Redditch, Barnt Green - and need for a Birmingham SW Parkway?

[70014IronDuke]

Musing on the meaning of life, the direction of the universe and whether magic will ever return to the FA Cup, my thoughts inexorably turned to the services and passenger user figures at Redditch, Barnt Green and Bromsgrove.

Must say, one surprise for me was Redditch – a town I'm pretty sure I've never been to. My apologies to Redditichaters (Redditcharians?), but I never knew it was so big, or so rail-oriented. Its 85,000 population creates 1.058 million journeys per year.

This is presumably achieved with some help from visiting Brummies and others, but I think it's a spectacular result from a rail link that Beeching/LMR did their best to close in the 60s, even if its continuation south was successfully truncated.

Alvechurch's mere 6,600 folk also do a fair bit of rail travel - at 198,000 estimated journeys in 2017-18 - while Barnt Green (popn 1,800) boasted 303,000 users.

The vast bulk of these passengers, I assume, use the very frequent cross-Brum electric services, which is great.

But if anyone wants to go south-west, towards Cheltenham, Bristol, Cardiff etc, what is on offer? As far as I can see, almost nothing. There are two morning peak trains to Worcester stopping at Barnt Green, and one return, the 15.39 from Hereford. These do get some custom, which I suppose accounts for the 56,000 interchange pax at Barnt Green (seems an awful lot for just three trains per weekday – I've not checked weekends).

Otherwise, presumably, passengers have to double back from University or New Street? That's an extra 15-25 miles of travel (depending on your starting point) and has to be a disincentive to using rail.

More importantly – for the convenience of the much larger populations in and around SW Birmingham - is there not a case for creating a proper South West Birmingham Parkway station and giving it a decent service to and from Cheltenham, Bristol and Cardiff?

If so, where? In terms of rail connection, one logical thought would be Bromsgrove – but the station does not seem to be well connected to the motorways. Barnt Green itself is close to the M42, and might be better?

An alternative could be to run a decent (ie hourly, and not all shacks) new Birmingham – Bristol or Cardiff service via Barnt Green, Worcester and Ashchurch. For which, of course, you need crews, paths and stock.

I have vague memories that this was roughly what BR did when they introduced the Nottingham – Cardiff trains in the 1980s. But this service has since morphed into a back-up to the main XC fasts serving (in terms of its uniqueness) primarily University and Gloucester.

Whatever, it seems to me that there is a huge potential market in SW Birmingham area, and indeed Worcester - that could take the train if there were a decent offering. But as it stands, you either have to double back into Brum (bad for time and psychologically) or suffer via Worcester and the sort-of one train per two hours stopper to Bristol. Very unnatractive.

Apologies if the subject of a SW Birmingham Parkway has been discussed previously – if it has, it's passed me by.

 

[edwin_m]

The closest point to Redditch on the main line is Bromsgrove, which also has a direct dual carriageway link from Redditch and the road access from the general area, while not perfect, is probably better than to anywhere else on that section of line whether having a station or not. Barnt Green for example is close to the M42 but there is no intersection nearby and it looks like the access is only via minor roads. There isn't much room for parking and the platforms may be too short.

Bromsgrove station is recently re-built and I think has a reasonable amount of parking and platforms long enough for any passing train. So if there was the demand and the capacity to do so, the obvious choice would be to stop more trains at Bromsgrove which would also allow connections to/from the Cross City Line. The fact they don't rather suggests there isn't - but it might be a good opportunity for a future XC franchise if they get the rolling stock necessary to solve their overcrowding problems.

There is also a Parkway under construction where the Oxford line crosses the NE-SW line on the edge of Worcester. This also suffers from the trains being too full to stop, and I believe only the Cardiff trains will call (plus Oxford trains). There's another thread on this somewhere.

 

[Ianno87]

Remember that the area you suggest - Redditch/Bromsgrove *is* well connected to the South West as it is - via the M5 motorway to which it is directly connected.

Additional stops at Bromsgrove, in whatever service, are always going to struggle to compete with the M5 being right there.

So you'd be stopping more trains at Bromsgrove - slowing down 'proper' Birmingham trains, be the benefit of a small handful of Bromsgrove passengers.

 

[pedr]

I do wonder if stopping the Nottingham-Cardiff trains at Bromsgrove instead of at (Birmingham) University would be sensible. They used to stop at both, of course, but XC removed even the rush-hour stops once the Cross City line extension opened. I’m not sure I understand why they stop at University, really.

That might be annoying for Redditch passengers though - changing at both Barnt Green (or Longbridge) and then again at Bromsgrove.

