Applied a railcard discount when not entitled to

[Egg_1]

I travelled on a train for 10 mins, landed at Birmingham New Street, and then I realised I bought the ticket using a 16-17 Saver discount, which I was not entitled to.

I gave the revenue inspector a fake DOB and address, but I decided I will pay the fine by email.

I got the email and was ready to pay a £50 penalty, but it was £190.00 since admin fees included.

Now I feel like not paying anything when the revenue inspector who stopped me said I'll pay £50 if I paid within 21 days and didn't say anything about admin fees.

Will they try to chase me down, and also can they prosecute me and give me a criminal record without me attending court?

Note I have also replied to their email so they know they can contact me one way, but this is just too much for a £2 difference.

What's your thoughts on this, and what should I do?

 

[High Dyke]

Others will give further advice on this. However, the important thing is do not ignore it. The situation could develop if you fail to engage/respond to this properly.

 

[Egg_1]

Others will give further advice on this. However, the important thing is do not ignore it. The situation could develop if you fail to engage/respond to this properly.

Others will give further advice on this. However, the important thing is do not ignore it. The situation could develop if you fail to engage/respond to this properly.

I'm just wondering its a one off and it was a genuine mistake. All they want is money, but idk how likely it is to try to chase me for a one off. Also they scanned my ticket I brought from TrainLine which I used a guest account and an email which they were able to contact me and they said that since I paid on the trainline app they can charge me, how true is this as I used apple pay to buy this??? also gave them my old address which I dont live there anymore so do they have a database or something to see who lived there etc?

 

[signed]

All they want is money, but idk how likely it is to try to chase me for a one off.

They will, that's a given, under any circumstance do NOT IGNORE

and they said that since I paid on the trainline app they can charge me

They have the right to examine your ticketing history with online retailers. The online retailler being Trainline, the payement method you used doesn't matter. If you used guest and the same email, they are likely combining

 

[WesternLancer]

So you reckon they'll try to chase me down and also can they prosecute me and give me a criminal record without me attending court.

Yes, they can do this and almost certainly will if you do not engage with it.

It will likely escalate to prosecution at a magistrates court, you will be be sentenced in your absence, given a court fine and receive a criminal record if you do not engage with this. The Court Bailiffs will almost certainly find you in the fullness of time by which time the sum you own will have increased substantially.

I suspect you are confusing the £100 / £50 Penalty Fare information you see on posters at railway stations with what has happened, which sounds more like you were 'reported for investigation' of which this is the outcome at the first stage. It does not sound like you were issued with Penalty Fare, which can only be issued at the time.

Use of tickets discounted by railcards that people don't have is something that usually gets reported for investigation as the railway company know that when they catch people doing this it's not usually the first time they have done it - so they will have investigated your trainline account already I suspect - if you have bought tickets with a 16-17 railcard discount that you are not entitled to on other occasions they will know about this and be seeking payment for the tickets concerned.

If you upload copies of the paperwork given on the day and e-mails you have received since (with your personal details blanked out) people can check exactly what has happened and where you are at in the process, and give you a clearer idea of what will happen if you do not pay.

I would imagine it's not hard to find your real address by checking back on the details used in your payment method.

Travelling without a correct ticket is a criminal offence which means they can access data about this for the 'purposes of the prevention of crime'

 

[Egg_1]

Yes, they can do this and almost certainly will if you do not engage with it.

It will likely escalate to prosecution at a magistrates court, you will be be sentenced in your absence, given a court fine and receive a criminal record if you do not engage with this. The Court Bailiffs will almost certainly find you in the fullness of time by which time the sum you own will have increased substantially.

I suspect you are confusing the £100 / £50 Penalty Fare information you see on posters at railway stations with what has happened, which sounds more like you were 'reported for investigation' of which this is the outcome at the first stage. It does not sound like you were issued with Penalty Fare, which can only be issued at the time.

This is the first email they sent me:
We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on xxxxxx when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



West Midlands Trains take travel fraud seriously and are committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as such, a single offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, a criminal record.



