Services on the Shipley Triangle

[InkyScrolls]

As has been briefly on the May 2023 timetable changes thread, services from Bradford (Forster Square) to Skipton and Ilkley are reverting to hourly (from half-hourly) off-peak from May. Given how poor Bradford's transport links are in general (it has been referred to, with some justification, as Britain's worst-connected city), this seems something of a backward step, especially as the savings will be minor (Northern will still be paying for the same number of crews, units and paths, with only very small savings in maintenance costs). I've started this thread as a general place to discuss potential ways of changing/improving the service provided on 'the Triangle' - preferably without pie-in-the-sky ideas that will never come to fruition (e.g. through services from Ilkley to Preston via Carnforth).

An initial thought I had is that it is possible to combine the BDQ > SKI and Bentham Line services; this works in both directions with a possible unit round trip being:- BDQ d. xx15 > LAN d. xx16 > MCM d. xx32 > LAN d. xx48 > BDQ d. xx45 > SKI d. xx34 > BDQ d. xx15 > SKI d. xx04 > BDQ d. xx45 > SKI d. xx34, with a total time of nine hours. This would require three units to provide a three-hourly service on the Bentham line, whilst also giving Bradford its half-hourly service to Skipton, and improving transport links to the WCML.

 

[30907]

You are opting for minimal turnround times at BDQ, whereas at present the EMUs interiors, and reducing the Morecambe service (leaving gaps to fill at LAN)
You also need to cover a Skipton-Leeds each way in the peak which is currently a Lancaster (not to mention the other Leeds-Skipton sections).

I appreciate the desire to connect Bradford better, but I am not sure Lancaster is a significant enough flow to justify it.

A useful step would be to retime the Bradford-Leeds earlier so as to allow a straightforward connection at SHY for SKI. It would also balance the SHY-LDS service better. I think it has to go 5 earlier to avoid clashing with the Harrogate line.
Similarly xx38 from Leeds would give a better connection.

However, there's connections to/from Baildon to consider, which I haven't....

 

[northernchris]

Will the new timetable require the same amount of crew though? It could potentially save a couple of drivers and conductors which ultimately could reduce the headcount.

However, one option could be to revert to the pre-May 2018 cycle which would reduce the off peak diagrams from 15 (based on December 2022)to 14 by reducing turnarounds at Bradford. Removing the Cononley call on the Skipton - Bradford could help to shave off a couple of minutes to make it work, and would mean each route could retain a half hourly frequency and still make a nominal cost saving.

 

[LittleAH]

Rumour is Northern will be cutting a fair few services, especially frequencies and late night services to save money from May 23.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Rumour is Northern will be cutting a fair few services, especially frequencies and late night services to save money from May 23.

Will that be more so than the changes already visible on RTT?

 

[xotGD]

Are there still plans for 6-car trains?

That would boost capacity between Airedale and Leeds without the need for increased frequency.

As it stands, if there are to be service cuts, then cutting Bradford rather than Leeds is the less bad option.

 

[InkyScrolls]

They're still the plan but a few years away yet.

 

[Bantamzen]

As has been briefly on the May 2023 timetable changes thread, services from Bradford (Forster Square) to Skipton and Ilkley are reverting to hourly (from half-hourly) off-peak from May. Given how poor Bradford's transport links are in general (it has been referred to, with some justification, as Britain's worst-connected city), this seems something of a backward step, especially as the savings will be minor (Northern will still be paying for the same number of crews, units and paths, with only very small savings in maintenance costs). I've started this thread as a general place to discuss potential ways of changing/improving the service provided on 'the Triangle' - preferably without pie-in-the-sky ideas that will never come to fruition (e.g. through services from Ilkley to Preston via Carnforth).

An initial thought I had is that it is possible to combine the BDQ > SKI and Bentham Line services; this works in both directions with a possible unit round trip being:- BDQ d. xx15 > LAN d. xx16 > MCM d. xx32 > LAN d. xx48 > BDQ d. xx45 > SKI d. xx34 > BDQ d. xx15 > SKI d. xx04 > BDQ d. xx45 > SKI d. xx34, with a total time of nine hours. This would require three units to provide a three-hourly service on the Bentham line, whilst also giving Bradford its half-hourly service to Skipton, and improving transport links to the WCML.

