Routing question

[juliet_papa]

Evening all,

Looking after some help regarding which routes I can take with my annual season ticket, I've had a good look at the routing guides, but I can't get my head around it.

My season ticket is from Orpington station to West Hampstead StationS. Not including LU.

I know that I can go via London Bridge, Herne Hill or Catford. And I understand that I can break my journey at any point. But I would like to know if I can take any of the following routes, and if there's any other routes that I missed.

-Orpington to Charing Cross, then break my journey there.
-Orpington to Victoria, then break my journey there.
-Orpington to Lewisham, Change to Denmark Hill then continue from there via Blackfriars.
-Orpington > New Cross, LO to West Hampstead via Highbury and Islington
-Orpington > Denmark Hill, LO to West Hampstead via Clapham Jn.

Most of those are more curiosity rather than anything, but the main thing that I would like to know, is if I can exit/break my journey at Charing X/Waterloo East or Victoria.

I've asked SE if I could break my journey at either Charing X or Victoria, and they said I can't go to Victoria but I could change at Charing X but not exit/break my journey there. Which I thought was odd, not only because I can break my journey anywhere within the valid route, but I may have to exit via the gateline to change to/from certain platforms at Charing X.

NB: I don't require LU as part of my season ticket, as I have travel concessions on TfL services.

Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

Evening all,

Looking after some help regarding which routes I can take with my annual season ticket, I've had a good look at the routing guides, but I can't get my head around it.

My season ticket is from Orpington station to West Hampstead StationS. Not including LU.

I know that I can go via London Bridge, Herne Hill or Catford. And I understand that I can break my journey at any point. But I would like to know if I can take any of the following routes, and if there's any other routes that I missed.

There are a couple of others you might not have considered. So I'll list each map you can use and the routes which these permit. First of all for routes to reach London Bridge or Blackfriars:

• Map FA: via Catford and Denmark Hill, then either:
  • to Clapham Jn using the Overground, then to Waterloo and onwards to Blackfriars via Waterloo East and London Bridge
  • via Elephant & Castle to Blackfriars
• Map FC: via Bromley South, Birkbeck, Crystal Palace and Streatham Hill to Clapham Jn and then as per the first subparagraph of map FA
• Map FH: via Bromley South and Penge East to Herne Hill, then via Loughborough Jn and Elephant & Castle to Blackfriars
• Map FT: via Bromley South, Birkbeck, Crystal Palace and Tulse Hill, then either:
  • to London Bridge via East Dulwich, Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey
  • to London Blackfriars via Herne Hill, Loughborough Jn and Elephant & Castle
• Map FV: via Grove Park (in theory you could go divert via Bickley & St Mary Cray to get there) and then either:
  • to London Bridge - whether via Lewisham, with a diversion via Ladywell theoretically being permitted, or avoiding Lewisham
  • to Blackfriars via Lewisham, Nunhead, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill and Elephant & Castle
• Map TU: to London Bridge via Bromley South (in theory a diversion via Sevenoaks, Otford and Swanley to get there would be permitted but good luck getting through any of those barriers...), then via Beckenham Jn and the rarely used curve to New Beckenham and up via Ladywell, then either via Lewisham or avoiding it
• Map VR: to Blackfriars via Bromley South with the optional diversion as above, then via Shortlands, Catford Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Elephant & Castle

The only other route permitted by the "within 3 miles of the shortest route" rule is a slight diversion from New Cross to London Bridge via Surrey Quays and New Cross Gate.

On the north side of London the only map to West Hampstead Thameslink is MI, which just permits the direct Thameslink route via Kentish Town.

On the north side of London the mapped routes to West Hampstead (i.e. Overground station) are CO+OV, EN+OV and HI, all of which would require a non-permissible Underground transfer across London to reach Liverpool St, Euston or Moorgate respectively. So none of these maps can be used in practice, given your ticket's routing.

