Sadiq khan threatens to take 'Boris' buses off the road

[Surreyman]

Article in the Telegraph: -

Sadiq Khan threatens to take Boris buses off London's roads in funding row​

Boris Johnson's fleet of New Routemasters in jeopardy as TfL seeks further Government financing

ByOliver Gill, CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT17 January 2022 • 2:26pm


The New Routemaster hit London's roads in 2012 under then-mayor Boris Johnson CREDIT: Tony Kyriacou / Rex Features
Sadiq Khan is threatening to scrap one of the biggest legacies of Boris Johnson’s time as London mayor as a row over funding the capital’s public transport system escalates.
The mayor says “Boris buses” are at risk of coming off the roads because Transport for London cannot afford to refurbish them.
Meanwhile, plans to electrify all of London’s buses will need to be delayed until at least 2037 because of Westminster’s refusal to fund TfL properly, Mr Khan claimed.
The first Boris bus, or New Routemaster as they are formally called, went into service in 2012 and became a symbol of Mr Johnson’s second term as London mayor.
The double-decker vehicle paid homage to the original, which began operating in the capital in 1956.
As they were rolled out, Mr Johnson said the hop-on-hop-off buses were "the most high tech piece of motoring technology I've ever seen".

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Article in the Telegraph: -

I suppose the most notable point about that article is that it was written by a business correspondent and not a transport correspondent...

Still, it comes across as political scaremongering (haven’t we had more than enough of that over the last 2 years?) by Sadiq Khan, trying to leverage the DfT into further financial bailouts for London’s transport networks.

As for refurbishment, surely they don’t all need doing at once?

 

[MotCO]

I also suspect it is Sadiq Khan trying to slay one of Boris's ghosts. Or pushing Boris to either say his buses are not worth refurbishing, or forcing him to pay up or else his buses will be no more.

In reality, there must be a residual value on TfL's books, so I don't think they will be able to afford to just scrap them. So maybe a hollow threat from Sadiq.

Interesting to see who will win. Popcorn at the ready.

 

[DanNCL]

Labour mayor of London wants to get rid of one of the biggest legacies of their Tory predecessor (who just happens to be the current Prime Minister), now there's a surprise...

Boris did the same to legacies left by Ken Livingston, and no doubt whoever follows Sadiq Khan as London Mayor will seek to get rid of some of his legacies. I suspect this is entirely political.

 

[richw]

In reality, there must be a residual value on TfL's books, so I don't think they will be able to afford to just scrap them.

Pretty much everywhere else double deckers are over 15 years on accounting.

 

[Starmill]

The older of the New Bus for London vehicles are approximately 10 years into their 14 year service life.

So what did people expect to be done with them between now and 2026?

How many in total are there?

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

I also suspect it is Sadiq Khan trying to slay one of Boris's ghosts. Or pushing Boris to either say his buses are not worth refurbishing, or forcing him to pay up or else his buses will be no more.

In reality, there must be a residual value on TfL's books, so I don't think they will be able to afford to just scrap them. So maybe a hollow threat from Sadiq.

Interesting to see who will win. Popcorn at the ready.

Can’t imagine they have much secondhand value.

Not sure about ghosts but there are echoes of the AEC Merlin dalliance. At least the DMS found a ready after-market...

 

[Starmill]

Can’t imagine they have much secondhand value.

It's very difficult to see them getting any sort of use in regular service outside of London. Perhaps one of the specialist operators might take them at a knock down price? Or they get chucked in with some of the beaten up battered old stuff you see on occasional contract work, including of course rail replacement.

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably the sight of a NB4L in a scrapyard after ten years (or even fourteen years) will give rise to a greater outcry than 'conventional' buses of the same age. I would imagine the general public think these are going to have a longer life.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably the sight of a NB4L in a scrapyard after ten years (or even fourteen years) will give rise to a greater outcry than 'conventional' buses of the same age. I would imagine the general public think these are going to have a longer life.

I think that a lot of people probably think that a bus 'lasts' for longer than it really does.

Some of these vehicles get worked hard.

 

[MotCO]

Can’t imagine they have much secondhand value.

Not sure about ghosts but there are echoes of the AEC Merlin dalliance. At least the DMS found a ready after-market...

The only use I can see is as tourist buses due to their extra length, but I don't think there is a need for 1,000 tourist buses!

Pretty much everywhere else double deckers are over 15 years on accounting.

Indeed, and if the buses are only 10 years old, unless the 15 years accounting charge is split beteeen 10 years main (high) lease and 5 years subsidiary (low) lease, there is still a fair chunk on the balance sheet to be written off if the buses sre not refurbished.

 

[Starmill]

The only use I can see is as tourist buses due to their extra length, but I don't think there is a need for 1,000 tourist buses!


Indeed, and if the buses are only 10 years old, unless the 15 years accounting charge is split beteeen 10 years main (high) lease and 5 years subsidiary (low) lease, there is still a fair chunk on the balance sheet to be written off if the buses sre not refurbished.

