Should all XC services call at Cambridge North?

[Mitchell Hurd]

The December 2025 timetable will include calls at Cambridge South Station which will open early in 2026 and it appears all passenger train services including all CrossCountry, Greater Anglia, Great Northern and Thameslink services with Cambridge South Station on route will call at Cambridge South Station.

mods note - split from this thread

Can CrossCountry really afford to do that considering how busy the 170's are?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can CrossCountry really afford to do that considering how busy the 170's are?

Between Stansted and Cambridge?
They’ve lost Audley End off that stretch anyway.

 

[Magdalia]

Can CrossCountry really afford to do that considering how busy the 170's are?

Between Stansted and Cambridge?
They’ve lost Audley End off that stretch anyway.

At Cambridge, Stansted Airport is the 4th biggest passenger flow after Kings Cross, Ely and St Pancras.

Cross Country are failing Cambridge in 3 ways:

• their trains are not long enough
• they don't stop at Cambridge North
• they have paths Cambridge-Stansted Airport that they don't use

By December 2025 they need to be running all trains through to Stansted Airport, stopping at Cambridge North, and ready to stop at Cambridge South when it opens.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

At Cambridge, Stansted Airport is the 4th biggest passenger flow after Kings Cross, Ely and St Pancras.

Cross Country are failing Cambridge in 3 ways:

• their trains are not long enough
• they don't stop at Cambridge North
• they have paths Cambridge-Stansted Airport that they don't use

By December 2025 they need to be running all trains through to Stansted Airport, stopping at Cambridge North, and ready to stop at Cambridge South when it opens.

Yes, but it seems daft to assume Cambridge North alone is going to push them to breaking point.

 

[duffield]

At Cambridge, Stansted Airport is the 4th biggest passenger flow after Kings Cross, Ely and St Pancras.

Cross Country are failing Cambridge in 3 ways:

• their trains are not long enough
• they don't stop at Cambridge North
• they have paths Cambridge-Stansted Airport that they don't use

By December 2025 they need to be running all trains through to Stansted Airport, stopping at Cambridge North, and ready to stop at Cambridge South when it opens.

How about they actually show they can run the existing timetable, without regularly cancelling (e.g.) half the Birmingham to Cardiff services (some just truncated, some cancelled all the way to Nottingham), before they start trying to extend extra services to Stansted?

Despite their four-month emergency timetable for driver training, they still regularly cancel due to "a shortage of train drivers". Extra services would just make this already unacceptable situation worse.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes, but it seems daft to assume Cambridge North alone is going to push them to breaking point.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm looking at the data.

How about they actually show they can run the existing timetable, without regularly cancelling (e.g.) half the Birmingham to Cardiff services (some just truncated, some cancelled all the way to Nottingham), before they start trying to extend extra services to Stansted?

What is daft is Cambridge not getting the service it needs because of something that's (not) happening the other side of the country.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm not assuming anything, I'm looking at the data.

I was referring to Mitchell Hurd's comment, not yours, which suggested it'd be in XC's best interests to skip Cambridge South.

 

[TheBigD]

The only regular overcrowding of the current XC services in Anglia is on the northbound between Cambridge and Ely. This is due to the existing timetable having a 25 minute gap before the XC service to Ely. After Ely, even peak services like the 1700 ex Cambridge have empty seats.
In the southbound direction, the XC is 5 minutes behind the 8 car EMU from Ely, which has mopped up all the punters.

From Dec 25 the 25 minute gap before the northbound XC is reduced to 15 minutes.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Can CrossCountry really afford to do that considering how busy the 170's are?

Perhaps they will not have a choice as perhaps the only way to make the timetable work is for every train arriving at Cambridge from the South and leaving Cambridge to the South to stop at Cambridge South.

 

[cle]

Even if South is anticipated to be more strategic (North could do with some better placemaking to fulfill the Science Park role better) - it feels simpler to have everything call at both, and give a high frequency C-Bahn

 

[brad465]

There's not just the impact on crowd levels to consider, we're talking about DMUs making an additional stop, which I would have thought has greater time and fuel consumption penalties than the EMUs and bi-mode 755s (using electric at this point) that call. Perhaps if XC ever acquired something like 755s to replace 170s, and/or the whole route to Birmingham New Street was electrified, there would be merit in calling there.

