Real time train says my train was delayed 15 minutes, but Avanti says it was only 14, am I out of luck for delay repay?

[VItraveller]

hi everyone,
on Friday, the 2nd of August I was travelling on the 16:52 Avanti service from Milton Keynes Central to rugby.
this train was delayed leaving Milton Keynes until 17:09 and according to real time trains arrived in rugby at 17:29 which would make it eligible for delay repay.
However, in raising this with Avanti they say that the train arrived at 17:28 and that real Time, trains is not an official record.
Am I out of luck for claiming delay repay on this journey?

 

[Watershed]

Real Time Trains isn't an official source in its own right, but it uses signalling data from Network Rail in much the same way that Avanti no doubt will do. Neither is a 100% accurate source for the actual arrival time, which will depend on the speed at which the train ran on its way into the station, how long the driver took to release the doors after stopping and so forth.

The only truly definitive source would be data from the "black box" on the train (which of course isn't available for the purpose of Delay Repay claims!) or if you happened to take a video showing the arrival of the train together with a station clock or similar.

If Avanti wants to play silly buggers then I would suggest making a complaint. I tend to find that unblocks the channels of communication!

 

[CyrusWuff]

TRUST shows it as having reached the reporting point for Rugby at 17:28 I'm afraid, though that only has a resolution of 1 minute.

 

[Vexed]

RTT takes the train describer data itself and uses their own berth offsets instead of the ones TRUST uses so can have slightly different times.

Interestingly it looks like Darwin recorded 17:29 though so the mystery continues! I guess Avanti use TRUST them. This is the Darwin data http://timetablehistory.com/times.aspx?uid=C22014&date=20240802

 

[VItraveller]

hi everyone,
Thanks for all your comments.
I don’t think I will raise a complaint,it probably wouldn’t go in my favour since their internal systems show it arriving a minute before.
The frustrating thing is that Alan any other time, it wouldn’t matter, I wish that in these circumstances where there’s conflicting info about when the train arrived that they would just pay delay repay anyway, since in practice, there’s not much difference between being delayed by 14 or 15 minutes, but I suppose they have to set the threshold somewhere.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@VItraveller. Why not appeal the decision and append to it the data that @Vexed has helpfully linked to in post #4.

P.S. How much is at stake here? 12.5% of the cost of a £20.50 Anytime Day Return, perhaps? Or maybe 25% of an £16.30 Off Peak Day Single? Not majorly large amounts, but reckon it's still worth an appeal.

 

[Haywain]

However, in raising this with Avanti they say that the train arrived at 17:28 and that real Time, trains is not an official record.

Have you actually claimed, or just asked if a claim would be successful? If you haven't submitted a claim you definitely should do, and if it is rejected you can appeal. If you have already claimed, you should also appeal. You've got nothing to lost other than a small amount of time.

 

[Tom]

The TRUST timing if it wasn't truncated would have been arrival of 17:28:58. 85 second offset and step occured at 17:27:33. RTT's offset is 91 seconds.

I'd say that's worth complaining about, particularly as that timing hasn't been looked at in almost a decade.

 

[miklcct]

I have appealed to Thameslink for the exact thing (the system showed 14 minutes delay and rejected my claim automatically, but the system registered the arrival half a minute before my train came to a stop.), and the appeal was approved. I had video evidence in case if I needed to escalate the case.

 

[redreni]

A lot of passengers feel it isn't worth their time to claim, which may be so, but remember the TOC is literally paying somebody to deal with manual claims and appeals. They will also consider the cost of their time versus the cost of paying out.

There's nothing to lose by claiming and indeed appealing - the industry data isn't conclusive, the passenger has to all intents and purposes been delayed by a quarter of an hour and they're complaining - why irritate them any further? If you can get through to somebody with any degree of discretion at all, if they've an ounce of common sense they'll just pay out I would have thought.

 

[Haywain]

A lot of passengers feel it isn't worth their time to claim, which may be so, but remember the TOC is literally paying somebody to deal with manual claims and appeals. They will also consider the cost of their time versus the cost of paying out.

There's nothing to lose by claiming and indeed appealing - the industry data isn't conclusive, the passenger has to all intents and purposes been delayed by a quarter of an hour and they're complaining - why irritate them any further? If you can get through to somebody with any degree of discretion at all, if they've an ounce of common sense they'll just pay out I would have thought.

I had a similar delay with Thameslink and no amount of complaining would change their mind that it was 14 minutes and they did not have to pay.

 

[VItraveller]

update from Avanti:
So I sent an email to Avanti explaining the situation and providing links to the information from real time trains and Darwin, thank you again for helping me out with this.
Their response was as follows:
I am sorry to hear of the delay to your journey with us on 2nd August, and that you have been advised that your journey from Milton Keynes Central to Rugby did not meet the threshold for Delay Repay compensation to be awarded.

