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Skipping stations - emergency stop used to make train stop

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CoBo Doh

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Reading a couple of other threads about delayed trains out of London missing stops made me think back to when we used to come home from school in Sheffield to Dronfield. This wasn't long after Dronfield re-opened so I'm guessing from my school years about late 1982 / early 1983.

The timetable wasn't clock-face and was bunched for commuters around 16:00 - 18:00 at irregular intervals (think something daft like 8 of the 11 Sheffield - Dronny trains in this evening peak). Most of the trains were two car DMUs doing Sheffield - Derby / Chesterfield stoppers.

There was a loco hauled train that came from the Hope Valley Line in the midst and that was often the Sheffield - Dronfield departure I'd catch.

On numerous times (50-75 in two years sixth form) it would decide to skip Dronfield if running late - also apparently used to skip Sheffield if really late and just go round the Dore curve, Sheffield passengers having to back track from Chesterfield and those of us wanting Dronfield from Sheffield would be crammed in a Derby DMU bog van 2 car when a six car express should have run.

Of course after this happened a few times us school kids (they were 30-40 of us wanting Dronfield as a stop) decided to work out the optimum point to pull the emergency cord (47 hauled was 20 seconds after leaving Bradway Tunnel) so the train stopped with some carriages in Dronfield station and being manual doors we could get out at our "scheduled" station that BR were trying to miss.

When the loco hauled train was replaced by 150s/156s this still went on and we had to be by the door the guard would exit from to check why we'd stopped, getting clips round the ears. But we'd worked out that the extra time and return fare from Chezzy (we'd get charged that by Chesterfield guards as they though 'my train didn't stop at Dronfield' was classic schoolies trying to blag a free ride back to Dronfield) was worth the threat of the penalty fare.

Q is - if a train were station skipping today - could you pull the cord at the right point if it got announced it wasn't stopping after you got on and get off or are you stuck inside?
 
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Gaelan

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Legality aside - my understanding is that on modern trains, the "emergency stop" button/lever/cord doesn't immediately stop the train; instead it triggers a buzzer in the cab that stops the train if not acknowledged by the driver within a certain time limit.
 

800Travel

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Legality aside - my understanding is that on modern trains, the "emergency stop" button/lever/cord doesn't immediately stop the train; instead it triggers a buzzer in the cab that stops the train if not acknowledged by the driver within a certain time limit.
Is there no override for this? I.e. driver acknowledges buzzer but fails to stop several times. Several stops skipped. Guard/TM wants the train stopped too. Kind of a gone rogue type situation. Could be seen as a safety risk I suppose. Of course highly unlikely, but seems risky having no way to override
 

MCR247

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Reading a couple of other threads about delayed trains out of London missing stops made me think back to when we used to come home from school in Sheffield to Dronfield. This wasn't long after Dronfield re-opened so I'm guessing from my school years about late 1982 / early 1983.

The timetable wasn't clock-face and was bunched for commuters around 16:00 - 18:00 at irregular intervals (think something daft like 8 of the 11 Sheffield - Dronny trains in this evening peak). Most of the trains were two car DMUs doing Sheffield - Derby / Chesterfield stoppers.

There was a loco hauled train that came from the Hope Valley Line in the midst and that was often the Sheffield - Dronfield departure I'd catch.

On numerous times (50-75 in two years sixth form) it would decide to skip Dronfield if running late - also apparently used to skip Sheffield if really late and just go round the Dore curve, Sheffield passengers having to back track from Chesterfield and those of us wanting Dronfield from Sheffield would be crammed in a Derby DMU bog van 2 car when a six car express should have run.

Of course after this happened a few times us school kids (they were 30-40 of us wanting Dronfield as a stop) decided to work out the optimum point to pull the emergency cord (47 hauled was 20 seconds after leaving Bradway Tunnel) so the train stopped with some carriages in Dronfield station and being manual doors we could get out at our "scheduled" station that BR were trying to miss.

When the loco hauled train was replaced by 150s/156s this still went on and we had to be by the door the guard would exit from to check why we'd stopped, getting clips round the ears. But we'd worked out that the extra time and return fare from Chezzy (we'd get charged that by Chesterfield guards as they though 'my train didn't stop at Dronfield' was classic schoolies trying to blag a free ride back to Dronfield) was worth the threat of the penalty fare.