 

[Topological]

This all suggests that the path from Stansted may be better served by an EMU that then serves all Cambridge stations (with the presumption then that the XC would terminate at Cambridge every hour, without serving North). Whether the EMU terminates at Cambridge North or goes onward to Ely can also be debated.

If the problem is platform space at Stansted then the stock could actually be one of the Stansted Express units.

I can see why XC would not be suited to providing connections for Cambridge as well as the longer distance flows.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

There's not just the impact on crowd levels to consider, we're talking about DMUs making an additional stop, which I would have thought has greater time and fuel consumption penalties than the EMUs and bi-mode 755s (using electric at this point) that call. Perhaps if XC ever acquired something like 755s to replace 170s, and/or the whole route to Birmingham New Street was electrified, there would be merit in calling there.

I'm actually amazed there aren't more TOCs going for the 755s rather than hunting around and Hanging on for battery tech.

 

[Magdalia]

This all suggests that the path from Stansted may be better served by an EMU that then serves all Cambridge stations (with the presumption then that the XC would terminate at Cambridge every hour, without serving North). Whether the EMU terminates at Cambridge North or goes onward to Ely can also be debated.

If the problem is platform space at Stansted then the stock could actually be one of the Stansted Express units.

I can see why XC would not be suited to providing connections for Cambridge as well as the longer distance flows.

The existing Cross Country paths actually pass each other (at speed) at or near to Cambridge North.

Stansted Express units are fully committed on the Stansted Express, which requires 9 units for the 4tph service. Each class 745 is 230m long, it is they that take up the space in platforms 1 and 3 at Stansted.

But we have now reached the point that the Peterborough-Cambridge (all 3 stations)-Stansted flows are much more important than the longer distance flows to/from Leicester and Birmingham.

 

[Topological]

The existing Cross Country paths actually pass each other (at speed) at or near to Cambridge North.

Stansted Express units are fully committed on the Stansted Express, which requires 9 units for the 4tph service. Each class 745 is 230m long, it is they that take up the space in platforms 1 and 3 at Stansted.

But we have now reached the point that the Peterborough-Cambridge (all 3 stations)-Stansted flows are much more important than the longer distance flows to/from Leicester and Birmingham.

My understanding was that the Stansted Express was getting interworked with the Norwich trains such that there was no certainty a "Stansted Express" unit would actually be on the service. Other threads also suggest the 720s are not worked to capacity.

The problem with Peterborough is that it takes the train off the wires, meaning that the length is necessarily limited to what DMU services can provide. That means either not serving Peterborough, or not severing the other connections provided by the DMU service (Leicester and Birmingham).

The best solution seems to be an EMU in the CrossCountry path, especially if one can be platformed at Stansted. (To clarify this first best does not interwork with the Stansted Express).

 

[Magdalia]

My understanding was that the Stansted Express was getting interworked with the Norwich trains such that there was no certainty a "Stansted Express" unit would actually be on the service.

The Stansted Express units are booked to interwork with the Norwich trains to get them to and from Crown Point for maintenance. Whilst that happens the Norwich class 745s fill the gaps in the Stansted Express. There can be ad-hoc crossovers too depending on relative availability in the two sub-fleets.

Other threads also suggest the 720s are not worked to capacity.

There is surplus class 720 capacity, but it is difficult to make use of that. They are 5 car 23m trains so they are too long for platform 2 at Stansted, though I think there may just be room to put a class 720 in platform 1 with a class 745 on top.

As is repeatedly discussed elsewhere, the class 720s are very unsuitable for Stansted Express (or other Stansted Airport trains) because of the very narrow aisles and lack of luggage space.

The problem with Peterborough is that it takes the train off the wires, meaning that the length is necessarily limited to what DMU services can provide. That means either not serving Peterborough, or not severing the other connections provided by the DMU service (Leicester and Birmingham).