However the range of routes to West Hampstead (Overground) within 3 miles of the shortest route are very useful. In addition to the above mapped routes they permit:

• via the Thameslink core to Finsbury Park, then Great Northern to Highbury & Islington, then the Overground
• the Overground from New Cross via Highbury & Islington (this one is the absolute shortest National Rail-only route to West Hampstead)
• the Overground (or Southern for the first few stops) from Clapham Jn via Willesden Jn

-Orpington to Charing Cross, then break my journey there.

Not permitted beyond Waterloo East as far as I can tell - you're only valid beyond there to Charing Cross by virtue of the mapped routes, which assume the use of fixed links to cross London if not using Thameslink or the Elizabeth line. The only fixed links from Charing Cross is the Tube, which your ticket doesn't permit.

There could be an argument that you can still travel to Charing Cross and then pay for the Tube (or use your pass) separately but it's not an argument I'd like to make.

-Orpington to Victoria, then break my journey there.

For the same reasons as above, not valid towards Victoria beyond Clapham Jn (or strictly speaking Battersea Park on the basis of the "Parliamentary" Overground service that runs there twice a day).

-Orpington to Lewisham, Change to Denmark Hill then continue from there via Blackfriars.

Yep that's fine - map FV as above.

-Orpington > New Cross, LO to West Hampstead via Highbury and Islington

That's the shortest route, so fine as above.

-Orpington > Denmark Hill, LO to West Hampstead via Clapham Jn.

Mapped as far as Clapham Jn under map FA and then within 3 miles of the shortest route as above.

Most of those are more curiosity rather than anything, but the main thing that I would like to know, is if I can exit/break my journey at Charing X/Waterloo East or Victoria.

I've asked SE if I could break my journey at either Charing X or Victoria, and they said I can't go to Victoria but I could change at Charing X but not exit/break my journey there. Which I thought was odd, not only because I can break my journey anywhere within the valid route, but I may have to exit via the gateline to change to/from certain platforms at Charing X.

NB: I don't require LU as part of my season ticket, as I have travel concessions on TfL services.

Thank you.

As above, Waterloo East is fine but I think Charing X and Victoria are a no.

Bear in mind that there may be easements affecting the above validity - I didn't check for all of them but a Ctrl+F search of the PDF may give a reasonable indication of any restrictions.

Also, my experience of barrier staff at many Overground and inner London stations is that they are typically security-type staff with little to no knowledge of almost anything to do with rail ticketing. Most people just use Oyster or contactless so they rarely come across anything complex.

Therefore, don't be too surprised if they wrongly tell you your ticket isn't valid - even on some of the more obvious routes. If this happens, and a polite discussion doesn't get you anywhere, the least worst option is probabl tapping in/out using an Oyster or contactless card just to get through the barriers.

You'll be charged a maximum fare due to the incomplete journey, but should be able to claim this back from the relevant TOC after a complaint. If you face any difficulties in recovering it, you can come back to us and we can advise further.

 

[juliet_papa]

There are a couple of others you might not have considered. So I'll list each map you can use and the routes which these permit. First of all for routes to reach London Bridge or Blackfriars:

• Map FA: via Catford and Denmark Hill, then either:
  • to Clapham Jn using the Overground, then to Waterloo and onwards to Blackfriars via Waterloo East and London Bridge
  • via Elephant & Castle to Blackfriars
• Map FC: via Bromley South, Birkbeck, Crystal Palace and Streatham Hill to Clapham Jn and then as per the first subparagraph of map FA
• Map FH: via Bromley South and Penge East to Herne Hill, then via Loughborough Jn and Elephant & Castle to Blackfriars
• Map FT:via Bromley South, Birkbeck, Crystal Palace and Tulse Hill, then either:
  • to London Bridge via East Dulwich, Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey
  • to London Blackfriars via Herne Hill, Loughborough Jn and Elephant & Castle
• Map FV: via Grove Park (in theory you could go divert via Bickley & St Mary Cray to get there) and then either:
  • to London Bridge - whether via Lewisham, with a diversion via Ladywell theoretically being permitted, or avoiding Lewisham
  • to Blackfriars via Lewisham, Nunhead, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill and Elephant & Castle
• Map TU: to London Bridge via Bromley South (in theory a diversion via Sevenoaks, Otford and Swanley to get there would be permitted but good luck getting through any of those barriers...), then via Beckenham Jn and the rarely used curve to New Beckenham and up via Ladywell, then either via Lewisham or avoiding it
• Map VR: to Blackfriars via Bromley South with the optional diversion as above, then via Shortlands, Catford Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Elephant & Castle

