Should the railway’s no smoking/vaping policy be better enforced?

[amahy]

Has anybody here ever seen the railway’s no smoking/vaping policy ever enforced? Over the years, I have witnessed many people vaping in train stations, and in train toilets (you can tell by the smell when you use the toilet after them - it’s vile!), but nothing ever seems to get done about it. I have seen both platform staff and BTP officers outright ignoring people vaping in train stations, including on platforms.

I find this disgusting, when train operators are so obsessed with enforcing penalty fares that are sometimes just honest mistakes, but don’t do anything about people smoking/vaping, which I would argue is much worse than fare evasion. Not only is it a fire risk, it is downright unpleasant for passengers who have to breathe in other peoples smoke fumes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I find music out loud more annoying, but I would agree that aside from Merseyrail the Byelaws concerning behaviour are indeed inadequately enforced.

 

[Western 52]

I agree that better enforcement is needed, but I guess there may be issues in many locations, for example who enforces at an unstaffed station?

I have seen some on train enforcement recently.

 

[Spaceflower]

With vaping, it's quite hard to do sometimes. Now that has become one of my great annoyances. I'll put up with noise but vaping drugs in a confined space............well, you decide

 

[williamn]

Its something I've noticed more and more. People thinking they can get away with vaping indoors - at gigs especially but also in shops, pubs and restaurants.

 

[Spaceflower]

Its something I've noticed more and more. People thinking they can get away with vaping indoors - at gigs especially but also in shops, pubs and restaurants.

The irony is that when I smoked, I tried e cigs for a bit (way back before vaping took off) and used to do it myself, not because I 'thought I could get away with it' but because it just didn't occur to me that I was actually 'smoking'.

Similarly, go back a couple of decades before that and half the train would've been puffing away, staining the interior yellow, including the guard too probably.

Societal norms do change over time. If you want a genuine 1980's experience, take an express train ride out of Tunis.

It's the same where I live. Open my flat door and 'whallop', especially when it's raining.

 

[Moonshot]

As staff myself, trying to enforce the no smoking policy both on trains and in stations isn't as easy as you might think. Very easy for confrontational situations to arise

 

[WirralLine]

Its something I've noticed more and more. People thinking they can get away with vaping indoors - at gigs especially but also in shops, pubs and restaurants.

In fairness, the pubs I usually go to allow vaping inside. Vaping isn't covered by the smoking laws and is down to the individual pub.

I'm a guard, I do enforce no smoking or vaping on my train and indeed I have thrown people off for then smoking again after I've already told them once - but if I see somebody doing it on a platform I'm not getting involved. I often see people jump off my train at a station for a few seconds, take a few puffs of of a cigarette or a vape, then when I blow the whistle they jump back on. At least they're not doing it in the confined saloon of my train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fairness, the pubs I usually go to allow vaping inside. Vaping isn't covered by the smoking laws and is down to the individual pub.

I'm a guard, I do enforce no smoking or vaping on my train and indeed I have thrown people off for then smoking again after I've already told them once - but if I see somebody doing it on a platform I'm not getting involved. I often see people jump off my train at a station for a few seconds, take a few puffs of of a cigarette or a vape, then when I blow the whistle they jump back on. At least they're not doing it in the confined saloon of my train.

If people do it at the far end of an empty outdoor platform it bothers me a lot less, to be fair.

I think it's one where there isn't enough signage. There used to be a "no smoking" sign on every window! It's indeed obvious that smoking isn't allowed now, but plenty of indoor places permit vaping as you say.

As staff myself, trying to enforce the no smoking policy both on trains and in stations isn't as easy as you might think. Very easy for confrontational situations to arise

If the likes of drivers and guards don't feel safe confronting the issue, perhaps a national scheme similar to Merseyrail's approach of specific Byelaw enforcement officers is needed. These would be recruited as SIA approved security staff whose specific job role is to confront those breaking the Byelaws (be they smoking, vaping, carrying a bicycle on a train where not permitted, carrying an e-scooter on any train, feet on seats, electronic devices out loud, luggage in an unnecessarily dangerous/obstructive place or on the seats on a busy train and not moved on request, whatever) and write them up for prosecution, particularly if they start doing the thing again* having been told not to do so.