It's an utterly ridiculous situation, and one that Northern seem to be doing simply because they got away with it last summer. What they are failing to remember is that the summer is these lines busiest time, especially when the sun is out. But they were busy because of the half hourly service making it fairly reasonable walk-up service for spur of the moment leisure trips. An hourly service however will put people off, as was seen last summer. This is what makes this decision so baffling, we are constantly told that leisure travel is up yet many services that cater for exactly this are being cut.

What this will lead to is even more traffic cramming onto the roads in the Aire and Wharfe valleys. Traffic is easily back to pre-pandemic levels in the area, this will just make things even worse just so Northern can save money by parking units in Forster Square for much of the day. Levelling up? My a***. The triangle services worked perfectly well as 2tph across the board, sure there were some lightly loaded services but that's true of pretty much everywhere at some point in the day.

 

[30907]

It's an utterly ridiculous situation, and one that Northern seem to be doing simply because they got away with it last summer. What they are failing to remember is that the summer is these lines busiest time, especially when the sun is out. But they were busy because of the half hourly service making it fairly reasonable walk-up service for spur of the moment leisure trips. An hourly service however will put people off, as was seen last summer.

What is your evidence? - I can only find complaints from before the cuts came in.

My impression (from a Keighley heritage/tourist industry perspective) was that any decline was general, rather than Bradford-specific, and conceivably related to the availability of foreign holidays and corresponding drop-off in staycations

I would have thought that the real problems were caused for (parts of) Baildon.

 

[InkyScrolls]

What is your evidence? - I can only find complaints from before the cuts came in.

My impression (from a Keighley heritage/tourist industry perspective) was that any decline was general, rather than Bradford-specific, and conceivably related to the availability of foreign holidays and corresponding drop-off in staycations

I would have thought that the real problems were caused for (parts of) Baildon.

Indeed - Baildon is the real loser in this scenario.

 

[Bantamzen]

What is your evidence? - I can only find complaints from before the cuts came in.

My impression (from a Keighley heritage/tourist industry perspective) was that any decline was general, rather than Bradford-specific, and conceivably related to the availability of foreign holidays and corresponding drop-off in staycations

There were lots of complaints from local businesses on social media and in local press, particularly in Ilkley which is / was a popular destination in the better weather for leisure. But besides this, we are talking about a services that serve large swathes of the city's metropolitan area. Its also worth noting that there are no direct buses between Bradford and Skipton / Ilkley, so the train is pretty vital in this respect.

From what I can tell, the decision last May to cut services back was made partly because of a backlog of 331 training & lower passenger numbers during covid restrictions. Not really something that can justify these potential cuts now, because simply put Northern haven't attempted a "normal" summer timetable since 2019. So how can they come to the conclusion that these cuts will be justified? As far as I can see, they are being made simply because they got away with it last year.

Well when I say got away with it, what they managed was to create even more chaos on the roads as many passengers took to the roads instead. Which given that people on these forums usually shriek with horror at the thought of railways tipping punters onto the roads through cuts these changes have for some reason gone largely under the radar. I don't want to descend into victim status, but Bradford does seem to get the crappy deals every single time.

I would have thought that the real problems were caused for (parts of) Baildon.

Baildon is an odd one I'm afraid. It has an official population of around 18K, however the station is located in the south east of the area and down a steep gradient from most of the place. And with a very poor bus service stopping near to it (basically 1ph), plus a car park that can hold only around a dozen vehicles at a push, its not great for connectivity so most people using the trains tend to travel to Shipley and connect there. But at least if they are doing this, then they are diving off the roads at the station and not causing more problems further down towards Bradford.

