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Train numbers should be displayed in public timetables and information systems

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Ken H

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I started the bus number thread and never expected the response.

so as a spin off from that, why dont trains show reporting numbers or route numbers? Especially if they were in public timetables and reservation tickets.

You could then be sure that you were on the right train.

So - thoughts on making train numbers public, please.
 
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_toommm_

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I started the bus number thread and never expected the response.

so as a spin off from that, why dont trains show reporting numbers or route numbers? Especially if they were in public timetables and reservation tickets.

You could then be sure that you were on the right train.

So - thoughts on making train numbers public, please.

I guess we'd be going full circle then, as I believe trains used to show headcodes on the front.

It might be worth having something like the Retail Service ID on advance tickets. For example, the 16:57 Euston to Glasgow would show VT6240 on the ticket, with the 17:30 showing VT6260.

It would make sense on Northern services from Leeds to Manchester Vic, of which there are an abundance of attractively-priced advances. For example, you've got two departures within two minutes of each other: the 19:19 (NT4184) and the 19:21 (NT4186).
 

Bletchleyite

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I've never understood why we don't show "flight numbers" in this manner. As you say it would make things easier to be sure you are on the correct train.
 

mmh

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What's the benefit of including an ID number to the passenger? They already have the simplest identifier possible, the time - everyone understands that!
 

Ken H

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What's the benefit of including an ID number to the passenger? They already have the simplest identifier possible, the time - everyone understands that!
So i havent got a clue about geography and I have a reservation on a train to Birmingham. I look at the PIS, and there are trains to southampton, taunton and exeter. If my reservation said 1W23 and the PIS said 1W23 there would be no confusion. Airlines use numbers, not times and destinations.
 

PR1Berske

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I've never understood why we don't show "flight numbers" in this manner. As you say it would make things easier to be sure you are on the correct train.
That's very European. Our rail system is not, by any stretch, European.
 

alistairlees

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This would indeed be very sensible and could only help make passengers more confident. But there is no central authority / guiding mind specifying this, so we have just missed the opportunity with thousands of new trains. Unless they are expensively retrofitted.

Southern region trains used to carry two character route codes, on the front, which were very useful for identifying an approaching train. 22 for Hastings route for instance.
 

Peter C

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What's the benefit of including an ID number to the passenger? They already have the simplest identifier possible, the time - everyone understands that!
There are probably countless incidents every year when people who perhaps don't commute or use the train often accidentally book a ticket for "the six-thirty" in a rail system which (I think) has been 24-hours for the best part of 60 years. Having even the headcode on display would help - sometimes the screens on the sides of the units (IETs in particular) have failed and said "00:00 [next stop]" (in the daytime) and the like, showing how a digital system could break, so maybe having a sign in the cab window closest to the station entrance at termini (e.g. the rear) and a couple in carriage windows? Like HST window labels. But just the headcode. So it could potentially be reused. Just an idea.

-Peter
 

bionic

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Virgin Pendolinos put the headcode on the doors, but don't advertise it to punters on tickets, pis screens or anywhere else.
 

bobbyrail

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But a headcode is NOT unique to a specific train or service, these "headcodes" can be re-used multiple times within a 24 hour or weekly period, they can be used at the same time up and down the country, Many who want a de-fragmented railway have not realised yet that this can't be possible when these codes can be used at the same time within several operations.
 

Surreytraveller

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But a headcode is NOT unique to a specific train or service, these "headcodes" can be re-used multiple times within a 24 hour or weekly period, they can be used at the same time up and down the country, Many who want a de-fragmented railway have not realised yet that this can't be possible when these codes can be used at the same time within several operations.
But you won't (or at least shouldn't!) get two trains with the same headcode at the same time at the same place
 

johnr57

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As a youngster (in Hull) i used to delight when i saw a 1A headcode - it seemed to have an air of authority, a cut above your average train, though not really OT i see value in giving a service a character, a visible identity, a defined purpose in its life

im now reading that back thinking - how sad is that guy!
 

whoosh

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But a headcode is NOT unique to a specific train or service, these "headcodes" can be re-used multiple times within a 24 hour or weekly period, they can be used at the same time up and down the country, Many who want a de-fragmented railway have not realised yet that this can't be possible when these codes can be used at the same time within several operations.

You are sort of right. The four digit code can indeed be used so many hours apart in the same part of the country, or at the same time in different parts of the country.
However, they are individual. They actually have a two letter suffix in the train planning system which IS unique.
 

Peter C

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You are sort of right. The four digit code can indeed be used so many hours apart in the same part of the country, or at the same time in different parts of the country.
However, they are individual. They actually have a two letter suffix in the train planning system which IS unique.
Ditto.

-Peter
 

6Gman

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What's the benefit of including an ID number to the passenger? They already have the simplest identifier possible, the time - everyone understands that!

There are, I believe, two xx.01 departures from Crewe to London Euston each hour ...
 

mmh

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There are, I believe, two xx.01 departures from Crewe to London Euston each hour ...