* I'm inclined to think rather than absolute zero tolerance that the first step should be a letter outlining the unacceptable behaviour with no actual sanction but just a warning, but if a second offence is detected by the same person of the same type within a given period, say 12 months, prosecution is then proceeded with**. The letter should be both sent to them by post and given to them on the spot.

** I'm inclined to think (as I believe do Merseyrail) that a base Penalty Fare with no fare component should be able to be charged for this sort of misdemeanour, but legally that's not possible at present so prosecution (or settlements) is the only option as things stand.

 

[Deepgreen]

On trains and in buildings it is essential. On open platforms I see vaping extremely commonly and it is almost never enforced. I have told a few people myself, who just looked confused. The signs and announcements are clear so I suspect offenders feign ignorance. The vaping itself outdoors is far less annoying to me than smoking, but failing to enforce it probably leads to more disobeyance of many rules. Staff are presumably either too busy or too worried to do it properly. I would like to see more of the 'security guards' at busier stations doing the job rather than some of the other nonsense they pass their time with.

 

[amahy]

On open platforms, it’s not too bad, but I see vaping at Manchester Victoria basically every day, and those platforms are far from wide open.

 

[Spaceflower]

If people do it at the far end of an empty outdoor platform it bothers me a lot less, to be fair.

I think it's one where there isn't enough signage. There used to be a "no smoking" sign on every window! It's indeed obvious that smoking isn't allowed now, but plenty of indoor places permit vaping as you say.



If the likes of drivers and guards don't feel safe confronting the issue, perhaps a national scheme similar to Merseyrail's approach of specific Byelaw enforcement officers is needed. These would be recruited as SIA approved security staff whose specific job role is to confront those breaking the Byelaws (be they smoking, vaping, carrying a bicycle on a train where not permitted, carrying an e-scooter on any train, feet on seats, electronic devices out loud, luggage in an unnecessarily dangerous/obstructive place or on the seats on a busy train and not moved on request, whatever) and write them up for prosecution, particularly if they start doing the thing again* having been told not to do so.

* I'm inclined to think rather than absolute zero tolerance that the first step should be a letter outlining the unacceptable behaviour with no actual sanction but just a warning, but if a second offence is detected by the same person of the same type within a given period, say 12 months, prosecution is then proceeded with**. The letter should be both sent to them by post and given to them on the spot.

** I'm inclined to think (as I believe do Merseyrail) that a base Penalty Fare with no fare component should be able to be charged for this sort of misdemeanour, but legally that's not possible at present so prosecution (or settlements) is the only option as things stand.

The reason there used to be a no smoking sign on every window was that prior to their introduction everybody did it and therefore the masses literally needed informing and reminding.

They will be needed less today as it is a socially accepted norm not to smoke in enclosed public spaces.

I can remember being 'told off' for walking out onto Darlo's southern end for a fag. I was totally oblivious to the fact it wasn't permitted!

Now it's the norm, it seems obvious but new rules will catch people unaware, especially if they're infrequent travellers and used to different social settings (linking back to the noise thread).

I suppose you could also link this to many hundreds of threads about complicated fares. Even some guards fail to grasp some of the ticketing complexities so how the hell is the infrequent traveller?

It does seem like a jungle sometimes.

(sorry I'm just thinking out loud)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They will be needed less today as it is a socially accepted norm not to smoke in enclosed public spaces.

It's not, however, a socially accepted norm not to vape in enclosed public spaces. Plenty of such spaces allow it. It might help if there was legislation on it, though, as that would give it a publicity kick.

See also playing music out loud on phones. It needs to be clearly stated that it isn't acceptable (so the "don't make me tap the sign" approach works). And similarly the rules about what you do if the reservations aren't showing.

