Signalling to help the schedules?

[setdown]

I’m currently sat at Basingstoke, feeling sorry for myself because my intended train (1817, 1W35 to Weymouth) has failed to stop. Sped right through. Most people taking it in good spirits though, especially the guard who was meant to be on it.

That got me thinking, do signals take a train’s departure time into account? Obviously the signal at Basingstoke was green, as the train carried on at full speed. If there was a red until departure time, maybe the stop might have happened as intended.

Does that happen anywhere already? Seems like it could be a helpful tool for the driver.

 

[43066]

I’m currently sat at Basingstoke, feeling sorry for myself because my intended train (1817, 1W35 to Weymouth) has failed to stop. Sped right through. Most people taking it in good spirits though, especially the guard who was meant to be on it.

That got me thinking, do signals take a train’s departure time into account? Obviously the signal at Basingstoke was green, as the train carried on at full speed. If there was a red until departure time, maybe the stop might have happened as intended.

Does that happen anywhere already? Seems like it could be a helpful tool for the driver.

As a rule, no. The signalling won’t have anything to do with the train’s departure time, and it isn’t used as an aide memoire for drivers. Certainly at a through station you would generally encounter green signals and it’s on the driver to remember to stop. We prefer not to encounter red signals except where necessary, as each is a potential SPAD.

Obviously there are exceptions such as one on my patch at Derby where the starting signal will generally be red on approach, but this is due to the way signalling works at that location, rather than because of the timetable per se. Similarly at terminal stations the signal will generally only clear fairly shortly before departure due to the need to path other trains in and out of the station.

The incident you appear to have witnessed is known as a fail to call, and they do happen from time to time due to varying stopping patterns and drivers adopting the wrong mental model for the journey they’re doing (to use NTS speak). While “the driver forgot to stop” might sound light hearted on one level, it’s no laughing matter, and will generally involve the driver being relieved, med screened and put onto a performance improvement plan.

EDIT: and looking at RTT your intended train appears to have continued to Southampton where it was diagrammed to split, with the leading portion booked to continue to Poole and now showing as cancelled. It’s highly likely that the driver who had the incident would have been taken off at Southampton, hence the cancellation.

 

[Benjwri]

It’s highly likely that the driver who had the incident would have been taken off at Southampton, hence the cancellation.

Although being a guard down because one was left behind could also be the cause…

 

[ComUtoR]

Was it a fail to call or was a not to stop issued ?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Was it a fail to call or was a not to stop issued ?

It seems the relief guard for that service was on the platform expecting to board as planned, so I suggest fail to call seems most likely.

 

[Gloster]

From the signalman’s point of view it is adding another item to the workload. They have now got to watch the clock and cross reference it with the departure time to see when to clear the signal. Not so difficult at a quiet box when all is running as it should, but at busy boxes or when things are fraught it would be an unnecessary distraction. At most large boxes the route can be set and then needs no more than half an eye kept on it while other matters are attended to.

 

[bahnause]

Fortunately, the statistics show that the number of missed stops is extremely low. Much smaller than one would expect based on the average human error rate. This shows the high professional training standard of the train drivers. Very unpleasant for passengers, however, and good material for the local media. However, it would not be a reason to release the train driver here in my company, unless he asks for it.

Depending on the safety systems used, signaling a stop would cost a lot of time, as the train would have to be driven to the platform more slowly.

 

[edwin_m]

Some larger stations are equipped with Train Ready to Start buttons, operated by platform staff when everything is ready. Normally the signal won't be cleared until this happens, so if it isn't ready the signaller is able to keep other trains moving on conflicting routes.

 

[John Webb]

When watching the (semaphore) demonstration at the preserved St Albans South box, the public often ask 'Why do you clear all the signals for an approaching train?' and we have to explain that if we kept the signal at the end of the platform at 'danger' the train would have to approach slowly, would be delayed and we would be told off. But by clearing all the signals, we allow the driver a clear run in so they can keep to time. And if they forgot to stop they got the "Form 1", not the signaller!

