Refund due to disruption from third party retailer

[LA50041]

I’d like a bit of advice around an issue I have with getting a refund on a ticket due to cancellation.

I was due to travel Doncaster-Selby on a Hull Train which was cancelled due to a lack of trains last month. Under NRCoT I should be entitled to a fee free refund.

The ticket was purchased through a third party seller so I contacted them for my refund as suggested in the NRCoT.

It’s now been over 4 weeks and I haven’t yet received a refund and the seller is now stating that they are waiting for the train company to approve the refund.

I assumed that it was the retailer that would be responsible for the refund as they are the company I entered into a contact with, but they seem to be passing the buck onto HT.

If it was a train company I could raise this with transport focus, would they still assist with a third party retailer ?

 

[gray1404]

Yes, you can go to TF concerning a 3rd party retailer too.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I’d like a bit of advice around an issue I have with getting a refund on a ticket due to cancellation.

I was due to travel Doncaster-Selby on a Hull Train which was cancelled due to a lack of trains last month. Under NRCoT I should be entitled to a fee free refund.

The ticket was purchased through a third party seller so I contacted them for my refund as suggested in the NRCoT.

It’s now been over 4 weeks and I haven’t yet received a refund and the seller is now stating that they are waiting for the train company to approve the refund.

I assumed that it was the retailer that would be responsible for the refund as they are the company I entered into a contact with, but they seem to be passing the buck onto HT.

If it was a train company I could raise this with transport focus, would they still assist with a third party retailer ?

You bought the ticket from the retailer. They cannot fob you off with excuses as to HT being slow. That is their issue: you are entitled to a full and fee-free refund and there is no additional time allowed for, for the retailer to get their money back first.

To be honest, I wouldn't bother messing around with the retailer any more. Simply dispute the card transaction that you used to pay for the tickets. This costs the retailer additional fees, time and effort - a small recompense for the fact that they seem totally unable to grasp the very contract they have drafted.

 

[LA50041]

Thanks to you both. I thought I was right but didn’t want to go all guns blazing if I’d misunderstood something.

I’ll drop the retailer an email giving them notice that they have 7 days to refund or I will take the matter further.

The annoying thing is it’s only a few quid (less than a tenner) but it’s the principle

 

[gray1404]

You're welcome. Which retailer did you buy the tickets from please?

 

[LA50041]

You're welcome. Which retailer did you buy the tickets from please?

Loco2

 

[gray1404]

I wonder if they are waiting for Hull Trains to confirm the train was cancelled. Nevertheless it should not exceed the 28 days stated in the NRCoT for the retailer to refund you.

 

[LA50041]

I wonder if they are waiting for Hull Trains to confirm the train was cancelled. Nevertheless it should not exceed the 28 days stated in the NRCoT for the retailer to refund you.

Loco2 have responded to my emai.

They have, in thier words, unequivocal evidence of the cancellation of my train, but are claiming that the NRCoC do not apply to them as they are a third party ticketing agency.

Apparently, as i have accepted thier terms alongside the NRCoT when purchasing tickets, they are not liable for claims rarising from travel and thier only liability is to forward my claim to Hull Trains, and that 1.5 months is normal waiting time.

sounds like a cop out to me.
First and last time I use that retailler

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Loco2 have responded to my emai.

They have, in thier words, unequivocal evidence of the cancellation of my train, but are claiming that the NRCoC do not apply to them as they are a third party ticketing agency.

Apparently, as i have accepted thier terms alongside the NRCoT when purchasing tickets, they are not liable for claims rarising from travel and thier only liability is to forward my claim to Hull Trains, and that 1.5 months is normal waiting time.

sounds like a cop out to me.
First and last time I use that retailler

Simply do a chargeback on the card transaction, that's the easiest way to get your money back. And what a load of nonsense about the NRCoT not applying; they should know better than to spout absolute bullsh*t like that!

If they're trying to get themselves a reputation, they certainly have earned themselves one now, and a bad one at that!

 

[LA50041]

Simply do a chargeback on the card transaction, that's the easiest way to get your money back. And what a load of nonsense about the NRCoT not applying; they should know better than to spout absolute bullsh*t like that!

If they're trying to get themselves a reputation, they certainly have earned themselves one now, and a bad one at that!

I thought about a chargeback, but in their terms and conditions make this difficult -

"Any customer seeking to obtain a refund, reimbursement or compensation via their bank (chargeback) or PayPal (dispute) may be subject to an admin fee. Loco2 reserves the right to deduct a fee (£25.00 (€37.50, $40.00)) from any refund or compensation subsequently obtained to cover the administrative cost of defending or disputing a payment with our payment provider or your bank."

They certainly have got themselves a reputation with me, I would never use this company again even if they were the only retailer of train tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I thought about a chargeback, but in their terms and conditions make this difficult -

"Any customer seeking to obtain a refund, reimbursement or compensation via their bank (chargeback) or PayPal (dispute) may be subject to an admin fee. Loco2 reserves the right to deduct a fee (£25.00 (€37.50, $40.00)) from any refund or compensation subsequently obtained to cover the administrative cost of defending or disputing a payment with our payment provider or your bank."