Consideration will be taken as to whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006, in particular ‘Fraud by false representation’.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Egg_1. Welcome to the forum. So, basically, you've bought an inappropriately discounted half-price ticket to travel with, and then try to get through the barriers at Birmingham New Street with, but don't actually have the corresponding, valid, in date, railcard, and/or you're over age. You've then provided the revenue protection staff there with both a non-current address and a moody date of birth. Seems to me that the railway company will now have spent some time and effort in reviewing your ticket purchasing history and attempting to track you down, and, as well as that, you've likely also landed someone at the old address with a spot of hassle. Is that the gist of it?

Would suggest that it might be best for you if you were to now stump up the amount required so as to stop the matter from further escalating and you ending up with a court conviction, all for what was a tiny fare saving. Good luck in sorting but if you were hopeful of just ending up with a £50 penalty fare, you won't!

 

[WesternLancer]

This is the first email they sent me:
We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on xxxxxx when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



West Midlands Trains take travel fraud seriously and are committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as such, a single offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, a criminal record.



Consideration will be taken as to whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006, in particular ‘Fraud by false representation’.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks - so nothing in that about a Penalty Fare then - but it's clear what they are doing from what they tell you here.

Did you reply to it in any way? If so what did you say?

I presume you have received a further e-mail or letter asking for £190? What else did that say.

 

[Haywain]

So you reckon they'll try to chase me down

No, they won't "chase you down". They will take you to court, and successfully prosecute you for a criminal offence and when you don't pay the fine the case will be handed to bailiffs and they WILL find you. By then it will be a lot more expensive and a lot more hassle.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is the first email they sent me:
We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on xxxxxx when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



West Midlands Trains take travel fraud seriously and are committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as such, a single offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, a criminal record.



Consideration will be taken as to whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006, in particular ‘Fraud by false representation’.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.

Yes. You have been reported for prosecution. You were caught while revealing committing the offence; this is a criminal matter.

This will not go away.

 

[Egg_1]

Thanks - so nothing in that about a Penalty Fare then - but it's clear what they are doing from what they tell you here.

Did you reply to it in any way? If so what did you say?

I presume you have received a further e-mail or letter asking for £190? What else did that say.

Thank you for your response.

We can see this was a one off and wish to settle out of court with you.

Total amount owed is £190.00 and this includes our admin fee.

This would need to be settled on or before xxth May 2025.

Here are the payment details.

I wrote a letter saying that I was sorry, it was a first time and I asked if I could pay the difference instead and this is what they wrote back. Like I said I wouldn’t mind paying the £50 thing but £190!!!

 

[skyhigh]

You say you gave your old address and a fake DOB. Do they have your name? If so, it'll be easy to trace you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for your response.

We can see this was a one off and wish to settle out of court with you.

Total amount owed is £190.00 and this includes our admin fee.

This would need to be settled on or before xxth May 2025.

Here are the payment details.

I wrote a letter saying that I was sorry, it was a first time and I asked if I could pay the difference instead and this is what they wrote back. Like I said I wouldn’t mind paying the £50 thing but £190!!!

You’re lucky they aren’t prosecuting you for giving false details, which is also an offence. If they discover that, you’ll just be in more trouble, and they can easily trace you from your purchase history and/or payment method.

 

[Egg_1]

Yes. You have been reported for prosecution. You were caught while revealing committing the offence; this is a criminal matter.

This will not go away.

So if I pay I wont get a criminal record,go to court and it wont appear on a dbs?

 

[signed]

So if I pay I wont get a criminal record,go to court and it wont appear on a dbs?

Yes, it will only be between you at WMT

This is however your warning to make sure you pay the correct fare every time, if you re-offend, they may not be willing to settle.

 

[AlterEgo]

So if I pay I wont get a criminal record,go to court and it wont appear on a dbs?

Correct.

 

[WesternLancer]

So if I pay I wont get a criminal record,go to court and it wont appear on a dbs?

If you pay what they are asking (and it would help to see the e-mail as mentioned I suspect to be sure) then you should keep proof of payment and keep that long term - at least a year - and keep copies of all the e-mails related to this.