 

[43066]

When watching the (semaphore) demonstration at the preserved St Albans South box, the public often ask 'Why do you clear all the signals for an approaching train?' and we have to explain that if we kept the signal at the end of the platform at 'danger' the train would have to approach slowly, would be delayed and we would be told off. But by clearing all the signals, we allow the driver a clear run in so they can keep to time. And if they forgot to stop they got the "Form 1", not the signaller!

One of your semaphore signals in the signal box garden appears, for a few seconds at least, to show a danger aspect to the down fast MML. It takes some getting used to! Thankfully I’ve spadded it so many times that it no longer registers.

 

[John Webb]

One of your semaphore signals in the signal box garden appears, for a few seconds at least, to show a danger aspect to the down fast MML. It takes some getting used to! Thankfully I’ve spadded it so many times that it no longer registers.

A very interesting comment! We put our two lots of Colour Light Signals well away from the track for obvious reasons, and the semaphores some way from the boundary precisely to minimise any confusion!

 

[43066]

A very interesting comment! We put our two lots of Colour Light Signals well away from the track for obvious reasons, and the semaphores some way from the boundary precisely to minimise any confusion!

Rest assured it’s very fleeting, and isn’t likely to cause confusion.

 

[setdown]

We prefer not to encounter red signals except where necessary, as each is a potential SPAD.

I suppose that’s the most important thing, I didn’t think of that. Interesting insight, thanks!

Was it a fail to call or was a not to stop issued ?

The supervisor in the office on P2 called control, and they confirmed the train was definitely meant to stop. The supervisor checked in case there was some disruption they weren’t aware of.

 

[philosopher]

Someone I used to work with said that at the country end of Stratford Station there is a sign saying ‘Romford?’ which he said was to get train drivers to remember whether they had to stop next at Romford Station. I think the sign was there because the vast majority of trains do not stop at Romford so there was greater chance of the driver not calling at the station if the train was scheduled to stop there.

 

[The exile]

Someone I used to work with said that at the country end of Stratford Station there is a sign saying ‘Romford?’ which he said was to get train drivers to remember whether they had to stop next at Romford Station. I think the sign was there because the vast majority of trains do not stop at Romford so there was greater chance of the driver not calling at the station if the train was scheduled to stop there.

There was / is a similar one at Treforest asking drivers whether they were stopping at Treforest Estate - one of the rare Valleys stations where not everything stops (though I think they now do - or soon will).

 

[Falcon1200]

A signal could be held at danger to ensure a train stops at a particular station if that stop is outside the normal timetable; Even then, the Driver should have been made aware by a timetable alteration or, on the day, a Special Stop Order, and, as mentioned, it would put additional workload on the Signaller.

There was however one occasion I was involved in where a train had been pre-planned to make an additional stop, and moreover we were assured that the Driver was aware, only for the train to fly through the station at line speed.....

 

[The Planner]

A signal could be held at danger to ensure a train stops at a particular station if that stop is outside the normal timetable; Even then, the Driver should have been made aware by a timetable alteration or, on the day, a Special Stop Order, and, as mentioned, it would put additional workload on the Signaller.

There was however one occasion I was involved in where a train had been pre-planned to make an additional stop, and moreover we were assured that the Driver was aware, only for the train to fly through the station at line speed.....

Would also put in a sub threshold delay too, as you assume its runs to a stopping SRT. A red signal would slow it down further.

 

[MylesHSG]

As others have said a failure to stop is rare, and a SPAD is much more serious, both in terms of disciplinary action and safety.

I was on a failure to stop last year, LNW driver went right through Watford Junction and the next stop was Hemel! There were no more southbound trains, luckily for me I realised there was a bus heading back and dashed to get it, but there was a mini riot on the platform.

Not every station has a signal at the end of the platform, it would require a large amount of resignalling work as well.

 

[Belperpete]

At those places with Automatic Route Setting, I understand that ARS can be programmed so that it doesn't set particular routes until time of departure.