Q is - if a train were station skipping today - could you pull the cord at the right point if it got announced it wasn't stopping after you got on and get off or are you stuck inside?

I imagine if this kind of thing happened today, and the train did stop in the right place to have a section platformed, I’m not sure the guard would release even the local door. Wouldn’t they most likely speak to the driver from a non-driving cab?

Is there no override for this? I.e. driver acknowledges buzzer but fails to stop several times. Several stops skipped. Guard/TM wants the train stopped too. Kind of a gone rogue type situation. Could be seen as a safety risk I suppose. Of course highly unlikely, but seems risky having no way to override
No more a risk than DOO trains in that sense though, no?
 
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MCR247

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Can be deleted as I’ve now been corrected :)
 
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LowLevel

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Is there no override for this? I.e. driver acknowledges buzzer but fails to stop several times. Several stops skipped. Guard/TM wants the train stopped too. Kind of a gone rogue type situation. Could be seen as a safety risk I suppose. Of course highly unlikely, but seems risky having no way to override
Yes, the guard can apply the emergency brake if need be and there are multiple ways for them to do so.
 
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Is there no override for this? I.e. driver acknowledges buzzer but fails to stop several times.
The more modern units do have overrides for this, meant for ensuring the driver can shift the train in an emergency (fire in tunnel, viaduct, various other situations where it would be dangerous to evacuate or stay)

Older units, generally known as legacy fleet, will stop when a passcom is pulled/pressed but as stated above, it’s highly unlikely the guard will release any doors (or driver for DOO).

there are multiple ways for them to do so
Far too many ways on some units! A class 195 has 4 all in close proximity to where your coffee cup might be, knees maybe or even reaching across to turn the cctv monitor on!
 

occone

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So can the passengers if theyre in the know!
We are all told these days to "go green" - and "going green" is just the ticket if you absolutely need to stop a train (and is also a ticket to another type of ticket if done without good cause)
 

Efini92

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Is there no override for this? I.e. driver acknowledges buzzer but fails to stop several times. Several stops skipped. Guard/TM wants the train stopped too. Kind of a gone rogue type situation. Could be seen as a safety risk I suppose. Of course highly unlikely, but seems risky having no way to override
There was an incident on the midland mainline in 2010 where this happened. Driver thought the alarms were anomaly's so kept overriding the pass comm.
What was actually happening was one of the middle cars on the 222 had derailed. The train carried on for a couple of miles at 100 before it was stopped.
 

norbitonflyer

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Yes, the guard can apply the emergency brake if need be and there are multiple ways for them to do so.
If I recall correctly, that was how the runaway Caledonian sleeper was stopped after it ran through Waverley a year or so back. (The loco had accidentally been isolated from the train brakes at Carstairs, and did not have enough brake force to stop the train on its own - the train manager was able to stop the train when he realised what was happening)
 
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CarrotPie

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There was an incident on the midland mainline in 2010 where this happened. Driver thought the alarms were anomaly's so kept overriding the pass comm.
What was actually happening was one of the middle cars on the 222 had derailed. The train carried on for a couple of miles at 100 before it was stopped.
The RSSB made a RED video on the matter, but only the trailer is public. Is there a report (RAIB perhaps) on this somewhere?

Edit: Found it!
 

The Puddock

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The RSSB made a RED video on the matter, but only the trailer is public. Is there a report (RAIB perhaps) on this somewhere?

Edit: Found it!
Here is a RAIB investigation report from 2006 into another incident (coincidentally also involving a class 222) where a driver repeatedly overrode the emergency brake application caused by an exterior door opening at speed. It goes into some detail about how the override system works. It’s not as polished as modern RAIB reports but still worth a look -

 

CarrotPie

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Here is a RAIB investigation report from 2006 into another incident (coincidentally also involving a class 222) where a driver repeatedly overrode the emergency brake application caused by an exterior door opening at speed. It goes into some detail about how the override system works. It’s not as polished as modern RAIB reports but still worth a look -

Saw that yesterday. That had more to with the alarm design rather than driver error (the driver didn't know if it was passcom or egress, as opposed to thinking it was spurious).
 
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