South Coast to London

[The Ham]

On the "Southern add 40 vehicles to order" it is being argued that passengers form Brighton to London (and for that matter Portsmouth) do not want commuter style trains they would rather be able to travel on intercity style trains.

There is nothing wrong with the sentiment and it is likely that if there was such a service it would attract more people to use it. However therein lies the problem, as the services are already fairly busy and there are no free paths to provide the extra trains that would be needed.

The trains from the SWML could well see intercity type trains (well at least all being class 444's rather than having to be 450's) if Crossrail 2 was built as a regional metro taking most of the routes currently serviced by SWT's class 455's. This would free up a lot of paths into Waterloo, so with some other infrastructure projects (grade separating the junction at Woking for instance) this could enable more long distance services to run.

What other potential works would be needed between Woking and Wimbledon (proposed start of the core tunnels for Crossrail 2), assuming the services to Epsom & Chessington South would not need to use the mail line to enter the tunnels, to enable at least an extra 4 trains an hour (1 from Southampton, 2 from Portsmouth and 1 from Salisbury) and ideally with space for a few more (but that would likely require more capacity enhancements further out at places like Basingstoke and Guildford).

For the Brighton Line, would there be a suitable way of removing a lot of the metro type services from the main line so that there could be more Brighton/Gatwick services? Is now the time to look to start thinking about Thameslink 2020 (which won't get finished until much later, so don't worry about the implied date in the title!!) or would a new (almost highspeed) line be more cost beneficial?

Also what do you do about Brighton station, do you remove the east west services from the main station by building a tunnel under it to free up capacity that way (akin to Crossrail)? If you are doing that do you link both services together or do you run them separately (so you don't have disruption to the east causing problems to those in the west and vis-a-versa) with them extending (say for 1-2km) beyond the main station with the possibility of new stations elsewhere in Brighton.

 

[mr_jrt]

First thoughts: Brighton station is in no way short of platform capacity. It has an out of use old arrival platform on the eastern side which enables the old original side entrance to be used (as the platform is fenced off and thus the platform can remain outside the gate line), there is also a cab road of sorts going down the middle. This could easily provide a couple more platforms if needed, if not 3-4.

There are good arguments for a direct connection of the east and west coastway services...but platform capacity at Brighton isn't one of them.

Using a more traditional service model of all-stations-then-fast, there's nothing to say services couldn't run all-stations from Worthing to Brighton, then the driver changes ends and it runs fast to London...it's just that the coastway services fill a London-bound train on their own, as do a lot of the trains that start at Brighton. Unless you had some way of increasing the capacity from a 12-car 377, then things are probably fine as they are.

 

[thelem]

Speaking as someone who regularly commutes between Brighton and Gatwick or Portsmouth, I much prefer the journey to Gatwick than along the south coast.

Rolling stock wise my favourites are the 377s, as leaving Brighton I can usually get a comfortable seat at a table, followed by the 442s where I'll normally get a comfortable seat, but no table, then finally the 319s which are still reasonably comfortable. I've also got the choice of fast or slow services.

Along the south coast you'll get a 377 (great) or a 313 with ironing board seats and no tables - this on a route that is much easier to add capacity to using stock that has been recently refurbished (I can understand toilets were difficult - but why not fit comfortable seats with tables?). You've also got a choice between slow or very slow - I'd love to see a service calling at Brighton, Hove, Worthing, Barnham or Ford, Chichester, Havant then Southampton or Fratton/P&S/PH.

I'm not bothered if a train has end doors or 1/3 and 2/3 doors.

 

[els]

First thoughts: Brighton station is in no way short of platform capacity. It has an out of use old arrival platform on the eastern side which enables the old original side entrance to be used (as the platform is fenced off and thus the platform can remain outside the gate line), there is also a cab road of sorts going down the middle. This could easily provide a couple more platforms if needed, if not 3-4.

There are good arguments for a direct connection of the east and west coastway services...but platform capacity at Brighton isn't one of them.

Using a more traditional service model of all-stations-then-fast, there's nothing to say services couldn't run all-stations from Worthing to Brighton, then the driver changes ends and it runs fast to London...it's just that the coastway services fill a London-bound train on their own, as do a lot of the trains that start at Brighton. Unless you had some way of increasing the capacity from a 12-car 377, then things are probably fine as they are.

I'm not sure I completely agree with your claim that Brighton in no way has a capacity problem. Platform 9 would be fine, although it would be outside the gateline. But slotting an extra platform on the road inbetween platforms 7/8 would eat into the length of platforms 7/8, so they could only fit a few coaches in. As it is, the Mainline platforms are often stacked full with FCC trains in particular. So these carriages would just be displaced into the new platforms (also, the rail gourmet people would lose their refilling station!)

