Shotton to London Euston Off Peak Return - Excess Fare

[parkender102]

Made my usual journey this morning on a £70 Off Peak Return from Shotton to London Euston:

08:38 Shotton to Chester
08:55 Chester to Crewe
09:29 Crewe to London Euston (originating from Manchester 08:55 1A16)

A journey I have made regularly for the last 6 months – once or twice a train manager has said my Off Peak ticket is not valid as the Virgin 09:29 Manchester – Crewe – London Euston is a Peak Service – however when I explain my Journey started in Wales they agree my ticket is OK.

However this morning the train manager insisted my ticket was invalid and charged me £107.00 extra for the Crewe to London Euston portion. Rather than cause a fuss as he was sticking to his guns I decided to pay the extra on my credit card and sort it out later ('My background is Revenue Protection' he said so I assumed he was right) - but I remembered I'd printed off the restrictions for this route from this website and it clearly states:

A Shotton - London Terminals Off-Peak return has Restriction VK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restriction VK
These restrictions apply Monday to Friday. By any train on other days.

Outward Travel
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to arrive London Euston at or after 1000.

Return Travel
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to depart London Euston at or after 0905 but not valid on the 1610.

Break of Journey is not valid on Outward Travel.
Off-peak restrictions will not apply on Virgin Trains services between midday 23rd Dec 2010 to 3rd January 2011 inclusive.

So if the train arrives at London Euston after 10:00 in the morning I should be OK.

I have 3 options I think:

1) Take it up with VirginTrains Customer Relations in Birmingham (0845 000 8000).

2) Fill in a comments form and attach tickets and hope for the best.

3) I can call in at Euston tonight and see what the ticket office there say.

Can anyone on here confirm the VK restriction as above. I mentioned it to the train manager but he was away from his office and had shut the computer down but he tried to ring the ticketing people to no avail which made me think he was unsure of the restrictions.

 

[Deerfold]

I have 3 options I think:

1) Take it up with VirginTrains Customer Relations in Birmingham (0845 000 8000).

2) Fill in a comments form and attach tickets and hope for the best.

3) I can call in at Euston tonight and see what the ticket office there say.

Can anyone on here confirm the VK restriction as above. I mentioned it to the train manager but he was away from his office and had shut the computer down but he tried to ring the ticketing people to no avail which made me think he was unsure of the restrictions.

Restriction VK is on page 87 of http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf on nationalrail and seems to match what you said.

I'd complain (probably by phone in the first instance). I'd also have asked for an UnPaid Fare Notice as it's usually harder to get them to give you money back once you've paid it than to get them to stop chasing something they haven't a hope of getting off you.

If they won't recompense you complain to Passenger Focus.

If all else fails you may have to threaten to take them to the small claims court.

If you send your tickets anywhere make sure you've photocopied them first.

 

[tony_mac]

You could (until yesterday) look it up directly on the National Rail site - but they now seem to have removed (or broken) the links to the restrictions.

This agrees with what you have said.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_VK.pdf

But there doesn't seem to be a way of confirming the actual restriction code at the moment.

BTW, their own website says that ticket is valid on that train.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The ticket office will tell you to get in touch with Customer Services. They might decide they can phone through for you, but chances are they will be too busy and even if they do get through, Customer Services will probably say "tell them to get in contact with us".

You should, in the first instance, contact them by phone, get a reference number if you can, and send the tickets to them afterwards by Special Delivery (making sure it is insured upto the value of the tickets).

 

[First class]

Restriction VK below.

I would arrange a charge back on your Credit Card for starters, then contact VT Customer Services, failing that, Passenger Focus/ATOC.

Do not send in any originals at this stage. Make a few copies.

 

[LexyBoy]

That's pretty poor - I'd second the advice that you should send a copy of the tickets to Customer Services with a brief account of the event and demanding a refund of the excess fare. You should give full details of the train you travelled on as well both as confirmation of what happened and in the hope that your guard might be reminded of how ticket restrictions are applied. Personally I'd feel justified in asking for additional compensation (or ‘Administration fee’ to use railway parlance) for the error.

