

Pensions are taxable income. So someone on just the state pension will pay no tax on that. Whereas the person on £40k plus the state pension will be paying almost £7,500 of tax.
Means-testing would mean providing the state pension cost more and you would get some people who deserved the pension not applying.
I think it would also be sending the wrong message to penalise people who have made provision for their retirement by taking away their state pension.

 

[Domeyhead]

The fact is that it is the government who essentially control railway funding and spending now. So the government trying to say its upto the employers to agree pay deals is fundamentally incorrect when the employers can't agree anything without the government signing it off too.

Is it really just ignorance though? I think you are being pretty generous if you think it is just that rather than a specific attempt to muddy the waters.

Again I think you are being pretty naive if you think the MP's banging on about automation don't know a significant amount of it is already used.

Your first point is naiive, so please don't bandy the word around. The Treasury is not the same as The Government. There is always a queue of Cabinet Ministers lined up to get more money for their particular briefs and almost all are disappointed, and in this case when there are calls for funding from many many deserving quarters I do not think the Department for Transport are anywhere near the front of that queue. The Treasury's one and only focus is inflation, not the wages of anyone in particular. For your second point, if a Daily Mail article quotes the wages of Tube Train drivers in London in bold text, are you saying that a Government Minister told them to do it? THat is not even Machiavellian, it is illogical. Such an action would bring down the Minister who did it because it would be traceable and self defeating. You don't win the war by using false information, because you get found out as Mick Lynch tried on PM last week. Regarding the third point, I wonder whether you would know such arcane technical detail about another industry as knowing whether or not a Class 158 carries track detection equipment or not? MPs look for good soundbites from any sector when the chance comes along. Last week it might be MRI scanners, this week it's Track safety. The list of MPs banging on about Green Energy and Rail without even knowing the difference between a DMU and an EMU does not constitute a Government Misinformation Conspiracy. This thread seems to be more focussed on anti Government rhetoric than on justifying the wage claims.

 

[matacaster]

I recall when Cardiff were putting in raised kerbs for bus stops. One team dug up the bus shelter and took it away. Another team put in the new kerbs and resurfaced the pavement. Then the first team came back up dug up the new pavement to put the shelter back! The process took weeks for each stop and was repeated all over Cardiff. I see no reason why each one could not have been done in a day or two at most.

They did that in Barnsley recently.

 

[HORNIMANS]

If the State Pension is the bare minimum then how on earth should we describe the working age equivalent Universal Credit?

For those retiring after April 2016 State Pension is currently worth £185.15 per week, for those before then it's £141.85 per week (but that can be topped up to £182.60 per week easily enough). For a some aged 25 or over Universal Credit is £77.29 per week.

all pensions, state and private are all taxed at the normal tax rates. i really love my pass pass it gets older people out of the house, I also have a senior railcard a i do love trains aswell.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Your first point is naiive, so please don't bandy the word around. The Treasury is not the same as The Government. There is always a queue of Cabinet Ministers lined up to get more money for their particular briefs and almost all are disappointed, and in this case when there are calls for funding from many many deserving quarters I do not think the Department for Transport are anywhere near the front of that queue. The Treasury's one and only focus is inflation, not the wages of anyone in particular. For your second point, if a Daily Mail article quotes the wages of Tube Train drivers in London in bold text, are you saying that a Government Minister told them to do it? THat is not even Machiavellian, it is illogical. Such an action would bring down the Minister who did it because it would be traceable and self defeating. You don't win the war by using false information, because you get found out as Mick Lynch tried on PM last week. Regarding the third point, I wonder whether you would know such arcane technical detail about another industry as knowing whether or not a Class 158 carries track detection equipment or not? MPs look for good soundbites from any sector when the chance comes along. Last week it might be MRI scanners, this week it's Track safety. The list of MPs banging on about Green Energy and Rail without even knowing the difference between a DMU and an EMU does not constitute a Government Misinformation Conspiracy. This thread seems to be more focussed on anti Government rhetoric than on justifying the wage claims.

Incorrect. The body that has responsibility for inflation is not the treasury. It is the Bank of England which has inflation targets. The treasury is political and so it's only target is to win the next election.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They currently have guards who are moving to a new role as train managers. Signallers don't work for Merseyrail as far as I know? Sandhills signallers probably could do though. I understand that's similar to what happens on Island Line.

Sandhills signallers are Network Rail.

 

[TwoYellas]

Thanks. I don’t drink beer, I only drink water, I regularly get five a day, and I ran a marathon last month and have another in September. Sure I eat some stuff that’s not so good but apart from that I’m pretty good at looking after myself I think.

Oh, ok in that case I need advice off you I think. Lol

 

[duncanp]

I think it would also be sending the wrong message to penalise people who have made provision for their retirement by taking away their state pension.

If you reduced the state pension for those who have a high private pension, it would disincentivise people to save for their pension.

The point of getting people to save for their pensions is that, on the whole, they will be less reliant on the state in their old age.

Returning to the railways, the article below from a reputable employmeny agency, gives some figures for train driver salaries. I have no idea how true they are, but if the figures are representative, then a train driver retiring after more than 30 years service could expect to receive a reasonable pension from the railway pension scheme.

I think the RMT and the other rail unions would be the first to complain about any proposal that would reduce their members entitlement to the state pension because of the level of their occupational pension.

And they would be quite right to do so.