 

[Thirteen]

The Tobacco and Vapes Bill will allow places to enforce places which are smoke free, vape free and that's important because it's currently voluntary but also if someone is caught vaping on public transport, you could fine them heavily.

 

[rocrat]

People regularly smoke cannabis on platforms. You'd think this to be low-hanging fruit for BTP.



I often discuss this in vain at Preston and Stevenage... it isn't safe to be on platforms whilst high (in the same way that it isn't safe to be blackout drunk!).



I've been on several Northern services which have been hotboxed...

 

[Spaceflower]

It's not, however, a socially accepted norm not to vape in enclosed public spaces. Plenty of such spaces allow it. It might help if there was legislation on it, though, as that would give it a publicity kick.

See also playing music out loud on phones. It needs to be clearly stated that it isn't acceptable (so the "don't make me tap the sign" approach works). And similarly the rules about what you do if the reservations aren't showing.

Yeah. That kinda was my point. Clear rules take up bandwith and will they be consistent across all TOC's/PT operators.

I can remember cracking open a can the first time that I tried a Megabus for a relaxing night time journey home and I thought the Polish driver was going to do me in!!! Never an issue on the train

 

[amahy]

It's not, however, a socially accepted norm not to vape in enclosed public spaces. Plenty of such spaces allow it. It might help if there was legislation on it, though, as that would give it a publicity kick.

See also playing music out loud on phones. It needs to be clearly stated that it isn't acceptable (so the "don't make me tap the sign" approach works). And similarly the rules about what you do if the reservations aren't showing.

I would (perhaps controversially) add being excessively roudy to this list. Nothing is more annoying than tons of hooligans getting on the train that are purely using public transport as a vehicle to get drunk (pun partially intended). Noise generally can be an issue, too.

 

[Spaceflower]

I would (perhaps controversially) add being excessively roudy to this list. Nothing is more annoying than tons of hooligans getting on the train that are purely using public transport as a vehicle to get drunk (pun partially intended). Noise generally can be an issue, too.

I've been on a few rowdy trains in my time. Ranging from Fri/Sat nighters to events but the worst of the worst.....football trains. There is nothing worse than being stuck on a two car pacer being slowed behind a Metro when it is standing room only with football fans

EDIT: when your up the eyes with mud and with a bike!

(please God, save that metro car from failing)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I see vaping at Manchester Victoria basically every day, and those platforms are far from wide open.

Given the permanent cloud of blue diesel smoke that hangs in the air at Manchester Victoria, someone vaping would be the least of my worries. I'd rather take my chances with vape smoke than whatever's just been belched out of the exhaust of a 150.

As for enforcement, vaping doesn't quite fit into the prohibition in the Byelaws which refer to a "lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item".

I'm similarly sceptical about feet on seats, the byelaw states you must not "molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway". Of course that doesn't seem to stop the Scouse Stasi at Merseyrail from trying it on.

 

[PedroHav]

As mentioned earlier enforcement has it's problems. What can you do? It's the same with every aspect of traveling from feet on seats, loud music/videos, crashing through barriers and ticket avoidance. People realise than can get away with it and nobody is going to do anything about it.
It's a very sad state of affairs !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As mentioned earlier enforcement has it's problems. What can you do?

As I mentioned, Merseyrail have found a solution - specific staff recruited for the purpose of confronting such individuals and writing them up for prosecutions. Bouncers, if you will.

Other European railways have similar.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The staff at Cathays station hang around the station entrance, or worse - in the doorways of the adjacent Cardiff University building - vaping, all the time. It really doesn't look great.

 

[amahy]

As I mentioned, Merseyrail have found a solution - specific staff recruited for the purpose of confronting such individuals and writing them up for prosecutions. Bouncers, if you will.

Other European railways have similar.

Isn’t this supposed to be the role of travel safe officers/the BTP?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t this supposed to be the role of travel safe officers

These are another form of this sort of thing, though I think the Merseyrail Byelaw Squad approach is more effective than being nicey-nicey over it.

/the BTP?

Not enough of them about, and security guards are cheaper than police officers.