Peterborough is important as a destination from Cambridge in its own right, and as a change point for the ECML, so there needs to be through trains. Flows from Cambridge to Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and Leeds are as big as from Cambridge to Leicester or Birmingham, even with the need to change trains at Peterborough. I don't see having to change to get from Stansted or Cambridge to Leicester or Birmingham as an obstacle to severing the through service. As I've said before (many times) the Cambridge-Birmingham and Norwich-Liverpool split is an administrative convenience not driven by passenger flows.

The best solution seems to be an EMU in the CrossCountry path, especially if one can be platformed at Stansted.

My preference is class 755s Stansted-Peterborough, and run by Greater Anglia.

 

[Topological]

To serve the Cambridge to Peterborough and onwards flows there would still be the CrossCountry service. The only reason that train is giving up the Stansted section is because of limited paths in and out of Stansted. As argued, there is a big demand from Cambridge and a need to consider Cambridge North and Cambridge South, something a 2/3-car DMU is not well suited for. To give the EMU a slot something has to give and the CrossCountry is the obvious path to swap.

There are many who advocate the Norwich train extending to Stansted, that is 755 operated. Taking out the CrossCountry would allow that Norwich train to run instead. However, that would still be lower capacity use than an EMU.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

To serve the Cambridge to Peterborough and onwards flows there would still be the CrossCountry service. The only reason that train is giving up the Stansted section is because of limited paths in and out of Stansted. As argued, there is a big demand from Cambridge and a need to consider Cambridge North and Cambridge South, something a 2/3-car DMU is not well suited for. To give the EMU a slot something has to give and the CrossCountry is the obvious path to swap.

There are many who advocate the Norwich train extending to Stansted, that is 755 operated. Taking out the CrossCountry would allow that Norwich train to run instead. However, that would still be lower capacity use than an EMU.

Plus you can't get 2tph through Ely junction to Norwich, until that happens it's probably not practical anyway

 

[Magdalia]

The only reason that train is giving up the Stansted section is because of limited paths in and out of Stansted.

The paths are still there for an hourly Stansted-Birmingham, but Cross Country have chosen not to use them since before the pandemic.

There are many who advocate the Norwich train extending to Stansted, that is 755 operated.

This already happens for most of the day. But the Norwich trains don't have paths south of Cambridge in the peaks because of conflicts with peak only fast Liverpool Street-Cambridge trains.

 

[dk1]

In an article in MR magazine earlier this year XC stated that hourly services between Cambridge and Stansted would resume in May 2025.

 

[Topological]

The paths are still there for an hourly Stansted-Birmingham, but Cross Country have chosen not to use them since before the pandemic.


This already happens for most of the day. But the Norwich trains don't have paths south of Cambridge in the peaks because of conflicts with peak only fast Liverpool Street-Cambridge trains.

Indeed, but the point remains that the path into Stansted is for a CrossCountry DMU which lacks the capacity to also provide a connection to Stansted for Cambridge North and Cambridge South.

Irrespective of whether they are used, by CrossCountry giving up the path there would be space for an EMU that did have the space to provide capacity Cambridge needs.

The CrossCountry DMU would still give the options from Cambridge to the West that it does at the moment, just that passengers from Peterborough and beyond would need to change to reach Stansted.

 

[Magdalia]

Irrespective of whether they are used, by CrossCountry giving up the path there would be space for an EMU that did have the space to provide capacity Cambridge needs.

I am part way towards a possible solution here, that would leave Cross Country not running south of Cambridge, and the issue of whether they stop at Cambridge North becomes less pressing.

by CrossCountry giving up the path there would be space for an EMU that did have the space to provide capacity Cambridge needs.

That EMU could be a class 379, which is already passed for Stansted, and is designed for airport traffic. Great Northern could be given it to run.

Northbound it is easy to path in the existing timings to Cambridge then picking up the xx:05 path currently occupied by the Kings Cross-Ely terminators that are retimed from December 2025.

Finding somewhere to terminate the train, and get it back to Cambridge, without getting in the way of other services, is the tricky part.