A guide to the salaries and benefits for UK train drivers

If you are interested in becoming a train driver, learn about the salaries and benefits you could be entitled to within the railway industry in the UK.

www.reed.com

Average train driver salary ranges​

The salary and benefits packages for the role of a train driver usually depends on the company, alongside external factors such as length of service, location, and qualifications.

The average train driver salary in the UK is £48,500 per year. Train drivers can expect to begin with an average starting salary of £30,000, with the highest salaries often exceeding £65,000.

Train driver salaries can also differ between commercial or freight roles. The average freight train driver salary in the UK is £44,418.

The average train driver salary in London is £58,795, with experienced professionals in the region having salaries that often exceed £69,000, while train driver salaries in Scotland start at £38,194 for newly qualified drivers, rising to £48,360 after the probation period has ended.

The average annual salary range for some company-specific train driver roles are:

London North Eastern Railway (LNER)

The average LNER train driver salary range is £30,000 to £70,000.

Transport for London (TfL)

The average TFL train driver salary range is £57,217 to £61,620.

Scotrail

The average Scotrail train driver salary range is £50,659 to £56,245.

Northern Rail

The average Northern Rail train driver salary range is £40,104 to £57,546.

East Midlands Railway

The average East Midlands Railway train driver salary range is £54,403 to £61,467.

Great Western Railway

The average Great Western Railway train driver salary range is £49,807 to £67,304.

Merseyrail

The average Merseyrail train driver salary range is £50,572 to £55,415.

Southeastern Railway

The average Southeastern Railway train driver salary range is £37,261 to £58,503.

 

[SuperNova]

The house price you quote is likely accurate, but is severely inflated by the astronomical prices in southern England. Up north a terrace house might be circa £125k, 3 bedroomed detached starting around your average figure. People don't have to live in London and SE.

I live in the North of England. There's nothing round my way that costs that much money for a terraced house.

 

[Facing Back]

Exactly this. I don't think anyone is denying there may be a short-term impact, but I very much doubt it'll change travel habits. I have had many, many poor experiences with buses, taxis, planes and trains. I still use all of those travel modes depending on which makes the most sense for any given journey.

I agree it’s mainly a short term impact in many ways. I do think it will likely have a long term impact on some habits such as reducing the everyday morning commute. Which takes out some of the high cost tickets hence a disproportionate impact.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Does the Merseyrail TSSA deal include any assurances about keeping the station ticket offices open?

 

[boabt]

This is Nicola Sturgeon once again sticking it to the English (Conservative government); where's Scotland getting the money from to pay this rise? Come on, even a blind man knows this was politically timed.

If you think the Scottish Gov make spending decisions just to irritate the UK Gov, you are quite quite mad!

 

[urbophile]

It helps that they're taking on a media savvy, verbose union leader in Lynch who knows his brief and is running rings around inept Tory MP's and the MSM.

Johnson was probably banking on a Scargill figure. And he's no Thatcher.

'verbose' for Lynch? In the interviews I have seen he comes across as concise, to the point and calm. Not verbose at all. (Unless you mean articulate)

 

[Watershed]

If you reduced the state pension for those who have a high private pension, it would disincentivise people to save for their pension.

The point of getting people to save for their pensions is that, on the whole, they will be less reliant on the state in their old age.

Returning to the railways, the article below from a reputable employmeny agency, gives some figures for train driver salaries. I have no idea how true they are, but if the figures are representative, then a train driver retiring after more than 30 years service could expect to receive a reasonable pension from the railway pension scheme.

I think the RMT and the other rail unions would be the first to complain about any proposal that would reduce their members entitlement to the state pension because of the level of their occupational pension.

And they would be quite right to do so.

A guide to the salaries and benefits for UK train drivers

If you are interested in becoming a train driver, learn about the salaries and benefits you could be entitled to within the railway industry in the UK.

www.reed.com

The figures are about right (though perhaps a few years out of date). Generally salaries during training or for the first year/two following qualification are much lower than the pay once fully qualified and out of your 'probationary' period. These figures also exclude enhancements and overtime, which the vast majority of drivers would receive/do in some form or another. That said, these are generally non-pensionable so aren't relevant in that discussion.

Almost all TOCs are still on a defined benefit pension scheme, whereby each year you accrue approximately 1/60th of (current salary minus [1.5 × basic state pension]), up to a maximum of 40 years' accrual. If, by way of an example, you were to earn £50k for 40 years you would receive a pension of £26k (ignoring inflation). So, generous - but there are certainly more generous public sector schemes out there.

 

[westv]

If the State Pension is the bare minimum then how on earth should we describe the working age equivalent Universal Credit?

For those retiring after April 2016 State Pension is currently worth £185.15 per week, for those before then it's £141.85 per week (but that can be topped up to £182.60 per week easily enough). For a some aged 25 or over Universal Credit is £77.29 per week.

They aren't similar. The fulfill a different need so you can't really compare.

 

[Watershed]

They aren't similar. The fulfill a different need so you can't really compare.

Both seem to me to fulfill the role of providing a basic level of income for those who cannot earn one. But there has been a political decision to pay those who are unemployed/underemployed etc. less than those who are retired.

 

[westv]

Both seem to me to fulfill the role of providing a basic level of income for those who cannot earn one. But there has been a political decision to pay those who are unemployed/underemployed etc. less than those who are retired.

The state pension is a minimum for those that will be unlikely to be able to increase their income for the rest of their lives
UC is a minimum for those that can hopefully increase their other income.

 

[matacaster]

The state pension is a minimum for those that will be unlikely to be able to increase their income for the rest of their lives
UC is a minimum for those that can hopefully increase their other income.

Correct.