As others have said, in future don't pay up in circumstances like this – asking for a UPFN gives you time to confirm that you did indeed hold a valid ticket (or pay the additional fare without penalty if you discover it was in fact needed), and makes it easier to argue the point, as well as not putting you out of pocket.

You could (until yesterday) look it up directly on the National Rail site - but they now seem to have removed (or broken) the links to the restrictions.

Seems to be working fine for me...

 

[cuccir]

1) Take it up with VirginTrains Customer Relations in Birmingham (0845 000 8000).

Try 0121 654 7501 for Virigin, it's the 'geographical' number for their call centre and the cost will be the same as ringing any Birmingham landline, rather than the 08xx charges. 0845 is same as local rate on most landlines, but usually more expensive on a mobile.

 

[parkender102]

Thanks for all your help - spoke to Customer Service in Birmingham and they ran the journey through the booking system and confirmed it is an Off Peak ticket and is valid on all the services I travelled on. The guy there asked me to return the tickets with covering letter and explanation of the conversations I've had with Train Manager and Customer Service today. I won't send the originals but colour photocopies and ask that Credit Card be refunded and any additional compensation!

In future I'll also ask for an UnPaid Fare Notice. Thanks for all your help

 

[sonic2009]

I would complain as well, making sure you keep a photocopy of what you send to them ")

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for all your help - spoke to Customer Service in Birmingham and they ran the journey through the booking system and confirmed it is an Off Peak ticket and is valid on all the services I travelled on. The guy there asked me to return the tickets with covering letter and explanation of the conversations I've had with Train Manager and Customer Service today. I won't send the originals but colour photocopies and ask that Credit Card be refunded and any additional compensation!

In future I'll also ask for an UnPaid Fare Notice. Thanks for all your help

Do let us know when (if) they finish sorting it out.

And whether they apologise...

 

[nedchester]

Restriction VK is on page 87 of http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf on nationalrail and seems to match what you said.

I'd complain (probably by phone in the first instance). I'd also have asked for an UnPaid Fare Notice as it's usually harder to get them to give you money back once you've paid it than to get them to stop chasing something they haven't a hope of getting off you.

Agree that I'd have stuck with the UPFN as in this case you are 100% in your rights although admit that it is sometimes difficulty to be absolutely sure. Tickets to/from Wales have more relaxed restrictions to those from England. A lot of travellers from Chester often......cough.....have a ticket from Shotton!

 

[First class]

Suspect that the VK restriction has a good chance of being changed to 2C/9I or 5F/3A if people are taking advantage, and especially to "simplify" things for the customer!

 

[merlodlliw]

Just wondering are VT train managers on any kind of commission as to tickets they sell for excess.

I agree never pay up on the spot if there is doubt, ask for the confirmation of the train Managers decision document, Over £100 excess is no small amount.

Never send originals, only copies at first, then keep another copy.

many who work in Chester live just over the border,the rules do not question where you live.Only the station you book from.

Gareth Marston led a campaign in his area (mid Wales) when the same situation applied, IE train Managers not understanding the rules.

I have advised many friends (living in North East Wales) never buy a ticket from Chester Station to London early in the morning, unless the Company is paying.Many are aghast when I tell them the prices.

Bob

 

[1V53]

Digressing a little....

What is the situation on those buying a cheaper ticket but impossible to make that journey? Eg Wlp-Eus svr (no time restriction, code 8A) boarding 0631 ex Shr, before the first Wlp train has arrived at Shr (first one is 0641 ex Wlp)? Invalid?

I've had people claim they have had a lift but insist on excessing them as their journey was impossible had they boarded at Wlp.

I've always said it's not valid

 

[LexyBoy]

Digressing a little....

What is the situation on those buying a cheaper ticket but impossible to make that journey? Eg Wlp-Eus svr (no time restriction, code 8A) boarding 0631 ex Shr, before the first Wlp train has arrived at Shr (first one is 0641 ex Wlp)? Invalid?