It really is the sort of place where a better integrated network could be trialled through the West Yorkshire PTE, that is to say have a more regular service from the top of the village (well technically its now classed as a town) down to the station and having multi-modal ticket acceptance because despite its poor location in relation to the rest of the town, it can still sometimes be reasonably busy, especially as articulated above when the weather is good. Ilkley and the moors are literally 20 mins away, and it was not uncommon to see very busy services through Baildon headed to our Spa Town neighbour (although personally I prefer the walk across the moors (Baht'at), have a cheeky pint or two in Ilkley, then use the train home).

 

[northernchris]

So how can they come to the conclusion that these cuts will be justified? As far as I can see, they are being made simply because they got away with it last year.

Well when I say got away with it, what they managed was to create even more chaos on the roads as many passengers took to the roads instead. Which given that people on these forums usually shriek with horror at the thought of railways tipping punters onto the roads through cuts these changes have for some reason gone largely under the radar. I don't want to descend into victim status, but Bradford does seem to get the crappy deals every single time.

I thought the cuts were being mandated by the Government? If Northern are having to cut 10% of services that's around 260 a day, so off peak Bradford services are the more logical services to cut. Retaining a full service on a Saturday could have been a compromise to assess passenger numbers over the summer before making a longer term decision.

 

[skyhigh]

If Northern are having to cut 10% of services that's around 260 a day, so off peak Bradford services are the more logical services to cut.

They are having to cut 10% of costs, not necessarily services.

 

[northernchris]

They are having to cut 10% of costs, not necessarily services.

Ah, thanks for confirming. Let's hope the level of service cuts aren't as severe as 10%!

 

[Bantamzen]

Ah, thanks for confirming. Let's hope the level of service cuts aren't as severe as 10%!

Well 2tph to 1tph in the Monday to Friday daytime off-peaks & all day Saturday on Bradford FS - Skipton / Ilkley is a pretty big cut! As said above, the cuts are in costs not necessarily in actual services. Northern could do a lot more in terms of revenue protection, or even promotion of their services to reduce loss & increase revenue without just slashing services and sitting back.

 

[30907]

Well 2tph to 1tph in the Monday to Friday daytime off-peaks & all day Saturday on Bradford FS - Skipton / Ilkley is a pretty big cut!

TBH I hadn't spotted the Saturday cut either on RTT or upthread. My earlier remarks didn't take that into account.

 

[northernchris]

Well 2tph to 1tph in the Monday to Friday daytime off-peaks & all day Saturday on Bradford FS - Skipton / Ilkley is a pretty big cut! As said above, the cuts are in costs not necessarily in actual services. Northern could do a lot more in terms of revenue protection, or even promotion of their services to reduce loss & increase revenue without just slashing services and sitting back.

From what I can see there's 5 return services between Skipton and Bradford withdrawn each day, and 6 Bradford - Ilkley return services axed. Obviously it's not ideal having to cut services, but with the government forcing operators to make savings, off peak services on quieter routes were always going to be at risk.

 

[ASharpe]

Based on the random times I get a train from BDQ dropping ome services to Skipton seems very reasonable as connections at shipley can be very good. Unless you are after a stop only some trains stop at. Newer better performance trains might mitigate that.

I hardly ever get a train from Bradford to Ilkley, buy given the poor road network in Bradford I think it should be encouraged.

 

[Bantamzen]

From what I can see there's 5 return services between Skipton and Bradford withdrawn each day, and 6 Bradford - Ilkley return services axed. Obviously it's not ideal having to cut services, but with the government forcing operators to make savings, off peak services on quieter routes were always going to be at risk.

That's still a 50% reduction in the daytime off-peaks. It might just appear as a small percentage on a spreadsheet at Northern HQ, but that's a massive loss to the people that rely on these trains. And then what about Saturdays, its a 50% decrease across the board.

