Sleeper Train to the Mainland on existing track

[ATS3]

PS: I am aware of NightStar's history.
Let's ignore politics for a second and pretend that the situation was favorable for cross channel travel:
A sleeper train would leave from towns/cities such as Manchester and Liverpool via the West Coast Mainline starting off near the end of service (so 23:00 lets say), then before reaching St Pancras they'd branch off at Primrose Hill and on the North London Line preceding to just after Camden Road (at around 2am) where they'd join the single tracked chord onto HS1 (with perhaps a pickup at Stratford Int) and onto the Channel Tunnel making use of the lack of services through at this time.

What drawbacks does this have? One I think could be a factor is the special ordering of specially designed trainstock that can deal with the different platform heights. Interested to hear suggestions. Could they even use HS2 when its open?

 

[FlyingPotato]

PS: I am aware of NightStar's history.
Let's ignore politics for a second and pretend that the situation was favorable for cross channel travel:
A sleeper train would leave from towns/cities such as Manchester and Liverpool via the West Coast Mainline starting off near the end of service (so 23:00 lets say), then before reaching St Pancras they'd branch off at Primrose Hill and on the North London Line preceding to just after Camden Road (at around 2am) where they'd join the single tracked chord onto HS1 (with perhaps a pickup at Stratford Int) and onto the Channel Tunnel making use of the lack of services through at this time.

What drawbacks does this have? One I think could be a factor is the special ordering of specially designed trainstock that can deal with the different platform heights. Interested to hear suggestions. Could they even use HS2 when its open?

I think HS1 shuts at night so would have to go on traditional track

Assuming that in this scenario there is demand and will, rolling stock would be easy to overcome as they did build a bunch of Nightstar carriages

 

[ATS3]

I think HS1 shuts at night

Why?

 

[FlyingPotato]

Why?

Maintenance reasons I believe and maybe the channel tunnel

 

[ATS3]

Maintenance reasons I believe and maybe the channel tunnel

Mitigated with off day running? So running Mon Thu Sun for example.

 

[signed]

SNCF has a strict no-night opening on LGVs

If you can fit in HS1 and chunnel before closure (which you may be able to do with something like a 2000 departure from MAN, not ideal I know), then you can use the classic line between Calais Fréthun and Paris via Boulogne and Amiens.

Going around Paris is going to be a pain since LGV Interconnexion would be of course shut by the time and I doubt the Grande Ceinture railway is going to be able to carry that.

After that it would be straight down the POLT (Paris Orléans Limoges Toulouse) for the southwest destinations and the other downlines to the southeast.

I would guesstimate a travel time of around 18h without French LGV

4-5h from MAN to the chunnel, 3h15 from Calais Fréthun to Paris (Exisiting TER timing)

and then 8h-9h from Paris to Toulouse, 10-12h from Paris to Nice (those are the sleeper timings)

 

[BlueLeanie]

PS: I am aware of NightStar's history.
Let's ignore politics for a second and pretend that the situation was favorable for cross channel travel:
A sleeper train would leave from towns/cities such as Manchester and Liverpool via the West Coast Mainline starting off near the end of service (so 23:00 lets say), then before reaching St Pancras they'd branch off at Primrose Hill and on the North London Line preceding to just after Camden Road (at around 2am) where they'd join the single tracked chord onto HS1 (with perhaps a pickup at Stratford Int) and onto the Channel Tunnel making use of the lack of services through at this time.

What drawbacks does this have? One I think could be a factor is the special ordering of specially designed trainstock that can deal with the different platform heights. Interested to hear suggestions. Could they even use HS2 when its open?

Or just hop on a Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz, Vueling, Iberia or others direct from Manchester or Liverpool at around 7pm, and be checking into your hotel by 23:00 rather than be hanging around the station from 10pm with the jakeys.

Have a lovely night in a hotel and leisurely breakfast, rather than turfed off a train at 10am with no opportunity to check-in until 4pm

Enjoy the full Saturday and Sunday in your destination, maybe even stay the Sunday evening and take a 07:00 flight home on the Monday morning. At home for 09:00 ready to start work.

 

[zwk500]

PS: I am aware of NightStar's history.
Let's ignore politics for a second and pretend that the situation was favorable for cross channel travel:
A sleeper train would leave from towns/cities such as Manchester and Liverpool via the West Coast Mainline starting off near the end of service (so 23:00 lets say), then before reaching St Pancras they'd branch off at Primrose Hill

To get to St Pancras at all, they'd have to branch off at Primrose hill but that's not really the point I know.

and on the North London Line preceding to just after Camden Road (at around 2am) where they'd join the single tracked chord onto HS1 (with perhaps a pickup at Stratford Int) and onto the Channel Tunnel making use of the lack of services through at this time.