I've had people claim they have had a lift but insist on excessing them as their journey was impossible had they boarded at Wlp.

I've always said it's not valid

If break of journey is permitted on the leg concerned then it's totally ok.

If not, excess to the cheapest fare allowing BoJ, or new ticket if cheaper.

 

[1V53]

If break of journey is permitted on the leg concerned then it's totally ok.

If not, excess to the cheapest fare allowing BoJ, or new ticket if cheaper.

My point is the first train in the morning from Wlp doesn't arrive until well after the 0631 leaves

 

[parkender102]

I would complain as well, making sure you keep a photocopy of what you send to them ")

Have emailed covering letter to Virgin Customer Service asking for refund to credit card and also compensation along the lines of 'It was an embarrassing situation to have to explain oneself in front of other travellers.' Have attached colour scanned photocopies of tickets as a .pdf file. I have also sent hard copy and printed colour scan of tickets to Virgin Customer Service via the Freepost address. Have kept original tickets. Will let you know how I get on.

The Chester / Shotton thing is complex as the first Off Peak train of the day from Chester to London Euston is the 09:35. Yet for the same price you can travel from Shotton via Chester and Crewe perfectly legally on the 07:27 or 08:38 departures from Shotton and arrive at 10:04 and 11:04 respectively rather than 11:38 on the direct train from Chester at 09:35. Shotton is a 6 minute train journey from Chester.

 

[LexyBoy]

My point is the first train in the morning from Wlp doesn't arrive until well after the 0631 leaves

The fact that the full journey isn’t possible just means that they must have started at Shrewsbury. As I posted, the validity of this depends on the ticket restrictions.

Having checked the restriction code (I was posting from my phone before so couldn’t), BoJ is not allowed on the outward leg, so in this case it’s not valid from Shrewsbury. It would be equally invalid on a later train where the journey would have been possible - though in this case it would probably not be possible to tell whether the passenger had boarded at Welshpool or Shrewsbury (unless they tell you they got a lift ).

 

[nedchester]

Have emailed covering letter to Virgin Customer Service asking for refund to credit card and also compensation along the lines of 'It was an embarrassing situation to have to explain oneself in front of other travellers.' Have attached colour scanned photocopies of tickets as a .pdf file. I have also sent hard copy and printed colour scan of tickets to Virgin Customer Service via the Freepost address. Have kept original tickets. Will let you know how I get on.

The Chester / Shotton thing is complex as the first Off Peak train of the day from Chester to London Euston is the 09:35. Yet for the same price you can travel from Shotton via Chester and Crewe perfectly legally on the 07:27 or 08:38 departures from Shotton and arrive at 10:04 and 11:04 respectively rather than 11:38 on the direct train from Chester at 09:35. Shotton is a 6 minute train journey from Chester.

The thing is that if you get on at Chester (0755 departure) on your Shotton to London Off Peak Return, how is anyone to know if you came from Shotton or Chester (yes I know there are barriers at Chester by the way)

Also of course it's a handy ticket to have as you can come out of London in the peak and travel to Chester (as long as it's not on the 1610 which is barred).

 

[merlodlliw]

Chester is a Welsh station(ATW) its not their concern if you have turned up by car with a valid London ticket from Shotton ,your ticket should will take you through the barriers
it is also of no concern to VT how you got to Crewe either if you are on board an ex Manchester VT from Crewe.

No trains run from Shotton to Crewe, so you have to change at Chester.


Bob

 

[First class]

Chester is a Welsh station(ATW) its not their concern if you have turned up by car with a valid London ticket from Shotton ,your ticket should will take you through the barriers
it is also of no concern to VT how you got to Crewe either if you are on board an ex Manchester VT from Crewe.

No trains run from Shotton to Crewe, so you have to change at Chester.


