Should the NPR services have 1st Class?

[Purple Orange]

A bit of a perennial debate about 1st v standard class, but with NPR services I wonder if it is suitable or not. This question is specifically about the Liverpool-York NPR services.

The Integrated Rail Plan (IRP) have a potential clue to how services that use the NPR line will run, with those being:

• 2 tph HS2 Birmingham-Manchester-Newcastle
• 2 tph HS2 London-Liverpool
• 4 tph NPR Liverpool-York

The HS2 services will probably have 1st class and may require compulsory seat reservations. The NPR services between Liverpool & York should be more commuter focussed, with no requirement for seat reservations and potentially should run more like the Southeastern HS1 services. The services will run for approximately 100 miles, with 7 stations on the route. The IRP has indicated a possible journey time of roughly 90 minutes. In my opinion, the NPR trains should have doors at thirds to aid passenger flow.

With all of that considered, I would argue that 1st class should not be included on Liverpool-York NPR services.

 

[jfollows]

Liverpool-Newcastle should have first class, yes, it's far enough to warrant it.
Probably the first time ever that I went first class was Liverpool-Manchester (Victoria) in the 1970s. My dad went to Liverpool on business and gave me his return ticket, which wasn't used, so I bought a single to Liverpool and came back in an early Mark 2 compartment first class to Manchester.
But, memories aside, Liverpool-York warrants an option for first class in my opinion, in which the service provider can offer more than different seats, if they want to. Back in the 1970s it was novelty to me but all I got was a larger seat.

 

[Purple Orange]

Liverpool-Newcastle should have first class, yes, it's far enough to warrant it.
Probably the first time ever that I went first class was Liverpool-Manchester (Victoria) in the 1970s. My dad went to Liverpool on business and gave me his return ticket, which wasn't used, so I bought a single to Liverpool and came back in an early Mark 2 compartment first class to Manchester.
But, memories aside, Liverpool-York warrants an option for first class in my opinion, in which the service provider can offer more than different seats, if they want to. Back in the 1970s it was novelty to me but all I got was a larger seat.

It doesn’t look like there will be a Liverpool-Newcastle service. Of the 6 ECML fast services between York & Newcastle, two services appear to be heading on to Manchester which would be the Birmingham trains. That leaves Liverpool-York, which is effectively a commuter service no different to Southeastern HS1.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. Only urban commuter type services around cities should not. Offering it on long distance services is a key part of attracting people to leave premium cars at home.

Despite the journey time this won't be used as a daily commuter service; the price will be prohibitive. It is more like the Euston-Birmingham Avanti services than much else, and while I'm not getting into door position prejudice, InterCity interiors are right for these.

I would however prefer First Class to be sold at a 150% multiplier and not come with freebies other than possibly very cheap to deliver ones like free tea, coffee and water.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2021 ==

It doesn’t look like there will be a Liverpool-Newcastle service. Of the 6 ECML fast services between York & Newcastle, two services appear to be heading on to Manchester which would be the Birmingham trains. That leaves Liverpool-York, which is effectively a commuter service no different to Southeastern HS1.

It is very different to HS1 in terms of how it will be used.

 

[matacaster]

First class should be provided as long as there is sufficient second class provision. Eg now that there are lots more doubled-up 185's, first class is a sensible offering, but was wrong when people couldn't get on a single set.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes. Only urban commuter type services around cities should not. Offering it on long distance services is a key part of attracting people to leave premium cars at home.

Despite the journey time this won't be used as a daily commuter service; the price will be prohibitive. It is more like the Euston-Birmingham Avanti services than much else, and while I'm not getting into door position prejudice, InterCity interiors are right for these.

I would however prefer First Class to be sold at a 150% multiplier and not come with freebies other than possibly very cheap to deliver ones like free tea, coffee and water.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2021 ==



It is very different to HS1 in terms of how it will be used.

Door position prejudice is something you invented to defend 350s and the like from criticism... It is a valid point that Intercity stock require carriages with saloons and vestibules with end doors, and first class, to run a decent long distance service.

 

[Purple Orange]

Yes. Only urban commuter type services around cities should not. Offering it on long distance services is a key part of attracting people to leave premium cars at home.

Despite the journey time this won't be used as a daily commuter service; the price will be prohibitive. It is more like the Euston-Birmingham Avanti services than much else, and while I'm not getting into door position prejudice, InterCity interiors are right for these.

I would however prefer First Class to be sold at a 150% multiplier and not come with freebies other than possibly very cheap to deliver ones like free tea, coffee and water.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2021 ==



It is very different to HS1 in terms of how it will be used.

I don’t see how a Liverpool-York NPR service that is not intended for end-to-end journeys fits the requirement of being an Intercity service, or at least a service similar to HS2. The whole purpose of NPR is to enable faster commuting to Manchester & Leeds and I see no reason why the price should be prohibitive.

