Re-Arranging Services through Sheffield

[Manutd1999]

Splitting the EMR Norwich - Liverpool at Nottingham has been talked about for years, but always in the context of continuing the current Nottingham - Sheffield (reverse) - Manchester - Liverpool route as a standalone service.

At the same time, Northern has a 2ph Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley service, one continuing to Nottingham and one reversing to Lincoln.

It seems there could be a neater alternative for these 3x services:

2ph Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham semi-fast
1ph Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Lincoln

With a half-hourly (clockface) connection to Sheffield the journey times from Nottingham to Manchester wouldn't be massively different, but it would require a change. Similarly, Leeds to Lincoln would be a straight-forward change.

Benefits include:

• Removal of 4x reversals each hour, allowing all these services to use through-platforms at Sheffield. This is particularly beneficial at the northern end of the station, which is heavily constrained.
• The new Liverpool-Lincoln service could be handed over to Northern or TPE, removing the historical oddity that is EMR services through Manchester/Liverpool. EMR would retain the Nottingham-Norwich portion.
• Improved Leeds-Nottingham service.

Any thoughts? It all hinges on how crucial the direct Nottingham-Manchester link is deemed to be....

 

[adamedwards]

How many passengers are travelling Manchester to Nottingham and would be inconvenienced by the change and then might drive instead? The risk is you loose revenue by forcing a change. The alternative could be to route the trains around the Old Road loop to save on reversal.

 

[Bartsimho]

How many passengers are travelling Manchester to Nottingham and would be inconvenienced by the change and then might drive instead? The risk is you loose revenue by forcing a change. The alternative could be to route the trains around the Old Road loop to save on reversal.

But the old loop is slower even with reversal and it pushes another train through Nunnery Junction which is already very busy (and needs reworking but that would require a combined rail and road project)

 

[JonathanH]

It seems there could be a neater alternative for these 3x services:

2ph Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham semi-fast
1ph Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Lincoln

With a half-hourly (clockface) connection to Sheffield the journey times from Nottingham to Manchester wouldn't be massively different, but it would require a change. Similarly, Leeds to Lincoln would be a straight-forward change.

Even more neat would be 2tph Liverpool to Sheffield, 2tph Leeds to Nottingham, possibly Manchester to Lincoln stopper and Sheffield to Cleethorpes as a stand alone service.

The major attraction of this would be enabling Liverpool to Sheffield to have sensible length trains, and allow evenly spread departures on the various departures. However, as noted above Nottingham would be cut off from Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[ChrisC]

I think all of the suggestions so far would create more problems than they solve.

There are too many passengers who travel from Nottingham to Manchester, and to a lesser extent Liverpool, to expect everyone to change trains at Sheffield. It isn’t just Nottingham but also quite a number of passengers to Manchester from Alfreton and Chesterfield. That’s not counting those who travel to Manchester from stations east of Nottingham like Peterborough and Grantham.

It would certainly put me off travelling that route by train. Now, unless it’s short formed, I’m just about guaranteed getting a seat when boarding at Alfreton or Chesterfield. Far too often, especially at weekend, there are hoards of passengers trying to board at Sheffield, and trains regularly leave full and standing. I don’t want to be amongst the crowds having to get on at Sheffield and having to stand all the way to Manchester.

The Leeds to Nottingham trains are also often overcrowded, and because of the constraints at platform 17 in Leeds can only run as 2 carriage trains. Also if anything goes wrong these trains are regularly cancelled south of Sheffield. Even with 2 trains an hour between Leeds and Nottingham this would not be enough capacity between Nottingham and Sheffield. Passengers who can now enjoy a reasonably comfortable through journey from Nottingham to Sheffield could end up having to stand on two overcrowded trains plus a change of trains and Sheffield. That’s without considering TPE and Northern cancellations! This would absolutely discourage me and many others from travelling by train to Manchester.

 

[cle]

Potentially a separate Nottingham (Norwich? Cambridge?) to Manchester service, via Dore ie no Sheffield, could be viable once Hope Valley projects are complete.

 

[Basil Jet]

Potentially a separate Nottingham (Norwich? Cambridge?) to Manchester service, via Dore ie no Sheffield, could be viable once Hope Valley projects are complete.

I presume you mean via Dore South Curve rather than via Dore?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Removal of the Nottingham to Manchester service is simply handing passengers to the road network, either behind us steering wheel or in a coach seat. From a friend who lives in Nottingham, apparently the coach companies are already sniffing around increased capacity on such a flow and contemplating services that avoid Sheffield city centre and either don't stop at all or only call at meadowhall and so the railway needs to be careful, I also don't think Sheffield station as it stands could handle the vastly increased passenger flows if everyone was forced to change, both in terms of facilities like toilets and refreshments and in terms of services like Passenger assist etc for the large number of people who would now require it as a lot of older and disabled folk do use those trains for stop the big debate is whether it continues to Liverpool or is terminated at Manchester, but certainly removing it from Sheffield towards Nottingham and the Finn country is not the answer

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Once again "avoiding reversals" is suggested as an advantage. I've asked this question more times than I can remember but what exactly is the disadvantage of a service that reverses at a station it was calling at anyway? Nobody has yet been able to explain satisfactorily why reversals are something that needs to be avoided.