Bob

I think you will find it is ATW concern whether your ticket is valid to London or not. ATW will get a percentage of revenue from a Shotton-London ticket, (probably about £15 of the £70), which is a sizeable amount. As VK does not permit break of journey on the Outward portion, a new ticket/excess must be purchased which gives additional revenue distribution to ATW.

 

[island]

Digressing a little....

What is the situation on those buying a cheaper ticket but impossible to make that journey? Eg Wlp-Eus svr (no time restriction, code 8A) boarding 0631 ex Shr, before the first Wlp train has arrived at Shr (first one is 0641 ex Wlp)? Invalid?

I've had people claim they have had a lift but insist on excessing them as their journey was impossible had they boarded at Wlp.

I've always said it's not valid

It's invalid because 8A says no time restriction, but no BOJ on the outbound. Not because the journey is impossible.

 

[bengolding]

I know of someone who had a similar problem on the 08:29 from Crewe recently albeit originating at a station further along the coast from you, with a code VK (Euston arrival after 10am). Wonder if if was the same Manchester-based TM doing this.

Parkender, I've sent you a PM.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you will find it is ATW concern whether your ticket is valid to London or not. ATW will get a percentage of revenue from a Shotton-London ticket, (probably about £15 of the £70), which is a sizeable amount. As VK does not permit break of journey on the Outward portion, a new ticket/excess must be purchased which gives additional revenue distribution to ATW.

There is a break in journey at Chester whether you arrive at Chester by car or train from Shotton ,the train for Crewe has to be caught at Chester, so no excess is required, no ATW staff are going to stop you boarding the marked time train leaving Chester.


Bob

 

[nedchester]

There is a break in journey at Chester whether you arrive at Chester by car or train from Shotton ,the train for Crewe has to be caught at Chester, so no excess is required, no ATW staff are going to stop you boarding the marked time train leaving Chester.


Bob

Indeed and I am sure a number of people do this........

 

[yorkie]

There is a break in journey at Chester whether you arrive at Chester by car or train from Shotton ,the train for Crewe has to be caught at Chester, so no excess is required, no ATW staff are going to stop you boarding the marked time train leaving Chester.

No there isn't. If the journey is made by train no break of journey is required. Do you know what break of journey is? It's defined in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage....

Whether it is right or wrong, arriving by car would clearly be starting short of the origin point, this appears to be counted as the same as a 'break' of journey, and this is not allowed on tickets that prohibit break of journey.

In reality it's almost impossible to enforce, although where barriers are present, some brains may be required to get through the barriers, although I don't really want to say any more than this as I don't want to be seen as encouraging a breach of the terms (though the terms are, in my opinion, utterly ludicrous, but that's beside the point).

 

[merlodlliw]

Ill leave it at that, but the rules are not understood by a lot of VT staff either,especially the TM roaming the Wilmslow route to Euston.I agree in many instances the regulations that apply to tickets are in need of attention.

Bob

 

[bnm]

Digressing a little....

What is the situation on those buying a cheaper ticket but impossible to make that journey? Eg Wlp-Eus svr (no time restriction, code 8A) boarding 0631 ex Shr, before the first Wlp train has arrived at Shr (first one is 0641 ex Wlp)? Invalid?

I've had people claim they have had a lift but insist on excessing them as their journey was impossible had they boarded at Wlp.

I've always said it's not valid

Eh? WLP-EUS SVR is restriction code VJ. I'm not aware of any flow into London that has restriction code 8A.

 

[1V53]

Eh? WLP-EUS SVR is restriction code VJ. I'm not aware of any flow into London that has restriction code 8A.

Was doing from memory and ok so I got the code wrong but it doesn't actually alter the validity of the question.

 

[parkender102]

Result

Received apology from Virgin that the ticket was valid and received refund of £107.00. No other recompense though. So I now carry the apology letter with me. This morning I had Train Manager (a different one) telling me my ticket not valid as the 09:29 to London Euston from Crewe is Peak Only - produced my letter and she apologised when she heard journey had started in Wales!