Should local authorities subsidise taxi journeys in areas without public transport?

[PTR 444]

Even as somebody who would desire for every single village in the UK to be connected by a regular, secure bus service, I recognise that this is just not financially possible and the situation is highly unlikely to improve with dwindling passenger numbers and staff shortages. DRT is an option that has been tried and tested to resolve this, but is plagued with many issues of its own which have already been discussed at great length. I therefore propose an alternative to communities cut-off from public transport in the form of local authorities subsidising taxi journeys.

Obviously, such a scheme would have to be means tested to ensure that residents served by public transport do not become advantaged by a cheap taxi, therefore I propose that only residents of properties more than a mile from the nearest bus stop/train station, or half a mile for people with limited mobility, would be eligible for this scheme. It could work either by expanding the existing ENCTS scheme whereby showing the taxi driver a pass would require them to charge a concessionary fare, or have a taxicard scheme where eligible residents pay an annual fee for a set number of discounted journeys within x miles of their home address. This would discourage use of taxis solely for long-distance journeys, but provide residents with a vital link to their nearest town and encourage transfer there to other modes of transport for cheaper onward journeys.

Would this idea work in practice?

 

[Ken H]

Even as somebody who would desire for every single village in the UK to be connected by a regular, secure bus service, I recognise that this is just not financially possible and the situation is highly unlikely to improve with dwindling passenger numbers and staff shortages. DRT is an option that has been tried and tested to resolve this, but is plagued with many issues of its own which have already been discussed at great length. I therefore propose an alternative to communities cut-off from public transport in the form of local authorities subsidising taxi journeys.

Obviously, such a scheme would have to be means tested to ensure that residents served by public transport do not become advantaged by a cheap taxi, therefore I propose that only residents of properties more than a mile from the nearest bus stop/train station, or half a mile for people with limited mobility, would be eligible for this scheme. It could work either by expanding the existing ENCTS scheme whereby showing the taxi driver a pass would require them to charge a concessionary fare, or have a taxicard scheme where eligible residents pay an annual fee for a set number of discounted journeys within x miles of their home address. This would discourage use of taxis solely for long-distance journeys, but provide residents with a vital link to their nearest town and encourage transfer there to other modes of transport for cheaper onward journeys.

Would this idea work in practice?

Getting a taxi where I live is impossible mornings and late afternoons because they are all doing school runs. So using a subsidised taxi for getting to work would be difficult. In rural areas there are often 1 or 2 taxis to cover a wide area.

I live in a place poorly served by buses. When I am unable to drive as I get older, I know I will have to move. Living where I do and relying on public transport to get me to work would be impossible. Actually I work a short week and work 100% from home.

 

[NoRoute]

Currently and quite likely for the foreseeable future, local authorities are so financially stretched they can barely deliver their legal obligations, existing public transport services along with many other local services are being cut. So in that context I cannot see local authorities introducing new transport subsidy schemes without a significant increase in funding.

 

[HSTEd]

In the labour-limited future I doubt taxi services are going to be significantly cheaper to operate than buses....

 

[6Gman]

I think this has been done in the past with local authorities allowing National Travel Tokens (I think that's what they were called) eligible for use for bus or taxi use.

The switch to ENCTS killed it off.

 

[PTR 444]

Currently and quite likely for the foreseeable future, local authorities are so financially stretched they can barely deliver their legal obligations, existing public transport services along with many other local services are being cut. So in that context I cannot see local authorities introducing new transport subsidy schemes without a significant increase in funding.

Surely local authorities would use the money saved from withdrawing bus support to subsidise taxi journeys for those passengers instead? If that’s still too expensive, you could limit a taxi subsidy scheme to elderly and disabled passengers only.

 

[mike57]

At the risk of upsetting people, my view is:

If you choose to live in an area with poor or non-existent public transport then that comes at a price, e.g. the need to run and maintain a car(s) or reliance on taxis. Why should the local authority (in other words taxpayers of one sort or another) subsidise taxis. I realise this then opens the whole debate on subsidies, but I think it boils down to percentage of people who benefit, I suspect that the number of people who live more than a mile from public transport is a small proportion of the overall population, and the provision for other groups such as the disabled is dealt with by other routes such as the Motorbility scheme.

In our case we chose our current location because it still has a railway station, its a quiet village, but with the advantage of a rail link. It enabled us go from 2 to 1 cars when we moved from our previous location with no public transport. The reality for us is on the odd occasions where we are heading off separately at the same time one of us can use the train, and for some journeys train is actually more convenient.

