Signalling Control Tables

[Raheel Anwar]

Hi all. I was wondering if anyone knew of a source of electronic control tables. I'm working on a project that needs information from control tables and NRG can only provide scanned paper copies which means we will have to take all the information off ourselves. Even if I can't get a national set id be happy to get my hands on some electronic files where we can take the data and model with.

Cheers guys.

 

[JN114]

Hi all. I was wondering if anyone knew of a source of electronic control tables. I'm working on a project that needs information from control tables and NRG can only provide scanned paper copies which means we will have to take all the information off ourselves. Even if I can't get a national set id be happy to get my hands on some electronic files where we can take the data and model with.

Cheers guys.

NRG are the ones that hold the data - the only other copies are likely to be hard copies at the individual locations concerned. Control Tables are - as I’m sure you’re aware - deemed very sensitive by NR. As such distribution is kept very limited, even within the industry it can be very difficult to get hold of them. I dread to think how much data we’re talking for a national set - hundreds of GB easily.

Happy to be proven wrong; but a public, enthusiast-oriented forum is unlikely to have what you’re after if the NRG can’t supply it.

 

[Poggs]

If you mean signalling control tables (as opposed to train describer stepping control tables), then electronic copies are likely to be held by the signalling design company, and NRG provided with printed copies as per signalling contracts.

I was asked to look at a project several years ago to digitise signalling control table data. I'm unsure if the project went ahead or not, but if it did, then some areas of the country may have the data available in a structured, electronic format.

Message me directly if you like - I may be able to help you further if I know the geographical extent of the data you're looking for.

 

[Raheel Anwar]

Guys thanks for your responses. I'm not expecting someone on the forum to provide me the data, just some guidance to where I may be able to get the data from. I will be going via the proper channels to get the data.

Poggs yes I am after signalling control tables. I am approaching the signalling design companies to see if we can get the electronic files. I am after a national set of electronic data. Yes c70k control tables worth of data.

 

[Tim M]

Poggs yes I am after signalling control tables. I am approaching the signalling design companies to see if we can get the electronic files. I am after a national set of electronic data. Yes c70k control tables worth of data.

It all depends what you intend to use the Control Tables for, can you provide more details. Don’t forget each Control Table is bespoke for each Signal, Route, Point No. etc, using a generic standard format.

First a word on process. NR Contract with a number of suppliers, some may just do design, some may even only do the design up to the Control Table with others doing the detailed Interlocking design etc. At the end of the Contract the supplier will hand over the Control Tables as ‘finals’ to NR with NRG having overall responsibility for long term safe keeping. From time to time NRG will release the design to the same or another supplier for reference or for modification as part of ongoing works, for the purposes of safety only one organisation can be the ‘design authority’ at any one time.

Looking at the Control Tables themselves, these were traditionally hand drawn, with transfer to Computer Aided Design (CAD) about 30/35 years ago. Unless things have changed since I retired four years ago most Control Tables continue to be produced on Microstation CAD, but these are essentially just a drawing with no extract facilities.

One of my colleagues at Chippenham developed a method that required the track plan to be redrawn in a schematic format that had extract facilities from which Control Tables and then SSI/Westlock data could be automatically generated. How extensively this is used I don’t know.

I am still baffled why CAD is still used for a tabular document, I successfully used Word for Oslo T-Banen from about 1995,and I have seen Excel used elsewhere.

Conclusion: I think you the best you will get will be scanned files, extractable data format probably doesn’t exist (more than happy if anyone can confirm otherwise).

 

[Highlandspring]

^ this. NRG would supply you with .tif or .pdf scanned image files and some of the scans may be of pretty poor quality. Assuming your project has some contractual interface with Network Rail (otherwise why would you want to use their documentation?) then your contract with them would surely cover access to relevant records. You should also be aware that in the current climate Control Tables are considered to be ‘security sensitive’ documents.

 

[edwin_m]

For computer-based schemes the SSI or other interlocking data is effectively an electronic representation of the control tables and given that it's designed to be interpreted by a computer it should be relatively easy to do so compared with the control tables themselves. I've not tried but I imagine the data is even harder to obtain, though I guess it must be embedded in the various simulations that can be bought.

For schemes that predated SSI it's highly unlikely that any CAD system would have been used so the best you'll get is a scan of something that was drawn up by hand.

 

[Tim M]

For schemes that predated SSI it's highly unlikely that any CAD system would have been used so the best you'll get is a scan of something that was drawn up by hand.

At GEC-General Signal we used CAD from about 1980, mostly for location case and trackside cable design on BR Contracts. At about the same time we had a couple of large jobs in Brazil and would have used CAD for all design work including Control Tables. As with much of the use of CAD for signalling then, and up to recently or even ongoing, CAD would be better called Computer Aided Tracing.

 

[edwin_m]

At GEC-General Signal we used CAD from about 1980, mostly for location case and trackside cable design on BR Contracts. At about the same time we had a couple of large jobs in Brazil and would have used CAD for all design work including Control Tables. As with much of the use of CAD for signalling then, and up to recently or even ongoing, CAD would be better called Computer Aided Tracing.

And are you still able to read and edit the CAD files from that era?

 

[Tim M]

And are you still able to read and edit the CAD files from that era?

I wouldn’t know as I left GEC in 1986, but I very much doubt the tapes were kept for long after the drawings were handed over to the customer on dyline printed paper/plastic film. They would have needed to make a serious investment in the same very expensive CAD system that predated the PC by a few years.

 

[Raheel Anwar]

^ this. NRG would supply you with .tif or .pdf scanned image files and some of the scans may be of pretty poor quality. Assuming your project has some contractual interface with Network Rail (otherwise why would you want to use their documentation?) then your contract with them would surely cover access to relevant records. You should also be aware that in the current climate Control Tables are considered to be ‘security sensitive’ documents.

As I've stated previously I'm only looking fora steer in the right direction, apart from the standard NRG route which I'm fully aware of and have been dealing with for a while now. I am just totally baffled that in this day and age electronic documents are being being created without a extractable information. We are working on a NR project and after exhausting all routes I could find, including quizzing NRG I turned to the wider area of expertise, i.e. Rail Forums. Thanks for all the guidance, I'm sure I'll be back with more queries.

 

[Tim M]

Raheel. You have to remember that advancements in signalling sometimes take years to develop and come to market. This includes productivity tools that are not always considered part of the product. I suspect what you are after is a translation tool that will produce Computer Based Interlocking data direct from the Control Tables, this has been developed, see my earlier post. Even then you have to consider that the savings in relation to the total cost of a new signalling scheme would be small as the data will still need testing and validation against the Control Tables. Remember also that by and large an automated process will only be used once with no further changes to data for many years or even decades.

Better use of template tools such as used for Trainguard WESTRACE will tend to reduce the need for direct generation of data from the Control Tables. I am vaguely aware that other initiatives on productivity tools have been looked at, being retired I have no idea if these came to anything.

Without understanding what you want to use extractable data from Control Tables, I am at a loss be able to provide further advice. BTW I have extracted data from CAD files for estimating purposes and understand the issues.

 

[MarkyT]

When I first started in the BR WR signalling design office at Reading in the early 1980s, manual draughting in ink was still the norm for everything. There were some CAD workstations introduced shortly after, but it took years for them to be used extensively. Initially, non signalling specialist 'CAD tracers' were employed to transcribe designs sketched manually on paper, but younger engineers like myself adapted quickly to use the CAD machines directly themselves. Different regions, manufacturers etc all had slightly different formats and layouts for control tables which also changed over the years along with the technology. Things became more standardised by the early 90s with introduction of the 'CP9' table format and SSI.