 

[Egg_1]

Thanks I just hope that they would reduce the fee which is unlikely but I'll pay whatever they want

also 1 last thing this is 100% west midlands train or whatever details:

Account Name: WMT Ltd - Digital Prosecutions

Sort Code: 30 80 12

Account Number: 24429068

 

[signed]

That account number has appeared on another thread in this forum, so if the sender email address is correct then it's the correct account

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks I just hope that they would reduce the fee which is unlikely but I'll pay whatever they want

so there is a way forward with co-operating with them but you need to share the stuff here so people can see - so that is to establish how they have arrived at the £190 sum they are asking for

some of this will be admin (maybe £150 - do they say how much?) and the rest may be fares they think you have avoided charged at the Anytime Single fare price

if you can set out more of the detail of what they are asking you for people can help advise you if what they are asking for is correct or whether you can realistically expect them to reduce it. However, I see from the copy you have posted in post #11 they have not given you much in the way of details.

set aside all the stuff about what the inspector told you on the day about it being £50 etc and focus on what is in the messages you have been sent - if you think it does not reflect travel they will have found on your on line booking records then you can ask them for a break down of the sum they are requesting and what it is made up of. If you do that I would advise writing in polite and respectful terms to them.

However, if you have been finding various ways to evade fares by not paying for your full journey or buying tickets with Railcards you don't own it would probably not be a good idea to debate it with them as they may find more that you have done wrong and the price might go up....

You will know what you have been doing regarding what tickets you buy I am sure.

 

[Cuthbert]

If you do not trust the payment thing someone on another post said they went to a station to pay.

 

[Egg_1]

so there is a way forward with co-operating with them but you need to share the stuff here so people can see - so that is to establish how they have arrived at the £190 sum they are asking for

some of this will be admin (maybe £150 - do they say how much?) and the rest may be fares they think you have avoided charged at the Anytime Single fare price

if you can set out more of the detail of what they are asking you for people can help advise you if what they are asking for is correct or whether you can realistically expect them to reduce it

set aside all the stuff about what the inspector told you on the day about it being £50 etc and focus on what is in the messages you have been sent - if you think it does not reflect travel they will have found on your on line booking records then you can ask them for a break down

However, if you have been finding various ways to evade fares by not paying for your full journey or buying tickets with Railcards you don't own it would probably not be a good idea to debate it with them as they may find more that you have done wrong and the price might go up....

You will know what you have been doing regarding what tickets you buy I am sure.

Yh its weird but here was the first email:
We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on xxxxxx when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



West Midlands Trains take travel fraud seriously and are committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as such, a single offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, a criminal record.



Consideration will be taken as to whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006, in particular ‘Fraud by false representation’.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.


I replied with: I would first like to sincerely apologise for the situation. This was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare. I purchased a ticket using the Trainline app and mistakenly selected the 16–17 railcard option, not realising it applied a discount I was not entitled to. I did not hold such a railcard, and I understand this was wrong in hindsight. Also on my Trainline app it only shows 1 ticket I purchased and it was this one so it was a genuine mistake. I want to stress that I had no intent to commit fraud, and I deeply regret the mistake. I take full responsibility for what happened.




And they sent this today morning:

Thank you for your response.

We can see this was a one off and wish to settle out of court with you.

Total amount owed is £189.50 and this includes our admin fee.

This would need to be settled on or before xxth May 2025.

payment details:

Account Name: WMT Ltd - Digital Prosecutions

Sort Code: 30 80 12

Account Number: 24429068


Make sure to put your reference number in so we can link the payment to yourself.

Email us with confirmation of payment being made and once payment has been received, we will send a receipt and close the case down this can take up to 10 business days.

Information we must inform you of; if we have not received an email for payment a gentle reminder may be sent and if a late payment is made you could incur further fees and if no payment is made then the case will be escalated to our prosecutions team.

Kind regards,

 

[WesternLancer]

Yh its weird but here was the first email:
We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on xxxxxx when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



West Midlands Trains take travel fraud seriously and are committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as such, a single offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, a criminal record.



Consideration will be taken as to whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006, in particular ‘Fraud by false representation’.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.