 

[Kite159]

At least for passengers from Redditch towards Bromsgrove, there is an hourly service which calls at Barnt Green towards/from Bromsgrove, which is better than a couple token calls a day.

 

[Ianno87]

At least for passengers from Redditch towards Bromsgrove, there is an hourly service which calls at Barnt Green towards/from Bromsgrove, which is better than a couple token calls a day.

Most people from Redditch would just drive directly to Bromsgrove and start their journeys there.

I do wonder if stopping the Nottingham-Cardiff trains at Bromsgrove instead of at (Birmingham) University would be sensible. They used to stop at both, of course, but XC removed even the rush-hour stops once the Cross City line extension opened. I’m not sure I understand why they stop at University, really.

.

Because University is quite a major source/destination of demand in itself! Plus it'll almost certainly be in lieu of pathing time to keep it behind the previous stopper.

 

[MarkyT]

Most people from Redditch would just drive directly to Bromsgrove and start their journeys there.

Also for those who can't or won't drive there's also the Diamond #42 and #43 bus routes which together form a 30 minute interval service during the day direct from Redditch town centre to Bromsgrove rail station, taking under 20 minutes. Much quicker and no doubt cheaper than going into Birmingham and back out by train. The new Bromsgrove layout with its four platforms seems an ideal location for an express call along the Midlands - South West / South Wales axis for the future.

 

[VT 390]

Also for those who can't or won't drive there's also the Diamond #42 and #43 bus routes which together form a 30 minute interval service during the day direct from Redditch town centre to Bromsgrove rail station, taking under 20 minutes. Much quicker and no doubt cheaper than going into Birmingham and back out by train. The new Bromsgrove layout with its four platforms seems an ideal location for an express call along the Midlands - South West / South Wales axis for the future.

What about a fourth Cross Country service as an extension of the Nottingham service which terminates at New Street running non stop to Bromsgrove then Ashchurch, Cheltenham and Gloucester (then possibly taking over the stopping Transport for Wales service to Cardiff Central)?
As current Cross Country services are usually quite busy so the demand is there for it it would also give Gloucester 2tph to Birmingham.

 

[train_lover]

With some 4000 new homes currently being built in Redditch and with many more being planned what it really wants is the following

1) Redditch Parkway to be built north of the town opposite to the Abbey Stadium. There's a massive housing development happening around the rail line there.

2) Some of the old line putting back in towards the south of the town (Studley) much of where the development is happening

3) A faster service from Redditch to New Street

4) Doubling of the line to Redditch with a second platform being put in

 

[VT 390]

With some 4000 new homes currently being built in Redditch and with many more being planned what it really wants is the following

3) A faster service from Redditch to New Street

4) Doubling of the line to Redditch with a second platform being put in

I agree that a fast service from Redditch would be good but would there be capacity on the section between Kings Norton and New Street, or perhaps if/when the Bordesley chords are built the fast service could run to Moor Street in addition to the Cross City's to New Street (this would also create easier access from Redditch to to HS2 station at Curzon Street.

Is there space to add a second platform at Redditch?. If not and to keep costs down I think is the line was fully doubled right up to the Redditch approach then an improved service could work with just the one platform.

 

[train_lover]

I agree that a fast service from Redditch would be good but would there be capacity on the section between Kings Norton and New Street, or perhaps if/when the Bordesley chords are built the fast service could run to Moor Street in addition to the Cross City's to New Street (this would also create easier access from Redditch to to HS2 station at Curzon Street.

Is there space to add a second platform at Redditch?. If not and to keep costs down I think is the line was fully doubled right up to the Redditch approach then an improved service could work with just the one platform.

Completly agree. A fast service wont ever happen thanks to capacity issues. There is space for a second platform now that the needle factory has been demolished. All the points I made won't ever happen unfortunately. But the problem with Redditch is much of the development is happening to the south and south west and with the station at the north of the town we really could do with the old line being reinstated.

Should the line head south to Studley you could then attract commuters from surrounding towns such as Alcester and Evesham.

 

[VT 390]

But the problem with Redditch is much of the development is happening to the south and south west and with the station at the north of the town we really could do with the old line being reinstated.

Should the line head south to Studley you could then attract commuters from surrounding towns such as Alcester and Evesham.

I do think that an extention south would help developments in the south and is a good idea, however I do not see where the line would run as a few hundred metres south of Redditch station there is housing so a new line would have to go around this or in a tunnel, unless i have missed something.

 

[train_lover]

I do think that an extention south would help developments in the south and is a good idea, however I do not see where the line would run as a few hundred metres south of Redditch station there is housing so a new line would have to go around this or in a tunnel, unless i have missed something.