 

[daodao]

The whole purpose of NPR is to enable faster commuting to Manchester & Leeds and I see no reason why the price should be prohibitive.

Really? NPR's aim is supposed to be speeding up inter-city journeys across the north of England, not long distance commuting, which should actively be discouraged. [I am not referring to shorter distance journeys such as Warrington to Manchester, which might be undertaken via NPR if it ever gets built.]

 

[Purple Orange]

Really? NPR's aim is supposed to be speeding up inter-city journeys across the north of England, not long distance commuting, which should actively be discouraged. [I am not referring to shorter distance journeys such as Warrington to Manchester, which might be undertaken via NPR if it ever gets built.]

Of course it is. It’s never been about Liverpool to Leeds for instance. It’s about Leeds to Manchester first and foremost, Liverpool to Manchester secondary and Liverpool to Leeds being a nice to have.

If anyone thought it was about speeding up long distance services, then they have completely misunderstood the concept. That is a byproduct.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yes but only a carriage should be used, maybe 1.5 carriages. Amenities should be 2+1 seating, more legroom and hot drinks & light snacks.

 

[Purple Orange]

Yes but only a carriage should be used, maybe 1.5 carriages. Amenities should be 2+1 seating, more legroom and hot drinks & light snacks.

On a Liverpool, Warrington, MAN, Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Leeds, York service?

 

[LOL The Irony]

On a Liverpool, Warrington, MAN, Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Leeds, York service?

What's the problem? @Bletchleyite suggest something similar and I agree with him. Slapping an antimacassar that says 'First Class' on some standard class seats and doing nothing else doesn't make it first class. The current Liverpool to York service has exactly the same offering in first class.

 

[Purple Orange]

What's the problem? @Bletchleyite suggest something similar and I agree with him. Slapping an antimacassar that says 'First Class' on some standard class seats and doing nothing else doesn't make it first class. The current Liverpool to York service has exactly the same offering in first class.

It seems overkill for a service that will primarily be about journeys under 40 minutes on the whole.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It seems overkill for a service that will primarily be about journeys under 40 minutes on the whole.

It's a basic first class service, again, what is the problem with it? It's no more than what TPE currently offer.

 

[Purple Orange]

It's a basic first class service, again, what is the problem with it? It's no more than what TPE currently offer.

It’s not a long distance service to begin with, but more importantly for the type of journeys it will facilitate, I can’t see the market existing for 1st class. So why waste the space? By all means have 1st on the Birmingham-Manchester-Newcastle services, as there will be a decent market for that.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Liverpool, Warrington, MAN, Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Leeds, York service

not a long distance service

Eh? I'm sorry, what?

 

[Purple Orange]

Eh? I'm sorry, what?

It’s 100 miles end-to-end, but the Liverpool-York flow is a very small proportion of the whole, as is Liverpool-Leeds. It’s a service that stitches together several shorter distance journeys and if those journeys were to have their own dedicated service, nobody would be saying it’s an intercity service that requires 1st class.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It’s 100 miles end-to-end, but the Liverpool-York flow is a very small proportion of the whole, as is Liverpool-Leeds. It’s a service that stitches together several shorter distance journeys and if those journeys were to have their own dedicated service, nobody would be saying it’s an intercity service that requires 1st class.

But it is supposed to go onto Hull and Newcastle.

 

[AM9]

Eh? I'm sorry, what?

I don't know why distance is quoted so much as a deciding factor for either 1st class or end doors. It time that passengers will spend on the train that matters. That is one of the reasons why these facilities are becoming more scarce, and with HS rail, few journeys undertaken will be more than 2hrs and the bulk of them will be under one hour. Just look at HS1, London to Ashford takes about 40 mins with.two intermediate stops. That's similar to a commuter train to MK or Bedford or a stopper to Reading. Rolling stock design on high density corridors where a mixture of journeys are made is always going to be a compromise. Passengers travelling for 40-80 minutes are more in need of a seat than a specific type of accommodation, e.g. end door saloons or 2+1 1st class. The fact that the train moves twice as fast and covers to he distance in half the current time is irrelevant.

 

[daodao]

It’s about Leeds to Manchester first and foremost

I agree. That is an inter-city journey of 40 miles, not really commuting distance. However, while this is the core segment, other travellers will be making longer journeys, to York and beyond, and Hull. It is the one route within the north of England where some first class provision is probably warranted.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I don't know why distance is quoted so much as a deciding factor for either 1st class or end doors. It time that passengers will spend on the train that matters.

First class is offered on TGV services from Paris to CDG Airport. I can get a first class ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria. If punters are willing to pay, why not?

That is one of the reasons why these facilities are becoming more scarce, and with HS rail, few journeys undertaken will be more than 2hrs and the bulk of them will be under one hour.

The bonnie land of Scotland, will be served by HS2 services.