I replied with: I would first like to sincerely apologise for the situation. This was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare. I purchased a ticket using the Trainline app and mistakenly selected the 16–17 railcard option, not realising it applied a discount I was not entitled to. I did not hold such a railcard, and I understand this was wrong in hindsight. Also on my Trainline app it only shows 1 ticket I purchased and it was this one so it was a genuine mistake. I want to stress that I had no intent to commit fraud, and I deeply regret the mistake. I take full responsibility for what happened.




And they sent this today morning:

Thank you for your response.

We can see this was a one off and wish to settle out of court with you.

Total amount owed is £189.50 and this includes our admin fee.

This would need to be settled on or before xxth May 2025.

payment details:

Account Name: WMT Ltd - Digital Prosecutions

Sort Code: 30 80 12

Account Number: 24429068


Make sure to put your reference number in so we can link the payment to yourself.

Email us with confirmation of payment being made and once payment has been received, we will send a receipt and close the case down this can take up to 10 business days.

Information we must inform you of; if we have not received an email for payment a gentle reminder may be sent and if a late payment is made you could incur further fees and if no payment is made then the case will be escalated to our prosecutions team.

Kind regards,

I suspect the only route to go down ref the total sum requested is to write to re most recent message eg

‘Thank you for your message.
I would be grateful if you were able to give me a breakdown of the sum requested.
This is because when I was questioned by your staff on the day I was lead to believe I would expect to pay a sum along the lines of the amount required by a Penalty Fare.
It would help if you could breakdown the administrative fee and the fare owed’

But be mindful of my points before about provoking any suspicions they might have. Plus they can withdraw these offers if they wish and switch to prosecution so there is always a risk they might do that.

If you are worried about the payment process. As mentioned above you could ask to arrange to go and pay in person at a station.

 

[ikcdab]

Yh its weird but here was the first email:
We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on xxxxxx when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



West Midlands Trains take travel fraud seriously and are committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as such, a single offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, a criminal record.



Consideration will be taken as to whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006, in particular ‘Fraud by false representation’.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.


I replied with: I would first like to sincerely apologise for the situation. This was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare. I purchased a ticket using the Trainline app and mistakenly selected the 16–17 railcard option, not realising it applied a discount I was not entitled to. I did not hold such a railcard, and I understand this was wrong in hindsight. Also on my Trainline app it only shows 1 ticket I purchased and it was this one so it was a genuine mistake. I want to stress that I had no intent to commit fraud, and I deeply regret the mistake. I take full responsibility for what happened.




And they sent this today morning:

Thank you for your response.

We can see this was a one off and wish to settle out of court with you.

Total amount owed is £189.50 and this includes our admin fee.

This would need to be settled on or before xxth May 2025.

payment details:

Account Name: WMT Ltd - Digital Prosecutions

Sort Code: 30 80 12

Account Number: 24429068


Make sure to put your reference number in so we can link the payment to yourself.

Email us with confirmation of payment being made and once payment has been received, we will send a receipt and close the case down this can take up to 10 business days.

Information we must inform you of; if we have not received an email for payment a gentle reminder may be sent and if a late payment is made you could incur further fees and if no payment is made then the case will be escalated to our prosecutions team.

Kind regards,

You don't get to pick and choose how much penalty you pay. You have committed two criminal acts; the invalid ticket and giving false name and address. They are perfectly at liberty to take you to the magistrates court where you will be convicted and the fine will be much higher. They have offered you a settlement of £190. You are best advised to pay this by the due date or things will rapidly get far more complicated and expensive. They will have no trouble at all tracking you down.

 

[30907]

Purely for info: WMT (rightly or wrongly) normally quote £175 as the admin cost. For a short local trip the amount seems plausible.

 

[Egg_1]

Guys last thing (sorry). I asked for a break down of where the £181.50 admin fees came from and they have said replying to my email:

Thank you for your response.



What you are stating is a Penalty Fare, however you were interviewed under caution which means court action.



Your ticket on the day was £6.50 and with our admin fee of £175.00 totals to £181.50.