Just because the government seek a 10% cut in costs, does not mean that 10% of services have to go. As I've articulated time and again in vain on these forums, the roads around Shipley in particular are recognised as some of the worst congested roads outside of the capital. Worse still is the fact that various bus operators dropped direct services to Bradford from Skipton & Ilkley because of the regular train services. So Northern ditching more is just a joke & beyond. I'm pretty certain that any company worth its salt would be able to take Northern's operations and eek out those savings either in better operations or simply by improving revenue. Certainly from what I've seen the return of the 2tph was seeing increasing numbers again, and certainly before covid numbers on these routes were on the up. But thanks to said pandemic, poor recent performance & industrial action Northern have a handy cover story to lop services off.

Based on the random times I get a train from BDQ dropping ome services to Skipton seems very reasonable as connections at shipley can be very good. Unless you are after a stop only some trains stop at. Newer better performance trains might mitigate that.

Erm are you sure? The Bradford FS - Leeds leave at Shipley at xx:08 & xx:38, with the Leeds - Skipton leaving at xx:08 & xx:38. So that leaves a connection time of about 1 minute if you are lucky across an active forecourt & car park. And the Ilkley trains depart at xx:53 giving a connection time of 15 mins. Given that the end to end journey from Bradford to Skipton is 38 minutes, a connection time of 15-30 mins doesn't seem all that great any more.

I hardly ever get a train from Bradford to Ilkley, buy given the poor road network in Bradford I think it should be encouraged.

That same road network also serves destinations up the Aire Valley, meaning that alternative bus services such as the 622 (as far as Bingley) & 662 (up to Keighley) are often delayed or cancelled. So people rely on regular rail services, which following these cuts they will have less of.

 

[30907]

That's still a 50% reduction in the daytime off-peaks. It might just appear as a small percentage on a spreadsheet at Northern HQ, but that's a massive loss to the people that rely on these trains. And then what about Saturdays, its a 50% decrease across the board

Which, weekday off-peak, are IME (random times - buses are more convenient for me) very quiet. Saturday daytime I agree with.

As I've articulated time and again in vain on these forums, the roads around Shipley in particular are recognised as some of the worst congested roads outside of the capital.

Yes, they are - but the congestion is mostly at peak times (I need to drive around the area 2-3 times a week) - as is the rail use.

Worse still is the fact that various bus operators dropped direct services to Bradford from Skipton & Ilkley because of the regular train services.

Bradford-Skipton was split to improve reliability, Bradford-Ilkley/Harrogate because of loading AFAIK.

Erm are you sure? The Bradford FS - Leeds leave at Shipley at xx:08 & xx:38, with the Leeds - Skipton leaving at xx:08 & xx:38. So that leaves a connection time of about 1 minute if you are lucky across an active forecourt & car park. .

I made it once! I agree, hence my suggestion upthread to tweak the Leeds-Bradford service.

That same road network also serves destinations up the Aire Valley, meaning that alternative bus services such as the 622 (as far as Bingley) & 662 (up to Keighley) are often delayed or cancelled.

Both are operating at 2/3 their pre-Covid level, and the 622 is my preferred route because

 

[Bantamzen]

Which, weekday off-peak, are IME (random times - buses are more convenient for me) very quiet. Saturday daytime I agree with.

Not always, some can indeed be quiet, others busier.

Yes, they are - but the congestion is mostly at peak times (I need to drive around the area 2-3 times a week) - as is the rail use.

Not necessarily, there are often occasions during the day when traffic builds up quickly (I live not far off Otley Road so can see it from my house!).

Bradford-Skipton was split to improve reliability, Bradford-Ilkley/Harrogate because of loading AFAIK.

Loadings that had reduced because of an improved rail service.

I made it once! I agree, hence my suggestion upthread to tweak the Leeds-Bradford service.

I'm not sure tweaking the Leeds service to justify cutting direct Skipton would really be greeted well by people using the services. And besides, dumping more passengers onto Leeds-Skipton services, wise or not? Either way this doesn't help the Ilkley route with the only alternative to travel via Leeds, and pay extra for it.

Both are operating at 2/3 their pre-Covid level, and the 622 is my preferred route because

Mainly due to ongoing driver shortages, at least that is what their social media teams continually tell passengers. However as the A3 route has shown, the £2 fare cap has proven very popular. That service has gone from being practically empty last year, to often full to standing. It goes to show what can be achieved if actual effort is made to attract passengers back, which is exactly what Northern are failing badly on with these cuts.