Whilst I acknowledge the unofficial sources you have provided, showing the delay to your journey to be exactly 15 minutes, I should explain that the arrival time of our services is recorded by sensors at the entrances to our stations. Once the train passes the sensor, this is captured at the arrival time. As such, we're comfortable with the accuracy of the arrival time that has been recorded against your 16:52 service from Milton Keynes Central and unfortunately, this means I am unable to award any Delay Repay compensation on this occasion.

Thank you again for getting in touch with us. I appreciate this may not have been the response you were hoping for, however I hope this e-mail has provided clarity on how Delay Repay compensation is calculated.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The TRUST timing if it wasn't truncated would have been arrival of 17:28:58. 85 second offset and step occured at 17:27:33. RTT's offset is 91 seconds.

I'd say that's worth complaining about, particularly as that timing hasn't been looked at in almost a decade.

Looking at the (internal) RTTI history is even better, with the arrival being recorded as 17:29:04.

Shows what a discrepancy there is between industry systems!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, basically Avanti are saying that the arrival time for 'Delay Repay' purposes isn't the actual arrival time platform side (at Rugby station) but some slightly earlier time when their train has passed sensors on the approach into the station. How very convenient for them!

 

[Tom]

Avanti are in the same boat as virtually everyone else on this @Mcr Warrior, it's nearly always based on an offset from the last signal before the platform.

It is unfortunate, but Avanti are relying on TRUST - more specifically an offset that hasn't been reviewed (or perhaps I should say modified) in 10 years.

 

[Kite159]

Ask for a deadlock letter to take it to the ombudsman. They might not rule in your flavour but it will cost Avanti more in admin than they would have paid out.

I think it was @Bletchleyite who once said the thresholds should be 14, 29 & 59 minutes to take into account the odd second where the train might be 14 minutes and 58 seconds late, which to all purposes is 15 minutes late.

 

[Haywain]

I think it was @Bletchleyite who once said the thresholds should be 14, 29 & 59 minutes

And if they were this thread would be about a delay of 13 minutes.

an offset that hasn't been reviewed (or perhaps I should say modified) in 10 years.

Do you know that to be the case, or are you speculating?

 

[OscarH]

Seems entirely unacceptable for the compensation not to be based on Darwin, given that is the official source for passenger facing info.

"I acknowledge that all the information on our site and the other industry sites we point you to says 15 minutes, but we're going off our own internal tooling" - if you were a passenger being told that you'd be quite rightly very annoyed

 

[Tom]

Do you know that to be the case, or are you speculating?

The SMART offsets tables are published into the public domain.

The step in question is 3345 -> 6003. The comment section is the date last audited.

{
      "STEPTYPE": "B",
      "FROMBERTH": "3345",
      "TOBERTH": "6003",
      "STANOX": "70030",
      "EVENT": "C",
      "PLATFORM": "1",
      "TOLINE": "",
      "BERTHOFFSET": "+85",
      "ROUTE": "",
      "FROMLINE": "1",
      "TD": "R2",
      "COMMENT": "14/09/2014",
      "STANME": "RUGBY"
}

 

[yorkie]

hi everyone,
on Friday, the 2nd of August I was travelling on the 16:52 Avanti service from Milton Keynes Central to rugby.
this train was delayed leaving Milton Keynes until 17:09 and according to real time trains arrived in rugby at 17:29 which would make it eligible for delay repay.
However, in raising this with Avanti they say that the train arrived at 17:28 and that real Time, trains is not an official record.
Am I out of luck for claiming delay repay on this journey?

What ticket type was held, and was this with or without a Railcard? Was it a return ticket?

If you are dissatisfied, your next step would be to go to the Ombudsman (you may want to first ask for a "deadlock letter" first).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ask for a deadlock letter to take it to the ombudsman. They might not rule in your flavour but it will cost Avanti more in admin than they would have paid out.

I think it was @Bletchleyite who once said the thresholds should be 14, 29 & 59 minutes to take into account the odd second where the train might be 14 minutes and 58 seconds late, which to all purposes is 15 minutes late.

I did, but also did get a 29 minute delay paid as 30 once by appealing basically saying "don't take the mick" as it was a cancellation and every other train in the previous few hours had arrived one minute early so I was clearly actually delayed 30 minutes. Pretty sure it was WMT.

 

[VItraveller]

What ticket type was held, and was this with or without a Railcard? Was it a return ticket?

If you are dissatisfied, your next step would be to go to the Ombudsman (you may want to first ask for a "deadlock letter" first).

It was an off Peak day return and I bought it with my Railcard.
I think I will go to the rail ombudsman, but they don’t have the greatest reputation on this forum and so I suspect they will rule in Avanti’s favour, still, I’d like to be armed with as much information as I can be

 

[redreni]

I had a similar delay with Thameslink and no amount of complaining would change their mind that it was 14 minutes and they did not have to pay.