Just look at HS1, London to Ashford takes about 40 mins with.two intermediate stops. That's similar to a commuter train to MK or Bedford or a stopper to Reading. Rolling stock design on high density corridors where a mixture of journeys are made is always going to be a compromise. Passengers travelling for 40-80 minutes are more in need of a seat than a specific type of accommodation, e.g. end door saloons or 2+1 1st class.

The domestic HS1 services are a bad comparison as they aren't Intercity services, more high speed commuter services. NPR service will be expect to go from Liverpool to Newcastle.

 

[tomuk]

No first class should only be available on 'InterCity' services on the WCML, ECML and GWML. It should be withdrawn on all other routes. To attract people from 'premium cars?' the longer 'express' services should have an improved accommodation throughout like the Chiltern Clubman 168s.

 

[Purple Orange]

But it is supposed to go onto Hull and Newcastle.

It’s not. The Birmingham-Manchester HS2 services will, but the Liverpool NPR services are intended to go as far as York.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2021 ==

I agree. That is an inter-city journey of 40 miles, not really commuting distance. However, while this is the core segment, other travellers will be making longer journeys, to York and beyond, and Hull. It is the one route within the north of England where some first class provision is probably warranted.

40 miles is not a great distance at all, but the key is journey times. 33 minutes is commutable. Also, and I can’t stress this enough, but the services in question are purely Liverpool-York. The Birmingham-Newcastle via Manchester would warrant a 1st class section.

 

[AM9]

First class is offered on TGV services from Paris to CDG Airport. I can get a first class ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria. If punters are willing to pay, why not?

The first class tickets from Paccadilly to the airport are for travelling on services that have taken 2 maybe 3 hours from their origins, (e.g. Barrow, Redcar etc.) If those trains started at Piccadilly for their 20 minutes to the airport there wouldn't be any 1st class offer.

The bonnie land of Scotland, will be served by HS2 services.

That is off-topic, this thread is about NPR services. HS2 services are different, especially when they are taking over three hours to get to NPR lines.

The domestic HS1 services are a bad comparison as they aren't Intercity services, more high speed commuter services. NPR service will be expect to go from Liverpool to Newcastle.

They are journeys that take only 40 minutes, - there is little justification for wasting limited capacity with 1st class for such a short journey, hence the reason why there is no provision.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The first class tickets from Paccadilly to the airport are for travelling on services that have taken 2 maybe 3 hours from their origins

They could also easily not sell first class tickets from Piccadilly to Victoria (or the Airport, of which MAN wasn't mentioned but whatever), but they do.

If those trains started at Piccadilly for their 20 minutes to the airport there wouldn't be any 1st class offer.

I wouldn't be so sure. See Heathrow Express.

That is off-topic, this thread is about NPR services. HS2 services are different, especially when they are taking over three hours to get to NPR lines.

Nothing about this statement makes any sense. You made a generalised statement about HSR and I made a response to it. Also what is this 3 hours to NPR stuff?

 

[AM9]

I wouldn't be so sure. See Heathrow Express.

Heathrow is a totally different airport with a far greater 1st class potential, hence the Airport running the express service.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They are journeys that take only 40 minutes, - there is little justification for wasting limited capacity with 1st class for such a short journey, hence the reason why there is no provision.

You already said that and I said nothing against them doing that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No first class should only be available on 'InterCity' services on the WCML, ECML and GWML. It should be withdrawn on all other routes. To attract people from 'premium cars?' the longer 'express' services should have an improved accommodation throughout like the Chiltern Clubman 168s.

Apart from the awful window alignment in the mk5s and my personal dislike of Fainsa's finest, it is hard to say TPE doesn't have the best Standard Class accommodation in the country. I would hope any new NPR stock would continue that.

As for 1st, if people will pay for it, why not?

End doors have more to do with loading (I doubt anyone would see them as a problem on rural branch lines) so I think maybe not the best plan but not a massive problem either if standardising with HS2 is more useful.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think maybe not the best plan but not a massive problem either if standardising with HS2 is more useful.

If it is to have a homogenous fleet with HS2, it'll have to have the same amenities as HS2, so therefore, offer first class accommodation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it is to have a homogenous fleet with HS2, it'll have to have the same amenities as HS2, so therefore, offer first class accommodation.

For clarity I made that point about end doors, not about First Class which I definitely think should be provided.

If not going the same as HS2, with regard to door positions, I am sure Stadler could do something very suitable with the Giruno platform, perhaps some coaches with two doors and some with one with different layouts taking into account the different use cases. I have joked about the best formation for busy services from Euston being a couple of 350/2s then a /1 at the front because people won't walk along, but I think there is actually something in that sort of approach, a bit like the Sheffield trams which have accessible, standee end sections for quick and easy access and short trips, but an effectively end doored, all seater middle section for longer trips.