The Shipley triangle services have proved to be very popular over the years, and the fact that they are seeing deep cuts is annoying at a time when the railways should be making an effort to put more bums on seats. For example on the Bolton - Manchester route, Northern seem to be trying for more passengers with their £3 Thursdays:

£3 Thursdays

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Every Thursday £1.50* advance single fares will be available from Bolton to Manchester meaning you can go do your thing for less. Whether it’s a midweek adventure or the midweek commute - Take the train and save now.

All for £3 return every Thursday. Simply search advance single tickets from Bolton and Manchester and ensure to book 3+ days in advance to secure your £3 train tickets.

You can save 1 hour 11 minutes per day getting to work on this route vs the car, which is another great reason to take this journey!

You'll find these offers through our website or through the Northern app. Follow the links below to buy online or head to our app stores. Remember we also don't charge booking fees!

So why not something like this on our side of the Pennines? It would be a prefect idea for the summer timetable to get more people using the trains to head for Skipton or Ilkley.

 

[northernchris]

That's still a 50% reduction in the daytime off-peaks. It might just appear as a small percentage on a spreadsheet at Northern HQ, but that's a massive loss to the people that rely on these trains. And then what about Saturdays, its a 50% decrease across the board.

Just because the government seek a 10% cut in costs, does not mean that 10% of services have to go. As I've articulated time and again in vain on these forums, the roads around Shipley in particular are recognised as some of the worst congested roads outside of the capital. Worse still is the fact that various bus operators dropped direct services to Bradford from Skipton & Ilkley because of the regular train services. So Northern ditching more is just a joke & beyond. I'm pretty certain that any company worth its salt would be able to take Northern's operations and eek out those savings either in better operations or simply by improving revenue. Certainly from what I've seen the return of the 2tph was seeing increasing numbers again, and certainly before covid numbers on these routes were on the up. But thanks to said pandemic, poor recent performance & industrial action Northern have a handy cover story to lop services off.

I agree Saturdays should justify a half hourly service, although Northern's Saturday service is broadly the same as weekdays now so it may not be practical to have a separate timetable just for a couple of routes.

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree Saturdays should justify a half hourly service, although Northern's Saturday service is broadly the same as weekdays now so it may not be practical to have a separate timetable just for a couple of routes.

The Monday-Friday half hourly service should be retained too. Last year's cuts were to allow them to catch-up with driver training, this allowed the winter timetable to be restored to 2tph across all routes. How can they then justify re-implementing these cuts having spent time and money training enough crews to run this level of service? The simple answer is they can't, they can't even use passenger numbers in the last few years because a "normal" service hasn't run since 2019. So one can only conclude that the only reason these cuts are being made is that they hope they will go under the radar, which sadly they often do.

 

[skyhigh]

How can they then justify re-implementing these cuts having spent time and money training enough crews to run this level of service?

It's actually a little more nuanced than that. The basic fact is that there have been a lot of retirements and transfers (mainly to freight operators) from Leeds and Skipton depots.

Almost all the crew sign the Triangle as a core route, but it's mainly experienced crew that are leaving. This means that newer crew are moving up through the links where they need to sign more routes - which means they need to be taken off work that they currently sign to learn new routes otherwise there will be a major backlog again.

I don't doubt that cuts are at least part of the issue, but crew training is still going to be an issue going forward.

 

[RailWonderer]

Well 2tph to 1tph in the Monday to Friday daytime off-peaks & all day Saturday on Bradford FS - Skipton / Ilkley is a pretty big cut! As said above, the cuts are in costs not necessarily in actual services. Northern could do a lot more in terms of revenue protection, or even promotion of their services to reduce loss & increase revenue without just slashing services and sitting back.

Northern could request funding for ticket barriers at more stations for example, although most of their larger stations are operated by other TOCs giving Northern fewer stations where installing them would be a good investment. Still there must be some larger Northern operated stations. Barnsley?