The answer to that could be something that has been proposed a few times locally, but won't happen very quickly. That would be to build the new Waterbeach station with a turnback platform in the style of Beaulieu Park. It would then be possible to run a Stansted-Waterbeach shuttle, with 3 single class 379s calling at all three Cambridge stations. It might be possible to get that down to 2 units with a bit of retiming.

The CrossCountry DMU would still give the options from Cambridge to the West that it does at the moment, just that passengers from Peterborough and beyond would need to change to reach Stansted.

Passengers from Peterborough and March would also need to change to get to Cambridge South, which is a disadvantage.

 

[cle]

Wouldn’t XC having longer trains solve this, with a call at North?

Passengers from Peterborough and March would also need to change to get to Cambridge South, which is a disadvantage.

This flow doesn’t exist yet so I would argue it’s not a real disbenefit. As yet. It's theoretical. And even so, for the same justification as Leicester/Brum, people can still change at Cambridge easily, to many services. ‘Something has to give’

 

[bramling]

mods note - split from this thread

Can CrossCountry really afford to do that considering how busy the 170's are?

On balance I’d say they should call. However there would need to be some attempt to discourage use of the XC services by people making local journeys (including to/from Ely), and I’m not sure how that could really be achieved.

 

[Magdalia]

This flow doesn’t exist yet so I would argue it’s not a real disbenefit. As yet. It's theoretical.

The flows Peterborough/March-Cambridge South are latent, and can be forecasted. The railway has to anticipate change, which is only a year away, not wait and only respond after it has happened.

Cambridge South is widely expected to reach 2 million entries and exits per year, and quickly. The pattern of travel at Cambridge is a good guide to where those journeys will be from and to. Peterborough ranks 9th on Cambridge's list of destinations, and it is just ahead of Norwich and Kings Lynn. Looked at from the other end, Cambridge is 3rd most important destination for Peterborough and 2nd for March. Bear in mind also the flows between Cambridge and ECML destinations where passengers are changing at Peterborough already.

There will be lots of people wanting to travel Peterborough/March-Cambridge South and the railway needs to be ready for it when the station opens. That means the December 2025 timetable. I'm confident that, with direct trains, Peterborough-Cambridge South will be a bigger flow than Cambridge-Birmingham very quickly. It is bad business for the railway to dismiss that as theoretical.

‘Something has to give’

You are right. But when Cambridge South opens, the traffic flows will change and what gives needs to change too.

 

[William3000]

The Stansted Express units are booked to interwork with the Norwich trains to get them to and from Crown Point for maintenance. Whilst that happens the Norwich class 745s fill the gaps in the Stansted Express. There can be ad-hoc crossovers too depending on relative availability in the two sub-fleets.



There is surplus class 720 capacity, but it is difficult to make use of that. They are 5 car 23m trains so they are too long for platform 2 at Stansted, though I think there may just be room to put a class 720 in platform 1 with a class 745 on top.

As is repeatedly discussed elsewhere, the class 720s are very unsuitable for Stansted Express (or other Stansted Airport trains) because of the very narrow aisles and lack of luggage space.


Peterborough is important as a destination from Cambridge in its own right, and as a change point for the ECML, so there needs to be through trains. Flows from Cambridge to Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and Leeds are as big as from Cambridge to Leicester or Birmingham, even with the need to change trains at Peterborough. I don't see having to change to get from Stansted or Cambridge to Leicester or Birmingham as an obstacle to severing the through service. As I've said before (many times) the Cambridge-Birmingham and Norwich-Liverpool split is an administrative convenience not driven by passenger flows.



My preference is class 755s Stansted-Peterborough, and run by Greater Anglia.

While I accept much of what you say I think this is a case for more rather than fewer long distance trains to the north and Midlands. Aside from Brighton and Gatwick I can’t think of any cities with such huge passenger numbers (more than 10 million per annum) with such poor through services to the North and Midlands. Cambridge is likely to hit 20 million per annum within the next decade and there must be huge untapped potential for long distance services to Leeds/Newcastle. By removing the change Leeds to Cambridge could be done in about 2hrs 15, and Newcastle around 3hrs.