Also services that reverse can use bay platforms at the appropriate end of the station- if they run through they have to use through platforms which are at a bit of a premium at Sheffield.

 

[liamf656]

This thread may be worth looking at which also suggested using Dore South Curve

Could the EMR Hope Valley service be improved by avoiding a reversal at Sheffield?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hope-valley-capacity-scheme-updates.168285/ By 1990 singling tbrough Dore and Totley station waa realised to have been a mistake and soon after 1995 the first plans to redouble were observed on the wall at Railtrack's Manchester...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ChrisC]

I also don't think Sheffield station as it stands could handle the vastly increased passenger flows if everyone was forced to change, both in terms of facilities like toilets and refreshments and in terms of services like Passenger assist etc for the large number of people who would now require it as a lot of older and disabled folk do use those trains

To a lesser extent I think this has also been a problem caused by XC significantly cutting the number of their trains which call at Chesterfield. Nearly all journey planners for journeys from Nottingham to York, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc used to suggest a change at Chesterfield. This was an easy same platform connection with usually only around 10 minutes to wait. Now for many such journeys the connection is at Sheffield with not such an easy same platform change. This is not necessary as most of these XC trains now have an extended wait at Derby. Again this really effects older and disabled passengers who did not find an easy change at Chesterfield too daunting.

 

[cle]

I presume you mean via Dore South Curve rather than via Dore?

Yes exactly, I was on my phone and being brief.

If there is an Alfreton and Chesterfield market to Manchester (and Liverpool?) worth serving --- even though I am told Derby and Leicester to Manchester isn't worth considering --- then a (xxx-) Nottingham to Manchester service, if pathable, would be a good addition, even if it took up some calls in the Hope Valley or had to route via Romiley.

From Sheffield, the Lincoln looks a good bet. Adds a few new pairs (Retford and Worksop to Manchester, plus ECML connection)

 

[Bartsimho]

Yes exactly, I was on my phone and being brief.

If there is an Alfreton and Chesterfield market to Manchester (and Liverpool?) worth serving --- even though I am told Derby and Leicester to Manchester isn't worth considering --- then a (xxx-) Nottingham to Manchester service, if pathable, would be a good addition, even if it took up some calls in the Hope Valley or had to route via Romiley.

From Sheffield, the Lincoln looks a good bet. Adds a few new pairs (Retford and Worksop to Manchester, plus ECML connection)

If you are removing the Sheffield call to use Dore South Curve then you probably need to add some more services which go Chesterfield to Sheffield as it is a very popular journey for commuting and entertainment. Lots joining currently with the 4tph it sees (2 from St Pancras, 2 from Nottingham) so you wouldn't want to reduce that

 

[Manutd1999]

Once again "avoiding reversals" is suggested as an advantage. I've asked this question more times than I can remember but what exactly is the disadvantage of a service that reverses at a station it was calling at anyway? Nobody has yet been able to explain satisfactorily why reversals are something that needs to be avoided.

In Sheffield's case, reversals reduce capacity. This is particularly relevant at the northern side of the station.

2x reversals each hour from the Leeds-Lincoln service (i.e. 1x service) use ~10 mins of capacity from the bay platforms. If these services were able to run via thr through-platforms (taking perhaps 2-3 mins dwell time), it would release extra capacity.

Potentially a separate Nottingham (Norwich? Cambridge?) to Manchester service, via Dore ie no Sheffield, could be viable once Hope Valley projects are complete.

This would be a good solution. Norwich-Nottingham-Derby-(Dore Curve)-Manchester would be a useful service. The issue is that the Dore Curve was originally intended to "shelter" freight services. I'm not sure whether this is still necessary.

 

[cle]

If you are removing the Sheffield call to use Dore South Curve then you probably need to add some more services which go Chesterfield to Sheffield as it is a very popular journey for commuting and entertainment. Lots joining currently with the 4tph it sees (2 from St Pancras, 2 from Nottingham) so you wouldn't want to reduce that

XC from Bh'am / Derby also, no? Can't keep up, but historically... but yes agreed. Maybe the truncated Norwich (supposed to end at Derby one day?) could get to Sheffield instead.

 

[Bald Rick]

In Sheffield's case, reversals reduce capacity. This is particularly relevant at the northern side of the station.