The articles from 2012 said that 14 years was their expected life. The first services were in February 2012. So some vehicles have got just four years to run.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

I think the sight of a NBFL trundling through Leeds/ Bradford/ Manchester/ Burnley/ Wherever on a school route with an independent operator is something we're very unlikely to ever see.

 

[Wolfie]

Article in the Telegraph: -

That's not a threat, getting rid of the junk heaps is the best news that l've heard all year.

 

[christopher]

They're non standard, awkward to maintain heaps of junk. Will be the best thing they've done it ages if they get rid.

 

[Horizon22]

I also suspect it is Sadiq Khan trying to slay one of Boris's ghosts. Or pushing Boris to either say his buses are not worth refurbishing, or forcing him to pay up or else his buses will be no more.

In reality, there must be a residual value on TfL's books, so I don't think they will be able to afford to just scrap them. So maybe a hollow threat from Sadiq.

Interesting to see who will win. Popcorn at the ready.

Indeed - there's a huge amount of political posturing with practically anything London transport right now, like a game of 3D chess between Tory Westminster & Labour London. They're not great buses, but still there's more to it than just that.

 

[Robertj21a]

No doubt largely political by Khan at present but these buses are non-standard and most will never get used elsewhere.
Probably best to just let them wither and die.

 

[Andyh82]

The older of the New Bus for London vehicles are approximately 10 years into their 14 year service life.

So what did people expect to be done with them between now and 2026?

How many in total are there?

With them being a bespoke bus for London that won’t have much resale value, I would have expected them to get at least 3 ‘terms’ out of them, so that being 21 years, which would take us to the sort of age deckers start to get scrapped in general

But that is ignoring the fact that they were supposed to be an ‘iconic’ bus like the routemaster, that was presumably meant to be refurbished inside and out, and under the bonnet, and last much longer than that

I have noticed they look much more ‘bashed about’ than normal buses of a similar age, as the private companies would have refurbished and repainted a Gemini or Enviro 400 when they were cascaded down to another secondary route. The NBfL’s don’t seem to have seen a paint brush since they were in the factory

 

[carlberry]

With them being a bespoke bus for London that won’t have much resale value, I would have expected them to get at least 3 ‘terms’ out of them, so that being 21 years, which would take us to the sort of age deckers start to get scrapped in general

But that is ignoring the fact that they were supposed to be an ‘iconic’ bus like the routemaster, that was presumably meant to be refurbished inside and out, and under the bonnet, and last much longer than that

I have noticed they look much more ‘bashed about’ than normal buses of a similar age, as the private companies would have refurbished and repainted a Gemini or Enviro 400 when they were cascaded down to another secondary route. The NBfL’s don’t seem to have seen a paint brush since they were in the factory

Nowadays deckers in London tend to have gone by the 15 year mark either cascaded to other parts of the major groups or to be used for schools buses. The original Routemaster was one of the last bus types that were designed for the mechanics to be easily refurbished, more modern types are not expected to last as long as they're not as easy to take to pieces.

These do have a unique combination of problems for any subsequent owner:
They're too tall (standard London height however it reduces the number of uses outside London).
They're too long (even for London), again it reduces the number of uses.
The mechanics are too complex. Most first generation hybrids have the same issue however when they're on a standard chassis it's viable to convert them to straight diesels which has happened with a lot of them. These are a unique design which might prove difficult. If a company comes up with a way of doing it however then at least they'll have a significant market!
The body is too complex. Having two staircases is a loss of seats and an additional playground for school children. The second door should be easy enough to remove, however the third is much more complex. The 'iconic' nature of the design means the spares are likely to be 'iconic' prices and replacing them with cheaper panels/glass isn't likely to be viable.

However none of the above would matter if their future life is being converted into wine bars/burger bars around the world which is a significant market for older British vehicles.

I assume that their ownership by TfL might effect when they're repainted etc, however I would have thought there would be some kind of minimum presentation standard that was required. The number that get vinyl coverings is also likely to effect how good the paint looks afterwards.

 

[MotCO]

Nowadays deckers in London tend to have gone by the 15 year mark either cascaded to other parts of the major groups or to be used for schools buses. The original Routemaster was one of the last bus types that were designed for the mechanics to be easily refurbished, more modern types are not expected to last as long as they're not as easy to take to pieces.

These do have a unique combination of problems for any subsequent owner:
They're too tall (standard London height however it reduces the number of uses outside London).
They're too long (even for London), again it reduces the number of uses.
The mechanics are too complex. Most first generation hybrids have the same issue however when they're on a standard chassis it's viable to convert them to straight diesels which has happened with a lot of them. These are a unique design which might prove difficult. If a company comes up with a way of doing it however then at least they'll have a significant market!
The body is too complex. Having two staircases is a loss of seats and an additional playground for school children. The second door should be easy enough to remove, however the third is much more complex. The 'iconic' nature of the design means the spares are likely to be 'iconic' prices and replacing them with cheaper panels/glass isn't likely to be viable.