 

[TheBigD]

The flows Peterborough/March-Cambridge South are latent, and can be forecasted. The railway has to anticipate change, which is only a year away, not wait and only respond after it has happened.

Cambridge South is widely expected to reach 2 million entries and exits per year, and quickly. The pattern of travel at Cambridge is a good guide to where those journeys will be from and to. Peterborough ranks 9th on Cambridge's list of destinations, and it is just ahead of Norwich and Kings Lynn. Looked at from the other end, Cambridge is 3rd most important destination for Peterborough and 2nd for March. Bear in mind also the flows between Cambridge and ECML destinations where passengers are changing at Peterborough already.

There will be lots of people wanting to travel Peterborough/March-Cambridge South and the railway needs to be ready for it when the station opens. That means the December 2025 timetable. I'm confident that, with direct trains, Peterborough-Cambridge South will be a bigger flow than Cambridge-Birmingham very quickly. It is bad business for the railway to dismiss that as theoretical.


You are right. But when Cambridge South opens, the traffic flows will change and what gives needs to change too.

Given the current comparatively poor service from the Peterborough/March line* compared to the Lynn and Norwich lines there is potential for a fair bit of growth should the line get a better/more frequent service.
The service has yet to return to hourly (currently 1 round trip missing). There is also plenty of capacity on the 3 car 170s that work all services though the current set up sees some overcrowding CBG-ELY northbound as there is a 25 minute gap in CBG-ELY services (reduced to 15 minutes from Dec 25).

* From PBO/MCH the first direct arrival in to CBG is not until 0810 compared to 06:50 from NRW, and 0537 from KLN.
From Cambridge, the last train to MCH/PBO is at 2100 compared to 2255 for NRW, and 0005 for KLN.

 

[Topological]

While I accept much of what you say I think this is a case for more rather than fewer long distance trains to the north and Midlands. Aside from Brighton and Gatwick I can’t think of any cities with such huge passenger numbers (more than 10 million per annum) with such poor through services to the North and Midlands. Cambridge is likely to hit 20 million per annum within the next decade and there must be huge untapped potential for long distance services to Leeds/Newcastle. By removing the change Leeds to Cambridge could be done in about 2hrs 15, and Newcastle around 3hrs.

To be fair @Magdalia has always been arguing for more CrossCountry.

The challenge is that CrossCountry have at best a 3-car 170 and that does not provide the capacity needed to serve multiple Cambridge stations. A longer-term aspiration would be to get longer trains (and maybe more destinations) running on the Peterborough route.

The suggestion of the 720 was more to ensure all 3 Cambridge stations were better linked and that there was capacity in the short term.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

To be fair @Magdalia has always been arguing for more CrossCountry.

The challenge is that CrossCountry have at best a 3-car 170 and that does not provide the capacity needed to serve multiple Cambridge stations. A longer-term aspiration would be to get longer trains (and maybe more destinations) running on the Peterborough route.

The suggestion of the 720 was more to ensure all 3 Cambridge stations were better linked and that there was capacity in the short term.

This is a classic investment on one side (infrastructure) and not completing investment in the other (rolling stock). This discussion does make me think though how important the Ely upgrade is and will it provide enough paths to cope with demand

 

[RailWonderer]

mods note - split from this thread

Can CrossCountry really afford to do that considering how busy the 170's are?

As said by previous posters, XC called at Audley End years ago and no longer do. On the SWML they no longer call at Brockenhurst and soon even Winchester owing to lack of capacity so they aren't about to start adding calls at stations that will be busy when open.

The challenge is that CrossCountry have at best a 3-car 170 and that does not provide the capacity needed to serve multiple Cambridge stations. A longer-term aspiration would be to get longer trains (and maybe more destinations) running on the Peterborough route.

Exactly. The way I see it is a compromise - you have an hourly 5 car 720 Stansted - Cambridge North to provide better connectivity and frequency with the XC service, or you overcrowd an hourly 3 car 170 by picking up Cambridge North and South calls.