2x reversals each hour from the Leeds-Lincoln service (i.e. 1x service) use ~10 mins of capacity from the bay platforms. If these services were able to run via thr through-platforms (taking perhaps 2-3 mins dwell time), it would release extra capacity.

Look at the timetable. The Leeds - Lincolns typically reverse in 3 minutes. Doing so in a bay helps with capacity, as if they are out of course it’s not blocking a through line for something else…

 

[zwk500]

In Sheffield's case, reversals reduce capacity. This is particularly relevant at the northern side of the station.

It's been a while since I looked at Sheffield, but my impression was always that the approaches were often worse than the station itself so long as the train was short. Particularly on the north side.

2x reversals each hour from the Leeds-Lincoln service (i.e. 1x service) use ~10 mins of capacity from the bay platforms. If these services were able to run via thr through-platforms (taking perhaps 2-3 mins dwell time), it would release extra capacity.

Release capacity for what?

This would be a good solution. Norwich-Nottingham-Derby-(Dore Curve)-Manchester would be a useful service. The issue is that the Dore Curve was originally intended to "shelter" freight services. I'm not sure whether this is still necessary.

You can't hold anything worthwhile on the Dore Curve, although AIUI the upgrade project might be easing that problem. The Bamford Goods Loop (cutting problems aside) would offer an alternative though. However you would still have the *massive* problem for west to south trains of needing to get gaps across the eastbound hope valley and northbound MML to cross trains. Doing that 2x an hour, with the opposite direction equivalents, will eat up far more capacity into Sheffield than you release in the platforms.

 

[Manutd1999]

However you would still have the *massive* problem for west to south trains of needing to get gaps across the eastbound hope valley and northbound MML to cross trains. Doing that 2x an hour, with the opposite direction equivalents, will eat up far more capacity into Sheffield than you release in the platforms.

That's a good point.

Maybe this has to wait until the intended 3ph (clockface) fast Manchester-Sheffield is implemente (if ever...). That way both Lincoln, Nottingham and Cleethorpes could all have a Manchester service via Sheffield.

 

[Dr Hoo]

This would be a good solution. Norwich-Nottingham-Derby-(Dore Curve)-Manchester would be a useful service. The issue is that the Dore Curve was originally intended to "shelter" freight services. I'm not sure whether this is still necessary.

With (southbound) stone traffic from the Peak District quarries continuing to reach new record levels the (extended) Dore Curve 'freight shelter' is more necessary than ever.

 

[fishwomp]

I read recently of the idea of opening a bay platform between platforms 6 and 8 on the north east side of Sheffield. That would mean fewer conflicts for a Lincoln service. I don't know if there'd be an issue with the rather nice little cottage like buildings on that platform though..

Most times when I arrive at Sheffield from the north, on a terminating northern service, it sits waiting for another service to depart from a bay platform. That delay likely also impacts on through services sitting behind us. One more platform could go a long way.

As it happens, coming from the south is also usually held up (my luck?)..

 

[Philip]

Would a 'skip-stop' pattern between all 3 Hope Valley services be a good idea as a way to improve the service without taking up more paths? It would increase journey times between Manchester and Sheffield by up to 10 minutes but on the other hand it would mean three reasonably quick services between Manchester and Sheffield instead of the two currently operating.
Perhaps on Saturdays and Sundays the 'Hope Valley stopper' could revert to an all-stops calling pattern as these are the busiest days for the Hope Valley stations, but on weekdays the Northern service could do something like: Marple, New Mills, Chinley, Edale and Dore; with TPE and EMR picking up the stations beyond Edale.

 

[Bevan Price]

Would a 'skip-stop' pattern between all 3 Hope Valley services be a good idea as a way to improve the service without taking up more paths? It would increase journey times between Manchester and Sheffield by up to 10 minutes but on the other hand it would mean three reasonably quick services between Manchester and Sheffield instead of the two currently operating.
Perhaps on Saturdays and Sundays the 'Hope Valley stopper' could revert to an all-stops calling pattern as these are the busiest days for the Hope Valley stations, but on weekdays the Northern service could do something like: Marple, New Mills, Chinley, Edale and Dore; with TPE and EMR picking up the stations beyond Edale.

No thanks.
Even the current journey time is hardly exciting for "express" services.
What would be better would be :
1. All advertised trains actually to run.
2. No short formations on services that actually run.

 

[dosxuk]

It would increase journey times between Manchester and Sheffield by up to 10 minutes but on the other hand it would mean three reasonably quick services between Manchester and Sheffield instead of the two currently operating.

The current service pattern can hardly be described as reasonably quick, let alone if you add 10 minutes to each journey.

It's 32 miles between Sheffield Midland and Manchester Piccadilly stations as the crow flies. Most "express" services currently take over 50 minutes to make that journey - that's an average speed of about 35mph.