The tunnel just south of the station still stands

https://www.google.com/search?q=red...biw=412&bih=670&dpr=2.63#imgrc=N_ntX9HPw5LJ-M

 

[VT 390]

I did not know the tunnel was still there, where is the southern exit located?
Perhaps if a fast service were introduced there could be 4tph to Redditch off-peak (a half hourly Cross City service and a half hourly fast service) eventually the line could be extended to Evesham with the fast services running there to attract Cotswolds line passengers to go by train to Birmingham (or even an express service operated by Cross Country to Oxford or further) then the Cross City trains could terminate at a new station at Alcester?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Remember that the area you suggest - Redditch/Bromsgrove *is* well connected to the South West as it is - via the M5 motorway to which it is directly connected.

Yeah. But on that basis, you could say Watford is also well connected to the M1. It makes me wonder why they bother to stop WCML trains there to Coventry, Brum, Crewe etc. Ditto Stevenage and the ECML.

Additional stops at Bromsgrove, in whatever service, are always going to struggle to compete with the M5 being right there.

So you'd be stopping more trains at Bromsgrove - slowing down 'proper' Birmingham trains, be the benefit of a small handful of Bromsgrove passengers.

It seems I've not made my point well enough (perhaps because I was trying to make two points, and I argued the case from the historical way of my thought process). Because I am not talking merely about Redditch, Barnt Green & Bromsgrove.

So - briefly - let's start again. There is a very large population in and near the west, south-west and south of England's second largest city. I'm thinking of places from Stourbridge, Halesowen through Longbridge, Rubery. Northfield, and round the M42 to Shirley, Solihull and Dorridge.

Most of these populations are on a rail link to central Brum, some even have a half-ok service (when not overcrowded) to Worcester and Hereford. But none has a fast, easily accessible intercity route to the major centres to the south-west of Brum ie Chelthenham, Bristol, Cardiff, Exeter etc except by going in the wrong driection into New Street or, to a slighly lesser extent, University.

I posit this has to mean rail is losing out on substantial numbers of potential passengers, precisely because - as you point out - the M5 is there tempting them into their cars (and buses).

So, the real question is: should someone open up a SW Birmingham Parkway - and if so, where?
As a slightly peripheral point - but not so peripheral given the stations currently extant - you also have Redditch to the side, and Barnt Green and Bromsgrove on the main line, and not too far (but not necessarily well connected right now) to the M5 and M42.

So, should one of these serve as a new Brum SW Parkway with at least one XC intercity train per hour stopping there?

Or, should/could this market be tapped by running an additional limted stop Brum - Barnt Green or Bromsgrove - Worcester - Ashchurch - Bristol or Cardiff service?

I know there is a new Worcester Parkway being built - but once someone from, say, Shirely gets into a car wanting to go to, say, Swansea, I don't seen them driving all the way to Worcester Parkway and then getting the train - it's just too far for the transfer. Most will go by car all the way, or end up going via New Street. Or bus.

If Worcester Parkway is the excuse for not considering creating a Birmingham SW Parkway, I think it could be argued it is the wrong choice.

Now, I have a technical discussion board question: why can't I find this thread on the "recent posts" list without logging in?

 

[train_lover]

It comes out on tunnel drive. You can see where the road makes a sharp turn

 

[30907]

There are two things here: serving Redditch better, which is essentially about commuting to and from Birmingham (IIRC, Redditch New Town was originally an overspill), and a SW Parkway to compete with the M5.

I agree that Worcestershire Parkway doesn't cut it, but I'm not sure beyond that.
I dont know Birmingham, but I am not sure how many of the more affluent areas (which, realistically, generate the business traffic) are close enough to Bromsgrove (or Barnt Green?) for people to drive there rather than to the M5, and whether there is an obvious destination once they are there (is it Bristol or S Wales?)
I would start by testing the market with hourly (Bham)-Bromsgrove-Worcester-Gloucester-Bristol or Cardiff (replacing existing services south of Worcester). Bristol is probably better, as there will presumably be Worcs Parkway-Cardiff.

 

[VT 390]

I would start by testing the market with hourly (Bham)-Bromsgrove-Worcester-Gloucester-Bristol or Cardiff (replacing existing services south of Worcester). Bristol is probably better, as there will presumably be Worcs Parkway-Cardiff.

It would have to be Bristol South of Worcester if it took over current south of Worcester services as Worcster would otherwise loose there direct link to Bristol.
The issue I see with this service is in Peak hours when most available paths are used on the single track section north of Droitwich, also that any southbound service has to cross the northbound fast lines south of Bromsgrove.

 

[train_lover]

There are two things here: serving Redditch better, which is essentially about commuting to and from Birmingham (IIRC, Redditch New Town was originally an overspill), and a SW Parkway to compete with the M5.