Yes, there were a couple of ifs doing some fairly heavy lifting in my post, I now realise!

update from Avanti:
So I sent an email to Avanti explaining the situation and providing links to the information from real time trains and Darwin, thank you again for helping me out with this.
Their response was as follows:
I am sorry to hear of the delay to your journey with us on 2nd August, and that you have been advised that your journey from Milton Keynes Central to Rugby did not meet the threshold for Delay Repay compensation to be awarded.

Whilst I acknowledge the unofficial sources you have provided, showing the delay to your journey to be exactly 15 minutes, I should explain that the arrival time of our services is recorded by sensors at the entrances to our stations. Once the train passes the sensor, this is captured at the arrival time. As such, we're comfortable with the accuracy of the arrival time that has been recorded against your 16:52 service from Milton Keynes Central and unfortunately, this means I am unable to award any Delay Repay compensation on this occasion.

Thank you again for getting in touch with us. I appreciate this may not have been the response you were hoping for, however I hope this e-mail has provided clarity on how Delay Repay compensation is calculated.

To the best of your knowledge, was it 17:29 or later when the doors opened? And have you asserted that in your correspondence with Avanti (as opposed to just telling them what RTT and DARWIN say)?

If you assert that it was, given:

• the industry data disagrees
• even if you only look at TRUST, given that it relies on an offset and it says the delay was 14 minutes and 58 seconds, that is manifestly well within the margin of error of a system that relies on a fixed offset (i.e. an assumption),

then I really don't see how an assertion by the passenger that the delay was 15 minutes or more could reasonably be refuted under these circumstances. Even the most useless of Ombudsmen would surely see that?

This case is a good illustration of why, if you've a phone on you with plenty of battery, it can be worth filming arrival at a station if close to a delay threshold!

 

[Western Sunset]

Open Train Times (who I think also use TRUST) gives MKC d.1709 (17L), Rugby a.1728 (14L).

 

[Mr Grayson]

Avanti are in the same boat as virtually everyone else on this @Mcr Warrior, it's nearly always based on an offset from the last signal before the platform.

It is unfortunate, but Avanti are relying on TRUST - more specifically an offset that hasn't been reviewed (or perhaps I should say modified) in 10 years.

Do smaller stations have similar arrangements/sensors in place to capture arrival/departure timings?

My local station is Chessington North and the last signal a Chessington South-bound train passes, signal W415, is sited before the train reaches the previous station (Tolworth). On passing it RTT magically updates with arrival and departure times for Tolworth and an arrival time at Chessington North, some 3-and-a-half minutes before that event has actually happened.

Consequently RTT gives a false picture. The PIS at Chessington North likewise will display (for example) a delayed train as 'exp 17:51', when it's already 17:54 on arrival, leaving the passenger to assume that some of SWR's timings can only be predictive, not factual.

 

[Trainguy34]

Do smaller stations have similar arrangements/sensors in place to capture arrival/departure timings?

My local station is Chessington North and the last signal a Chessington South-bound train passes, signal W415, is sited before the train reaches the previous station (Tolworth). On passing it RTT magically updates with arrival and departure times for Tolworth and an arrival time at Chessington North, some 3-and-a-half minutes before that event has actually happened.

Consequently RTT gives a false picture. The PIS at Chessington North likewise will display (for example) a delayed train as 'exp 17:51', when it's already 17:54 on arrival, leaving the passenger to assume that some of SWR's timings can only be predictive, not factual.

Similar on my local line (Faversham-Dover), there's a bit of about 10 mins where RTT just assumes the times. Can be annoying for checking Railtours.

 

[Tom]

Do smaller stations have similar arrangements/sensors in place to capture arrival/departure timings?

Yes, this is very normal practice for the whole country. RTT in some areas uses some other data to do it where possible (and I believe we are the only ones doing it in that way). Some trains report GPS and so that will be used as well for some information systems.

 

[mangyiscute]

who once said the thresholds should be 14, 29 & 59 minutes to take into account the odd second where the train might be 14 minutes and 58 seconds late, which to all purposes is 15 minutes late.

I guess just keep it as hidden as possible, and have the "official" times still as 15, 30 and 60 but internally work with 14, 29 and 59.
Then no one could complain about 13 vs 14 since its officially 15 so any complaint about that is met with a response of it was under 15 mins late, but 14 vs 15 issues would always be given.
And if its kept a relative secret like how TfL has like 3-5 mins buffer on peak times, it would never be much of a widespread issue.

 

[Horizon22]

So, basically Avanti are saying that the arrival time for 'Delay Repay' purposes isn't the actual arrival time platform side (at Rugby station) but some slightly earlier time when their train has passed sensors on the approach into the station. How very convenient for them!

I'm pretty sure this would be consistent across the industry though, which is normally the TD trigger berth.

 

[OscarH]

I'm pretty sure this would be consistent across the industry though, which is normally the TD trigger berth.

It's normal to use that + the appropriate offset, but using a different offset to the one used in the customer facing systems is blatantly insane