 

[PeterC]

At the risk of upsetting people, my view is:

If you choose to live in an area with poor or non-existent public transport then that comes at a price, e.g. the need to run and maintain a car(s) or reliance on taxis. Why should the local authority (in other words taxpayers of one sort or another) subsidise taxis. I realise this then opens the whole debate on subsidies, but I think it boils down to percentage of people who benefit, I suspect that the number of people who live more than a mile from public transport is a small proportion of the overall population, and the provision for other groups such as the disabled is dealt with by other routes such as the Motorbility scheme.

In our case we chose our current location because it still has a railway station, its a quiet village, but with the advantage of a rail link. It enabled us go from 2 to 1 cars when we moved from our previous location with no public transport. The reality for us is on the odd occasions where we are heading off separately at the same time one of us can use the train, and for some journeys train is actually more convenient.

You may well have had a regular bus service when you moved there. My village has gone from 2bph to 5 per day since I moved in 25 years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may well have had a regular bus service when you moved there. My village has gone from 2bph to 5 per day since I moved in 25 years ago.

Not just villages. The estate I used to live in in MK (Furzton) used to have a fairly good service - two reliable half hourly daytime routes and two hourly evening routes (which were slightly different from the daytime ones). Now - nothing at all, zilch, nada, other than a useless DRT system and taxis or a long walk to the nearest bus stop.

In my current estate I've lost one of my local routes but the other fortunately still runs.

Ironically Furzton is passed on one side by a 3bph service which could easily be diverted at basically no cost to serve it or stops built on that side (there are none, and hail and ride is not safely possible as it's a 60mph main road with no pavements), but that seems to be too much effort.

 

[RailWonderer]

Why not a subscription minibus service? It runs door to door to pick up the elderly. Where I live the bus is used exclusively by students and the elderly. The students could have their own bus service, so fewer drivers and vehicles which are cheaper to run. In third world countries and even in China, you see minibuses everywhere because they are cheap to use and take you anywhere you need.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not a subscription minibus service? It runs door to door to pick up the elderly. Where I live the bus is used exclusively by students and the elderly. The students could have their own bus service, so fewer drivers and vehicles which are cheaper to run. In third world countries and even in China, you see minibuses everywhere because they are cheap to use and take you anywhere you need.

They're cheap in those countries for very specific reasons - labour is very cheap. It's not here, so the concept doesn't work. There's a reason why the main big bus companies like, er, big buses.

 

[WelshBluebird]

At the risk of upsetting people, my view is:

If you choose to live in an area with poor or non-existent public transport then that comes at a price, e.g. the need to run and maintain a car(s) or reliance on taxis.

The problem there is there are a lot or places rest did have good public transport (maybe a half hourly or hourly bus) 5 years or so ago but now barely get anything. Bus cuts have been savage in some areas (and are still going).

 

[RailWonderer]

The problem there is there are a lot or places rest did have good public transport (maybe a half hourly or hourly bus) 5 years or so ago but now barely get anything. Bus cuts have been savage in some areas (and are still going).

In my area, the bus was half hourly, then they cut it to hourly, then a few years ago went back to half hourly and post covid it's now hourly again and council run on weekends.

They're cheap in those countries for very specific reasons - labour is very cheap. It's not here, so the concept doesn't work. There's a reason why the main big bus companies like, er, big buses.

Aren't bigger busses more expensive to run? And in my area, they are mostly carting fresh air besides one morning and one evening bus.

 

[mike57]

You may well have had a regular bus service when you moved there. My village has gone from 2bph to 5 per day since I moved in 25 years ago.

We had about 8 buses a day, but the rail service was more sparse, about 8 trains each way spread over a 14 hour 'day'. The rail service is now hourly from about 7am until 9pm (roughly). I think the imrovement in the rail service was death knell of the bus, its 6 mins on the train, and 50p cheaper than a bus that takes nearly 30mins assuming you are paying full fare if you are travelling to Bridlington which is the nearest town. If you are travelling the other way towards Filey and Scarborough then there haven't been any buses heading that way since we have lived here and I suspect never.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't bigger busses more expensive to run? And in my area, they are mostly carting fresh air besides one morning and one evening bus.

Bigger buses with more people on them are more viable. If yours is genuinely carting fresh air, don't expect it to be around much longer.