If you wish to go to court further fees will be applied totalling just under £500.00.



Kind regards,


Fraud and Investigations Manager

We will reply without any undue delay no later than 20 working days, please do not attend our head office in Birmingham as the West Midlands Trains Digital Fraud team are not based in this location.

The quickest way to contact us is via an email.

I will pay it today or tomorrow but £175 for one ticket seems a lot no? I seen people get way cheaper admin fee's. Also I assume this varies from different railways or which company manages it like this ones West Midlands but a different one like Southern handles the fees differently? Again I'll pay but why do they make it this high especially if its one ticket, like why you charging me this much for one ticket when I showed the revenue inspector my trainline's ticket history?

 

[AlterEgo]

Presumably each company values their staff’s time differently. In your case they had to investigate your past ticket history. Southern/GTR sometimes don’t. Giving them false details won’t have helped.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .DO pay this £181.50 NOW without any further queries please – it's the ONLY chance you will have of keeping the matter out of court with the inevitable repercussions on your finances, DBS record, possible repercussions on getting any form of insurance, phone contracts and other things that CAN be potentially affected by a court conviction – if you pay NOW you can still legitimately say "NO" to any application form asking for details of pending OR past conversations – if they do take the case to the Magistrates, you WILL have to declare it to many insurers, many employers, many universities, etc., for up to 12 months afterwards – if you don't do this after a Magistrates Court has dealt with you you'll really WILL be dropped right in a huge trough of rocking–horse poo!

. . .There are two T.O.C.'s, Great Western Railway and Govia Thameslink Railway that do have a known reputation for being much more lenient with "admin" settlement fees in these cases, but NEVER hope or rely on this – either of them COULD without any warning or notice, decide to have a "blitz" on Fare Evasion issues, and clamp down with a much harsher penalty "out of the blue", and the ONLY way to avoid any bother with ANY TOC is to buy the right ticket with the right Railcard, each and every time, always make your Railcard is in date and if you're not sure, ask at the Ticket Office, or, if the station is unmanned with Ticket Machines, show your ticket to the Train Conductor whilst he's supervising the train before closing the doors, if there's time to do so!

. . .I have never worked on any railway, or for any train operator or bus operator, etc., I am an electronics engineer by profession and my advice is based solely on decades of harsh and discriminatory treatment meted out to me by very bad school teachers, employers' managers, and those people employed on public transport that are given legitimate authority over me whilst I'm using their services, that have a reputation for being officious, unfriendly and generally hostile and a "jobs worth", and that's all!

 

[John R]

I suggest you now pay. I suspect any more prevarication and further correspondence with WMT may result in the offer being withdrawn.

Ultimately you chose to apply a railcard discount that didn’t apply to you and committed a criminal offence in doing so. You followed that up by giving incorrect details which is another criminal offence. Your choice now is to pay under £200 to avoid getting a criminal record and a much bigger fine, or to continue to stall and end up with a conviction. It should be an easy decision to make.

 

[WesternLancer]

Guys last thing (sorry). I asked for a break down of where the £181.50 admin fees came from and they have said replying to my email:

Thank you for your response.



What you are stating is a Penalty Fare, however you were interviewed under caution which means court action.



Your ticket on the day was £6.50 and with our admin fee of £175.00 totals to £181.50.



If you wish to go to court further fees will be applied totalling just under £500.00.



Kind regards,


Fraud and Investigations Manager

We will reply without any undue delay no later than 20 working days, please do not attend our head office in Birmingham as the West Midlands Trains Digital Fraud team are not based in this location.

The quickest way to contact us is via an email.

I will pay it today or tomorrow but £175 for one ticket seems a lot no? I seen people get way cheaper admin fee's. Also I assume this varies from different railways or which company manages it like this ones West Midlands but a different one like Southern handles the fees differently? Again I'll pay but why do they make it this high especially if its one ticket, like why you charging me this much for one ticket when I showed the revenue inspector my trainline's ticket history?

It’s steep but I think £175 is standard admin fee WMR charge iirc. I think you will have to pay this to avoid court. And court would almost certainly cost more.