AIUI the Channel Tunnel maintains one line overnight for shuttles which you could path it into

I think HS1 shuts at night so would have to go on traditional track

EAS States 1 line to be kept open between St Pancras and Eurotunnel Boundary Monday to Friday nights (0035-0515). Although if you're running classic-compatible stock then the need to use HS1 in the first place is much reduced.

What drawbacks does this have? One I think could be a factor is the special ordering of specially designed trainstock that can deal with the different platform heights. Interested to hear suggestions.

The biggest one would be the extremely poor financials of it. Sleeper trains cost a lot to operate and have a relatively low revenue utilisation as you have a low passenger density. Couchettes realistically can't fit in the UK loading gauge and they're how Europe makes them more viable. So this service would either need a lot of subsidy or to charge extremely high fares. Destinations such as Geneva are in range which could command such fares, but further destinations that might command high fares like Scandinavia, Italy, Southern France or Spain would be looking at Lunchtime or afternoon arrivals, even with earlier starts from Manchester. Which then makes an early flight for a lot less money more competitive.

Could they even use HS2 when its open?

No, there is no connection for passenger trains heading south towards London to get back off HS2. Once a train from e.g. Manchester enters HS2, it will be able to get to Birmingham Curzon Street or Old Oak/Euston only.

 

[JLH4AC]

Couchettes realistically can't fit in the UK loading gauge and they're how Europe makes them more viable.

If the dividing wall (The one with the door between the rooms) of the Night Riviera cabins and the sinks were replaced with a single table they would effectively be couchette compartments (4-6 berth non or semi-private sleeping compartments with no washbasin, and upper bunks that is able to be folded up to allow the lower bunk to be used as a couch.) yet more roomier than continental counterparts. Purpose-built cabins would allow that extra space to be used for at least another cabin or more roomy toilet/washroom facilities. I am pretty sure that the reason why couchettes are not found on British sleeper trains is because most Brits don't want to share a room with strangers if they are sleeping in a bed even if it would save them money, or at least that is what the railway companies seem to think.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Perhaps there should be a survey done in Liverpool.

If you were travelling to the South Coast of France, from Liverpool, for a long weekend:-

Would you rather pay £400 per person and spend 14 hours in a couchette room on a train (a couchette bed is 180cm long, 60cm wide with 60cm headroom), sharing a space with 5 other people, you don't know. If you are travelling with a partner of a different sex, you will be in different rooms. At least one traveller in your couchette will probably be rowdy, play loud Tik-Toks or videos all night, get very drunk and maybe wet themselves or vomit in the couchette above you.

Or

Spend £50 per person on a flight, with a small surcharge for sitting next to your partner, and arrive at your destination in less than 2 hours?

 

[Brubulus]

Perhaps there should be a survey done in Liverpool.

If you were travelling to the South Coast of France, from Liverpool, for a long weekend:-

Would you rather pay £400 per person and spend 14 hours in a couchette room on a train (a couchette bed is 180cm long, 60cm wide with 60cm headroom), sharing a space with 5 other people, you don't know. If you are travelling with a partner of a different sex, you will be in different rooms. At least one traveller in your couchette will probably be rowdy, play loud Tik-Toks or videos all night, get very drunk and maybe wet themselves or vomit in the couchette above you.

Or

Spend £50 per person on a flight, with a small surcharge for sitting next to your partner, and arrive at your destination in less than 2 hours?

This isn't some gotcha argument against sleeper trains but instead an advert for the OBB model of mini cabin sleepers, which assuming a fleet of passenger coaches built to W12, could probably work. Then you get privacy at couchette prices, and get to arrive at your destination refreshed at 9 in the morning having left at 7 in the evening . No losing your day to airport and flight stress, it could be framed as a great option.

 

[BlueLeanie]

There's only a tiny minority of people who are stressed by airports or flights.

I've never lost a day to a European flight, I wouldn't be "refreshed" after 12-14 hours in a couchette with someone drinking and playing videos all night. I'd be utterly exhausted at 09:00 and desperate to get checked into my hotel at 16:00.

It'd still be £400 e/w at Couchette prices. Can fly to Orlando from Manchester for less.

 

[Bald Rick]

When you say “ignore politics”, does this mean “ignore current law and arrangements for border control”?