I agree that Worcestershire Parkway doesn't cut it, but I'm not sure beyond that.
I dont know Birmingham, but I am not sure how many of the more affluent areas (which, realistically, generate the business traffic) are close enough to Bromsgrove (or Barnt Green?) for people to drive there rather than to the M5, and whether there is an obvious destination once they are there (is it Bristol or S Wales?)
I would start by testing the market with hourly (Bham)-Bromsgrove-Worcester-Gloucester-Bristol or Cardiff (replacing existing services south of Worcester). Bristol is probably better, as there will presumably be Worcs Parkway-Cardiff.

As far as I'm aware West Midlands Trains won't be serving Parkway. I'd imagine the bulk of the passenger flow will come from Pershore and Evesham with people then commuting into Birmingham. However couldn't this ove been covered by putting the line back in from Honeybourne to Stratford upon Avon?

 

[VT 390]

As far as I'm aware West Midlands Trains won't be serving Parkway. I'd imagine the bulk of the passenger flow will come from Pershore and Evesham with people then commuting into Birmingham. However couldn't this ove been covered by putting the line back in from Honeybourne to Stratford upon Avon?

It is probably a lot cheaper just to build the Parkway station because some of the line from Stratford has been built on, though it would be a useful line for Worcester to Stratford-upon-Avon passengers who currently have a approximately 2 hour journey via Birmingham.

 

[train_lover]

It is probably a lot cheaper just to build the Parkway station because some of the line from Stratford has been built on, though it would be a useful line for Worcester to Stratford-upon-Avon passengers who currently have a approximately 2 hour journey via Birmingham.

You are spot on. However I'm just not overly sure how well Parkway will do. I don't think the frequency will be there to be attractive enough to passengers

 

[VT 390]

You are spot on. However I'm just not overly sure how well Parkway will do. I don't think the frequency will be there to be attractive enough to passengers

It will depend how good the connections are between the GWR and XC services

 

[whhistle]

I do wonder if stopping the Nottingham-Cardiff trains at Bromsgrove instead of at (Birmingham) University would be sensible.

Isn't everyone's (TOCs) obsession with stopping at University so they get a share of the fares from the Uni and the Hospital?

 

[VT 390]

Isn't everyone's (TOCs) obsession with stopping at University so they get a share of the fares from the Uni and the Hospital?

Also it can provide slightly quicker and easier (than changing at New Street) connections for southern Cross City line stations going south

 

[train_lover]

Isn't everyone's (TOCs) obsession with stopping at University so they get a share of the fares from the Uni and the Hospital?

In all fairness Uni is a very busy station.

 

[train_lover]

Also it can provide slightly quicker and easier (than changing at New Street) connections for southern Cross City line stations going south

Agreed you'll am fine a lot of passengers cross over at Uni to head back south.

 

[MarkyT]

Agreed you'll am fine a lot of passengers cross over at Uni to head back south.

A Bromsgrove stop on the Cardiff expresses would allow those passengers to change further south. Perhaps a second hourly Cardiff train could be provided by extending a TfW service to Birmingham. A possible use for a chord at Bordesley to allow the service to terminate at Moor Street. Couldn't call at University clearly in that case.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Isn't everyone's (TOCs) obsession with stopping at University so they get a share of the fares from the Uni and the Hospital?

If there's good fares to be had, why is that an "obsession"? Good business sense, I'd call it.
I'm not against stopping eg the Cardiffs at University - the usage numbers appear very good - but suggesting there is still a case for stopping some trains at either Barnt Green or Bromsgrove.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
and whether there is an obvious destination once they are there (is it Bristol or S Wales?)

That is a fair point. I'd say Bristol would attract more traffic (for the city itself and connections), but so long as any service called at Cheltenham (which it surely would) this at least allows easy onward traffic to either destination.

I would start by testing the market with hourly (Bham)-Bromsgrove-Worcester-Gloucester-Bristol or Cardiff (replacing existing services south of Worcester). Bristol is probably better, as there will presumably be Worcs Parkway-Cardiff.

The problem here is that by stopping at local stations south of Gloucester you'd have a slow service rather than a decent semi-fast. (I'd imagine the 'new' service would be overtaken by XCs at Gloucester.) However, given the constraints of real life, I'd accept that it's probably the best anyone could hope for as a start to addressing the issue.

 

[SoccerHQ]

Kings Norton is mooted to be the new Interchange station for Southern Brum if the line to through Kings Heath is finally re-opened for passenger services in next few years.

Failing that maybe stop a Cardiff or Worcester train at Longbridge for better connections? I'd say say Bromsgrove is the better option given the redevelopment of the station.