However none of the above would matter if their future life is being converted into wine bars/burger bars around the world which is a significant market for older British vehicles.

I assume that their ownership by TfL might effect when they're repainted etc, however I would have thought there would be some kind of minimum presentation standard that was required. The number that get vinyl coverings is also likely to effect how good the paint looks afterwards.

I agree with a lot of what you say particularly about cascaded buses being repainted. LT often transfer buses to new owners on take up of contracts, do why would either company go to the expense of repainting them?

Also, if the hybrid gubbins are now old'school, is there any chance of converting them to battery power? There are two staircases to store the batteries under.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, if the hybrid gubbins are now old'school, is there any chance of converting them to battery power? There are two staircases to store the batteries under.

Theoretically yes, but conversions always bring complications. There is nothing in principle complex about the Class 230 or 769, but neither project has showered itself in glory and both seem likely to fade into relative obscurity compared with new kit.

 

[Snow1964]

With them being a bespoke bus for London that won’t have much resale value, I would have expected them to get at least 3 ‘terms’ out of them, so that being 21 years, which would take us to the sort of age deckers start to get scrapped in general

I have noticed they look much more ‘bashed about’ than normal buses of a similar age, as the private companies would have refurbished and repainted a Gemini or Enviro 400 when they were cascaded down to another secondary route. The NBfL’s don’t seem to have seen a paint brush since they were in the factory

I don’t think they have been repainted, except odd panels that have been repaired/ replaced. Probably because it is TfL’s responsibility to do it during the mid life work.

Regarding scrapping, none have been formally withdrawn, but about 40 are out of use for months, many with missing parts that have been used to patch up the others. (48 haven’t been used in 2022)

The Article was a repeat by Telegraph of a Press Release issued by Mayor of London yesterday

 

[stevenedin]

They could send some to Edinburgh as we actually have longer buses than that and they would fit in nicely here. Maybe they could divide them between all of the UK capital cities London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast it could be made to work and they wouldn’t go to waste.

 

[Flying Snail]

They could send some to Edinburgh as we actually have longer buses than that and they would fit in nicely here. Maybe they could divide them between all of the UK capital cities London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast it could be made to work and they wouldn’t go to waste.

As long as TfL or the treasury pay Lothian, Cardiff Bus and Translink compensation for the waste of money and resources in doing so then sure.

Bus services are (or at least in any sensible county should be) run for the benefit of the public, not as a political football, personal vanity project or enthusiast wheeze.

 

[Snow1964]

I agree with a lot of what you say particularly about cascaded buses being repainted. LT often transfer buses to new owners on take up of contracts, do why would either company go to the expense of repainting them?

Also, if the hybrid gubbins are now old'school, is there any chance of converting them to battery power? There are two staircases to store the batteries under.

One of them has been in Norfolk for most of 2021, aledgedly getting some sort of newer equipment to replace the now superseded hybrid gubbins. Don’t know if it successful, but not been returned yet.

 

[CN04NRJ]

They could send some to Edinburgh as we actually have longer buses than that and they would fit in nicely here. Maybe they could divide them between all of the UK capital cities London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast it could be made to work and they wouldn’t go to waste.

They're totally non standard to both municipals and Northern Ireland - low capacity, unreliable, difficult to maintain, no need for two doors nevermind three.... I can't be bothered going on as there's just so many reasons. I doubt any of these operators would take them even if they were offered for free - nevermind part with their own money to buy them.

 

[Snow1964]

Just done a check using London Vehicle finder

Following 48 buses not been used in 2022 (some not been in service for over 24 months)

LT 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 15, 18, 22, 48, 49, 96, 110, 116, 134, 149, 167, 173, 174, 177, 193, 243, 312, 317, 324, 319, 353, 355, 364, 373, 376, 392, 403, 406, 411, 415, 490, 491, 581, 599, 626, 643, 662, 670, 758, 918, 953, 954, 1000,

48 buses would have cost TfL about £17m to buy.
Even if book value only half that, it is still a lot of dead asset (and really the auditors should be insisting on any out of use for few months, to be written down to scrap value)

 

[edwin_m]

They could send some to Edinburgh as we actually have longer buses than that and they would fit in nicely here. Maybe they could divide them between all of the UK capital cities London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast it could be made to work and they wouldn’t go to waste.

If they did that HM Govt might even pay for the re-paint that is due. Provided it included a huge Union Jack.

 

[Flying Snail]

If they did that HM Govt might even pay for the re-paint that is due. Provided it included a huge Union Jack.

Well that would certainly be one way to recover the book value from the insurers, NBfL bonfires in West Belfast.

 

[Starmill]

Theoretically yes, but conversions always bring complications. There is nothing in principle complex about the Class 230 or 769, but neither project has showered itself in glory and both seem likely to fade into relative obscurity compared with new kit.

Indeed. As with bus conversions, both of those rail examples have produced relatively life-limited results. This of course isn't ideal because it might make it more expensive than new build on a whole life basis.