Which is simply fixed by changing one of them to be xx.00, or xx.02, in the public timetable.

Having plenty of experience of Crewe when there are 3 simultaneous departures to Euston and mass confusion due to platform alterations, I'm pretty confident yet another piece of information would be a hindrance not a help.
 

Ianno87

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The idea of route/train numbers just smacks of a solution looking for a problem to solve.

More information for passengers to process just means more confusion.

When travelling in Europe, I have *never* found the train number a useful piece of information.
 

6Gman

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The idea of route/train numbers just smacks of a solution looking for a problem to solve.

More information for passengers to process just means more confusion.

When travelling in Europe, I have *never* found the train number a useful piece of information.

I always found the distinction between the 91, the 92. and the 93 on the Bournemouth line helpful.
 

6Gman

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Which is simply fixed by changing one of them to be xx.00, or xx.02, in the public timetable.

Having plenty of experience of Crewe when there are 3 simultaneous departures to Euston and mass confusion due to platform alterations, I'm pretty confident yet another piece of information would be a hindrance not a help.

Or

"Train 9M53 Platform 5; Train 1A68 Platform 3"
 

6Gman

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Oh yes, that'll reduce confusion!

It will if it's printed on their reservations/ advance tickets; shown in the timetable etc

The two digit codes on the Southern were widely recognised by passengers.
 

PeterC

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Route numbers on suburban trains to show different stopping patterns? Something that I have always found helpful when it has been done, especially at stations with no PIS of any sort.

Train numbers on individual inter city services? I can see an arguement for reservations but I am personally agnostic on the matter.
 

Ken H

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so route numbers for locals, headcode/reporting numbers for inter city (whatever that means)

So from Leeds you could have 1 for Harrogate, 2 for Ilkley, 3 for Skipton, 4 carlisle, 5 lancaster and so on. Same number both ways.

Some laser printed big numbers on A4 sheets, laminated and in a ring binder and held in the cab window somehow.

Trent-barton have specially liveried buses for each route. so calverton connection services have black buses. Is there a case for route liveried trains?
 

tbtc

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I can see the benefit on routes where there are a lot of advanced tickets, to help passengers get on the right departure.

The problem is the large number of "non-standard" services that we have. For example, there's a lot of services that we think of as regular hourly routes. But over the course of the day, these don't all have the same stopping patterns.

Take the longest Cross Country corridor. Generally Edinburgh to Plymouth, with around half the services starting at Glasgow (but some services to/from Aberdeen/ Dundee/ Penzance etc). Would all services on that route have the same number? In which case, how do you deal with services that stop at Berwick/ Alnmouth/ Burton/ Tamworth? Would the Aberdeen services have the same route number as the Glasgow services? Including the one that runs non-stop through Dunfermline (avoiding the regular Kirkcaldy stop) for route learning purposes?

If my regular bus into town is the 37 then I can be pretty confident what stops its going to serve. But a train service can vary from one departure to the next. Taking the Harrogate example above, at the moment there are services from Leeds that terminate at Harrogate/ Knaresborough/ York... some of which run fast to Harrogate, some of which serve local stations (there can be six/ two/ one intermediate station between Leeds and Harrogate). Should these all have the same route number? Or do you need three numbers for most Northern services (fast to Harrogate, slow to Knaresborough, slow to York) plus a different number for LNER (which don't stop at Hornbeam Park)?

I'm not trying to sound awkward - it's just that if you "simplify" things then they need to be properly simple. Someone who boards a regular "37" at Leeds station to their home station should be confident that an earlier/later departure branded as "37" will serve the same stations.

I think it'd work fine on simple corridors like Merseyrail, where almost everything stops at every station (two "numbers' required for Chester services, given the fast/slow versions) but I think that you'd generally need to have simpler timetables without as many deviations. Which then begs the question of whether it's worth either having *every* Edinburgh - Plymouth service stopping at Burton or *no* Edinburgh - Plymouth stopping at Burton, for the sake of a simpler route diagram.

I can see arguments both ways, but you need to consider the everyday passenger who would rely on the route number to identify a service from A to B (and potentially find themselves on one of the services per day that runs directly from A to C, omitting B)
 

Bletchleyite

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Route numbers on suburban trains to show different stopping patterns? Something that I have always found helpful when it has been done, especially at stations with no PIS of any sort.

I'm certainly in support of that (which is a slightly different concept from "flight numbers") but it does require a proper, 100% consistent Taktfahrplan to work properly (e.g. your LN3 going south from Bletchley always calls at all stations except Apsley/Kings Langley/Bushey). Something I also support, of course!

The South Wales Metro, once the new stock arrives, would be a good place for this concept.

VTWC, who do (pretty much) operate a consistent Taktfahrplan, used the concept for a while but seemed to give up when they lost XC.
 
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Mag_seven

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When travelling in Europe, I have *never* found the train number a useful piece of information.

On the contrary I have found it very useful particularly when trying to book seats at a foreign booking office where the booking clerk's English might not be very good or non existent. The train number written down to show the booking clerk is very useful in these circumstances.
 
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