They certainly have got themselves a reputation with me, I would never use this company again even if they were the only retailer of train tickets.

Ha, that's a new one on me. Certainly wouldn't fly! I say take it all the way; that's almost certainly an unfair term in the context of a consumer contract. The cheek - trying to charge you a fee because they don't understand how the contract they themselves agreed to works!

 

[gray1404]

If this is the case then Loco2 should not be selling National Rail tickets. They have sold a National Rail ticket and therefore should be refunding it under these circumstances. Is the £10 fee capped at £10 per ticket - i.e. no TOC or retailer can charge more then this. I would not worry for now about them trying to charge £25 if there is a chargeback. I would let the bank deal with that. I really think this is your next course of action PLUS a complaint to Transport Focus.

Others will know if there is a way in which Loco2's rights to sell National Rail tickets can be taken from them (I assume they require a licence) if they are not adhering to the NRCoT.

Chargeback can be very difficult and sometimes very easy with the banks in my experience. I have had them refund things fast and other times refuse and drag their heels requesting documentation that I simply do not have. I find it easier to do a chargeback with Barclaycard (who often but it right on the phone first time) then I do with Nationwide.

 

[furlong]

NRCoT:

30.3. Your refund application will be processed without undue delay and any refund due will be paid within 14 days of your claim being agreed by the Train Company. Our target is to process all claims within one month of receipt.

If you believe there was undue delay - likely, given that there is no disagreement on the fact of the cancellation - then I suggest the next step would be to send loco2 a letter before action.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

NRCoT:


If you believe there was undue delay - likely, given that there is no disagreement on the fact of the cancellation - then I suggest the next step would be to send loco2 a letter before action.

@LA50041 If you do want to proceed with this rather than with a chargeback, I'm happy to proof read or draft an LBA.

 

[gray1404]

There wouldn't be any harm would there in the OP commencing a chargeback?

 

[Wolfie]

NRCoT:


If you believe there was undue delay - likely, given that there is no disagreement on the fact of the cancellation - then I suggest the next step would be to send loco2 a letter before action.

Absolutely. LBA then MCOL...watch them squirm when they realise that under the small claims stream they are liable for their legal costs...and l can't see any Court wearing their half-assed clause.
In slightly slower time kick off the processes to get them stripped of the right to retail train tickets and also their right to process debit and credit card transactions. If l was a betting person l would imagine that their half assed legalise breaches their contracts with Visa and MasterCard and, in the case of credit card transactions over £100, very possibly UK law too...

 

[Wolfie]

The alternative is to proceed with the chargeback and if they are dumb enough to charge a fee complain like crazy to your bank while in parallel issuing an LBA over the fee ..

 

[Wolfie]

Thinking about it, as l understand it your bank makes the chargeback payment to you and then seeks reimbursement from the retailer. If they make their stupid charge they can only do so against the same card in which case you make a further chargeback for the unauthorised charge that they have made... That could carry on for a bit before the bank replaces your card (which means that they can't make any more charges) and probably moves to stop the retailer having any banking facilities...

 

[reb0118]

As an aside. If a cancellation results in a significant delay that would result in 100% of the ticket cost returned as compensation via a delay repay scheme, if applicable, then would that not be an easier way to claim?

In any case I thought it was possible to obtain an immediate refund at the station booking office in case of cancellation regardless of where the ticket was issued - or I'm I being naïve? (Things get complex when the train is provided by one TOC, the booking office by another, and the ticket retailed from a third party).

Have you contacted Hull Trains direct to see what they can offer? I do realise that your contract is with Loco2 and that they should be sorting out the problem timeously, but as it was the cancellation of the train (again this may be due to reasons outwith Hull Trains) that was the cause of this grief, then a non accusatory letter or email enquiring about compensation (NB not a refund) may result in a goodwill payment.

On a similar vein I had a previous issue with a hotel charging me for a cancelled booking (on numerous occasions) I received refunds from the hotel eventually (minus foreign transaction fees) AND compensation from the booking agent (HRS.com who were very helpful) of the original charge. I had originally attempted to obtain a chargeback via my credit card company to no avail - even after escalating the matter - due to the fact that I had a "history" (their words not mine) with the hotel because I had booked a room via a third party website.

Good luck in your endeavours.

 

[LA50041]

NRCoT:
If you believe there was undue delay - likely, given that there is no disagreement on the fact of the cancellation - then I suggest the next step would be to send loco2 a letter before action.

@LA50041 If you do want to proceed with this rather than with a chargeback, I'm happy to proof read or draft an LBA.

There wouldn't be any harm would there in the OP commencing a chargeback?

Many thanks all for your kind offers off support/advice/assistance.

I have recieved an email today from Loco2 saying they have pulled some strings and have secured my refund from Hull Trains.
They are also bleating on about how they didnt make any money on my transatcion etc etc. It really doesnt matter to me whether they make money or not.