The only other route permitted by the "within 3 miles of the shortest route" rule is a slight diversion from New Cross to London Bridge via Surrey Quays and New Cross Gate.

On the north side of London the only map to West Hampstead Thameslink is MI, which just permits the direct Thameslink route via Kentish Town.

On the north side of London the mapped routes to West Hampstead (i.e. Overground station) are CO+OV, EN+OV and HI, all of which would require a non-permissible Underground transfer across London to reach Liverpool St, Euston or Moorgate respectively. So none of these maps can be used in practice, given your ticket's routing.

However the range of routes to West Hampstead (Overground) within 3 miles of the shortest route are very useful. In addition to the above mapped routes they permit:

• via the Thameslink core to Finsbury Park, then Great Northern to Highbury & Islington, then the Overground
• the Overground from New Cross via Highbury & Islington (this one is the absolute shortest National Rail-only route to West Hampstead)
• the Overground (or Southern for the first few stops) from Clapham Jn via Willesden Jn

Not permitted beyond Waterloo East as far as I can tell - you're only valid beyond there to Charing Cross by virtue of the mapped routes, which assume the use of fixed links to cross London if not using Thameslink or the Elizabeth line. The only fixed links from Charing Cross is the Tube, which your ticket doesn't permit.

There could be an argument that you can still travel to Charing Cross and then pay for the Tube (or use your pass) separately but it's not an argument I'd like to make.


For the same reasons as above, not valid towards Victoria beyond Clapham Jn (or strictly speaking Battersea Park on the basis of the "Parliamentary" Overground service that runs there twice a day).


Yep that's fine - map FV as above.


That's the shortest route, so fine as above.


Mapped as far as Clapham Jn under map FA and then within 3 miles of the shortest route as above.


As above, Waterloo East is fine but I think Charing X and Victoria are a no.

Bear in mind that there may be easements affecting the above validity - I didn't check for all of them but a Ctrl+F search of the PDF may give a reasonable indication of any restrictions.

Also, my experience of barrier staff at many Overground and inner London stations is that they are typically security-type staff with little to no knowledge of almost anything to do with rail ticketing. Most people just use Oyster or contactless so they rarely come across anything complex.

Therefore, don't be too surprised if they wrongly tell you your ticket isn't valid - even on some of the more obvious routes. If this happens, and a polite discussion doesn't get you anywhere, the least worst option is probabl tapping in/out using an Oyster or contactless card just to get through the barriers.

You'll be charged a maximum fare due to the incomplete journey, but should be able to claim this back from the relevant TOC after a complaint. If you face any difficulties in recovering it, you can come back to us and we can advise further.

That’s wonderful, thank you so much.

I just had a look at the route easements and 701011 states that “Journeys to London Thameslink destinations are not valid via London Canon Street or London Charing Cross. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.” So the advice given by SE was incorrect.

Thanks again. Is good to know exactly what I can and can’t do.

 

[Watershed]

That’s wonderful, thank you so much.

I just had a look at the route easements and 701011 states that “Journeys to London Thameslink destinations are not valid via London Canon Street or London Charing Cross. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.” So the advice given by SE was incorrect.

Thanks again. Is good to know exactly what I can and can’t do.

No problem!

Theoretically the wording of 701011 doesn't apply to your situation as your ticket is to West Hampstead Stations rather than London Thameslink. But the intention is clear and as mentioned in my original post, I don't think you can travel via Cannon Street, Victoria or Charing Cross anyway.