 

[HSTEd]

Aren't bigger busses more expensive to run? And in my area, they are mostly carting fresh air besides one morning and one evening bus.

The cost of everything non-labour associated with running the bus grows increasingly small compared to the cost of the driver. As our technology has improved labour costs have grown faster than fuel and maintenance costs (which may even have shrunk).

Being able to carry as many passengers as you can when the bus is busy can easily increase your net income relative to a "calibrated" bus that leaves people behind at peak times.

MY parents "village" on the outskirts of a market town had two buses an hour and hourly on Sundays when I was at school - it now has 5 buses a day Monday-Friday, 3 on Saturday and nothing on Sunday.

Given our crushing housing shortage, I'm also not sure we can fault people for living in the one place they can afford.....
But we have to pony up the capital for public transport systems that don't require a vast underclass of peasants to operate

 

[miklcct]

I would say that 10 passengers every 15 minutes in a single direction during daytime will make a proper all-day turn-up-and-go minibus service (which means at most 15 minutes headway) feasible.

Are there so many villages in the UK which don't even see 40 people leaving their home in an hour? I have read somewhere that, 1000 people in a village is the minimum population for an authority to provide an all-day from dawn to midnight, every day of the week, hourly public transport service in a certain European country (I can't remember which).

Or we should bring back bus franchising which forces operators to cross-subsidy unprofitable services using its profitable services, while ensuring the whole network is profitable.

 

[Ken H]

I would say that 10 passengers every 15 minutes in a single direction during daytime will make a proper all-day turn-up-and-go minibus service (which means at most 15 minutes headway) feasible.

Are there so many villages in the UK which don't even see 40 people leaving their home in an hour? I have read somewhere that, 1000 people in a village is the minimum population for an authority to provide an all-day from dawn to midnight, every day of the week, hourly public transport service in a certain European country (I can't remember which).

Or we should bring back bus franchising which forces operators to cross-subsidy unprofitable services using its profitable services, while ensuring the whole network is profitable.

1000 people is quite a village. Ours has 300 some of which are in the parish but are on farms. And there are 3 clusters in the village so the bit with the church and village hall (where I live) is probably under 150 people.
3 buses a day. Dont go near supermarket. So I drive the mile and a half to the nearby market town.
Wife has gone to hospital 35 miles away. She has to be there at 0650. Daughter is driving her there now.

 

[telstarbox]

It also depends on demographics. Broadly a village of 1000 in South Yorks might generate more bus demand than in Surrey.

 

[RT4038]

I would say that 10 passengers every 15 minutes in a single direction during daytime will make a proper all-day turn-up-and-go minibus service (which means at most 15 minutes headway) feasible.

There are substantial suburbs in towns / urban areas that do not generate a quarter of that number of bus passengers, let alone villages.

Are there so many villages in the UK which don't even see 40 people leaving their home in an hour? I have read somewhere that, 1000 people in a village is the minimum population for an authority to provide an all-day from dawn to midnight, every day of the week, hourly public transport service in a certain European country (I can't remember which).

Very heavily subsdised, no doubt. Which seems unlikely to be copied in the UK.

Or we should bring back bus franchising which forces operators to cross-subsidy unprofitable services using its profitable services, while ensuring the whole network is profitable.

It is not the bus operators doing the cross subsidising in this case, it is the franchising authority. Now there are few profitable services anyway, how is this going to work without substantial funding from the public purse?

 

[Ken H]

Or we should bring back bus franchising which forces operators to cross-subsidy unprofitable services using its profitable services, while ensuring the whole network is profitable.

The notion that Tilling and BET subsidiaries provided bus services to villages every hour in the past is risible. Many villages saw one out and back service a week on market days. The rest of the time you stayed at home, scrounged a lift or walked.
Look on timetable world for some of the services in the vale of York, and East Cumbria in the 50's and 60's
Loads of services with stuff like MTThO or NW in the column header ('Monday, Tuesady and Thursdays only' and 'Not Wednesday')

 

[Sm5]

Should local authorities subsidise taxi journeys in areas without public transport?​

no.
definitely no.

if theres no public transport its because there isnt enough demand for it.
That means not enough people need it.
That falls into buckets like not enough people, too many with alternatives (car being the obvious one), not enough people needing to go where the bus is going Etc.

Eitherway giving people a cheap taxi at the tax payers expense is not the answer, nor is it fair. This means tested rubbish is unfair too as if someone is just outside that test, chances are they are for a whole bunch of other things which simply stack up and conspire against them… it just encourages low salaries.