Well I have learned a valuable lesson out of this, booking with third party retailers, especially Loco2, is not worthwhile if it gives less rights if things go wrong. I'll stick to buying tickets from TOC's in future.

Again, Thanks for everybodys support.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Many thanks all for your kind offers off support/advice/assistance.

I have recieved an email today from Loco2 saying they have pulled some strings and have secured my refund from Hull Trains.
They are also bleating on about how they didnt make any money on my transatcion etc etc. It really doesnt matter to me whether they make money or not.

Well I have learned a valuable lesson out of this, booking with third party retailers, especially Loco2, is not worthwhile if it gives less rights if things go wrong. I'll stick to buying tickets from TOC's in future.

Again, Thanks for everybodys support.

There are certain third party retailers which I think are far more reliable than the rest. In particular, TrainSplit is viewed upon highly in the forum, and this is a well-earned reputation in my experience. Just the other day I had to submit a pair of Advance tickets for refund, as there had been disruption and I decided not to travel.

I went online, filled in a form in about 2 minutes, printed it off and posted the tickets at 5pm. The following day I received an email at about midday confirming that they had received the tickets, and that the refund was successful so it would be only take a few days for the transaction to be refunded to my card (this being a limitation of the banks' systems).

In terms of the ease of refunding a paper ticket bought online, I think that's just about the best I've ever experienced.

So I wouldn't write off all third party retailers because of the utter shambles of one.

And the fact that they have not made any money on the transaction is indeed none of your business: those are the terms they signed up to when they sold the tickets, and so they can like it or lump it! It's very, very cheeky to go on about not making any money on the tickets when it is them, in effect, who have breached the contract (even if from a financial standpoint they are losing out).

 

[Bertie the bus]

In any case I thought it was possible to obtain an immediate refund at the station booking office in case of cancellation regardless of where the ticket was issued - or I'm I being naïve? (Things get complex when the train is provided by one TOC, the booking office by another, and the ticket retailed from a third party).

Not naïve, just out of date. You could theoretically get an immediate refund at the station booking office regardless of where you purchased the ticket but the introduction of the NRCoT put an end to it. I say theoretically because they wouldn't always issue you one and tried to fob you off.

 

[Clip]

In slightly slower time kick off the processes to get them stripped of the right to retail train tickets and also their right to process debit and credit card transactions.

Its a bit extreme for what is possibly the first instance ive heard of Loco2 doing something wrong yet you want to strip them already of the right to sell tickets?

 

[gray1404]

I do think Loco2 need taking to task for their conduct here. How many other people do they fob off who are entitled to refunds and get away with it.

 

[krus_aragon]

They are also bleating on about how they didnt make any money on my transatcion etc etc.

That's a line I'm more used to hearing from eBay sellers in the 8(?) day window they have to respond to a refund request before you can call in eBay's arbitrators. (Typically to the accompaniment of successive offers of "would a 10% refund be alright? No? What about 20%? Maybe 50%? You can keep the faulty goods too!")

 

[LA50041]

There are certain third party retailers which I think are far more reliable than the rest. In particular, TrainSplit is viewed upon highly in the forum, and this is a well-earned reputation in my experience. Just the other day I had to submit a pair of Advance tickets for refund, as there had been disruption and I decided not to travel.

I went online, filled in a form in about 2 minutes, printed it off and posted the tickets at 5pm. The following day I received an email at about midday confirming that they had received the tickets, and that the refund was successful so it would be only take a few days for the transaction to be refunded to my card (this being a limitation of the banks' systems).

In terms of the ease of refunding a paper ticket bought online, I think that's just about the best I've ever experienced.

So I wouldn't write off all third party retailers because of the utter shambles of one.

And the fact that they have not made any money on the transaction is indeed none of your business: those are the terms they signed up to when they sold the tickets, and so they can like it or lump it! It's very, very cheeky to go on about not making any money on the tickets when it is them, in effect, who have breached the contract (even if from a financial standpoint they are losing out).

True, I shouldnt tar all third party retailers with the same brush due to the poor service from one. I will look into trainsplit next time I book tickets

 

[SickyNicky]

As an aside to the main issue here, it's worth pointing out that third party retailers do, in fact, lose money when we issue a refund in this manner. That's because there are certain unrecoverable fees that we have paid connected to the issuing of the ticket. We look at this pragmatically. We feel that the customer experience is more important, and so we take the loss. The chances are higher that the customer will come back again if the customer service experience is good. And repeat customers are the most important asset for any business.

 

[Wolfie]

As an aside to the main issue here, it's worth pointing out that third party retailers do, in fact, lose money when we issue a refund in this manner. That's because there are certain unrecoverable fees that we have paid connected to the issuing of the ticket. We look at this pragmatically. We feel that the customer experience is more important, and so we take the loss. The chances are higher that the customer will come back again if the customer service experience is good. And repeat customers are the most important asset for any business.

A sensible rational policy which should assist in building a business in the long-term.