Unfortunately the real world is harsh, I work in London, pay high taxes, yet it comes with a high commute as I cant afford a place in the centre.. yet many hundreds of thousands on benefits with no income get to benefit from my taxes and live right in Zone 1/2, get subsidized bus fares etc because its “their right“ to have support in a place they choose, whilst its apparently not my right as a hard working tax payer, nor do I have a choice about subsidising “their rights”.

its only the UK that has this system… If you cant support yourself where you live, I’m sorry, but change it… earn more, change job or move… thats what tax payers have to do afterall. This is how the world works outside Britain.

Thats why we ended up in the Brexit mess, everyone expects the handout and resents it when someone hard working turns up and is more willing to work… because where they were wasnt working and so they got up and changed it… if more people here did that, we might have more prosperity, instead we cries of “tax them more because there better off than I”.

if theres enough demand for taxis, they will see the oppourtunity and come, if theres demand for a minibus, some enterprising soul will do it… let the market do its job. When ever theres failure, theres always oppourtunity… you just need to get up and look for it, not hold out a hand and expect free cash… The government has got to wean itself off this hand out culture..

unfortunately if it means some places simply become economically unaffordable, then turn it into a Ghosttown and sell the place as a museum.

 

[RT4038]

Should local authorities subsidise taxi journeys in areas without public transport?​

Unfortunately the real world is harsh, I work in London, pay high taxes, yet it comes with a high commute as I cant afford a place in the centre.. yet many hundreds of thousands on benefits with no income get to benefit from my taxes and live right in Zone 1/2, get subsidized bus fares etc because its “their right“ to have support in a place they choose, whilst its apparently not my right as a hard working tax payer, nor do I have a choice about subsidising “their rights”.

So presumably your high commute is not subsidised in any way? Seems quite unlikely. I suspect you are only able to afford the 'high commute' because of other people providing labour at an artificially low rate. Of course you could live in Zone 1/2 and force these people to live far away, but I'm not sure where the workforce will come from to do your biding - perhaps by having a high commute and commanding high salaries - or by living on the streets and in their cars and robbing those who have any money, so they must live in fortresses. I can think of quite a few countries like that.

​

its only the UK that has this system… If you cant support yourself where you live, I’m sorry, but change it… earn more, change job or move… thats what tax payers have to do afterall. This is how the world works outside Britain.

No, it is not the UK that only has this system. Most European countries subsidise their public transport systems, and certain categories of passengers, far higher than the UK does. Of course, if you want to move towards the model of families living on the streets, in cars, derelict land etc.......
Some other countries have the system you espouse, but I am not sure they are places that many here would want to live in.

I am not convinced that subsidising taxis is a good idea, but not for any of the reasons suggested by @Sm5

 

[PTR 444]

Going off topic a bit but i am going to expand on why I believe dependency on the private car (or anything for that matter) is a completely bad idea, and not just for reasons of congestion and pollution.

Let’s begin with how the car revolutionised lifestyles for the majority of the population over the past 50 years. Before then, everyone had to rely on public transport to get to places as there was no alternative, but come the car everything changed. Quick, convenient point to point travel with no hassle. It was expensive at first but as more and more people owned a private vehicle, costs plummeted and ownership soared. Urban planners and businesses took the opportunity to cater for this market by relocating out of town centres to locations next to motorway junctions, and this is where the problems began.

You see, driving might be a nice convenient luxury for some people, but for others, myself included, it feels like a chore that makes life far more stressful, and that’s not including those who are incompetent or physically cannot drive at all for whatever reason. Those groups of people are the ones who are unfairly disadvantaged when the next high street business in town closes, or the no.58 bus to Little Dibley or wherever is reduced to an hourly service, driving even more people to use the car as they can no longer wait for the bus.

The point is that why should someone who was unfairly punished because nobody else in their village used their local bus be forced to buy a car? Just like why someone should be forced to buy a smartphone because their local car park now requires an app in order to pay.

For most residents, it wasn’t their fault that they lost their service, and in most cases provision was 4 times better when they first moved there. For this reason, I believe that residents should be compensated with some form of alternative provision. Yes, some people like myself might be capable of walking or cycling an extra two miles to the next nearest bus route, but that is not the case for everyone. If there is to be a replacement taxi scheme, it should at the very minimum be subsidised for the elderly and disabled if not anybody else.