With Thameslink trains lengthening to 12 coaches, I reckon platforms 1/2, which are inaccessible to mainline services, should be realigned so they're parallel to platform 3 and point northwards (cutting across some existing sidings). Platform 1 would be able to serve west coastway as well as mainline, much like platform 3 currently does. Then have two extra west coastway platforms begin where the final third of platforms 1/2 currently are.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the "Southern add 40 vehicles to order" it is being argued that passengers form Brighton to London (and for that matter Portsmouth) do not want commuter style trains they would rather be able to travel on intercity style trains.

There is nothing wrong with the sentiment and it is likely that if there was such a service it would attract more people to use it. However therein lies the problem, as the services are already fairly busy and there are no free paths to provide the extra trains that would be needed.

The trains from the SWML could well see intercity type trains (well at least all being class 444's rather than having to be 450's) if Crossrail 2 was built as a regional metro taking most of the routes currently serviced by SWT's class 455's. This would free up a lot of paths into Waterloo, so with some other infrastructure projects (grade separating the junction at Woking for instance) this could enable more long distance services to run.

What other potential works would be needed between Woking and Wimbledon (proposed start of the core tunnels for Crossrail 2), assuming the services to Epsom & Chessington South would not need to use the mail line to enter the tunnels, to enable at least an extra 4 trains an hour (1 from Southampton, 2 from Portsmouth and 1 from Salisbury) and ideally with space for a few more (but that would likely require more capacity enhancements further out at places like Basingstoke and Guildford).

The London and SE RUS covers all this doesn't it?

The two options they discuss are basically either the 5th track inbound from Surbiton for mainline services OR to transfer all the inner suburbans through Wimbledon to Crossrail - the clear implication is that with the latter there is enough capacity released for major improvements to the longer distance services anyway, without further infrastructure requirements in the inner area.

 

[mr_jrt]

I'm not sure I completely agree with your claim that Brighton in no way has a capacity problem. Platform 9 would be fine, although it would be outside the gateline. But slotting an extra platform on the road inbetween platforms 7/8 would eat into the length of platforms 7/8, so they could only fit a few coaches in. As it is, the Mainline platforms are often stacked full with FCC trains in particular. So these carriages would just be displaced into the new platforms (also, the rail gourmet people would lose their refilling station!)

I think there's some clear opportunity to move the pointwork northwards to enable full-length platforms without issue. Compare the width of the platform 6&7 island to the 3&4 island and especially the 8&9 island, for example.

 

[stephen_c]

SWML
The "fifth track" from Surbiton is a crazy idea, and should never have made it as far as the RUS. IMO, the key is separating the long-distance, outer suburban and inner suburbans, giving each 2 tracks.

The best way to do this is to build a 2 track tunnel from Esher to east of Clapham Junction with no stations. Then, start digging Crossrail 2 from Clapham Junction (or perhaps near Battersea power station) rather than digging from Raynes Park. The combined cost of these two schemes is lower than the combined cost of the "fifth track" plus CR2 from Raynes Park. (Cheaper because underground stations are expensive compared to tunnelling). The only real downside is no new link to Tooting.

Inner suburban (Epsom/Kingston/Hampton Court) would use the SWML slow lines and on to CR2 - 24tph. Outer suburban (Kingston/Woking/Guildford/Farnham) would use the SWML fast lines with a cross platform interchange to CR2 at Wimbledon before terminating at Waterloo - up to 20tph. Long distance would use the new tunnel before terminating at Waterloo - up to 20tph.

A true step change in capacity for the route.

Brighton
Brighton is somewhere that tram-trains should be considered. Brighton station is a good 10 minute walk from the shops and sea, with a simple straight route of mostly buses ideal for a tram - Queens Road. Run the tram-trains through from Seaford, and perhaps Ringmer east of Lewes.

It may also be desirable to run trams from the Worthing/Hove direction too. Perhaps the best option would be tram-train from Littlehampton to Hove, then street running through the shopping area along Western Road, then up Queen's road to Brighton station and on to Seaford/Lewes. Change at Hove or Brighton for London.

Would dramatically change the cities transport. I suspect the biggest problem may be the capacity of a tram-train vs the capacity of a train.

BTW, a tunnel under the Brighton station throat betwen the coastways is very difficult to impossible, due to the viaduct and deep valley on the east side.

 

[mr_jrt]

Brighton
Brighton is somewhere that tram-trains should be considered. Brighton station is a good 10 minute walk from the shops and sea, with a simple straight route of mostly buses ideal for a tram - Queens Road. Run the tram-trains through from Seaford, and perhaps Ringmer east of Lewes.

It may also be desirable to run trams from the Worthing/Hove direction too. Perhaps the best option would be tram-train from Littlehampton to Hove, then street running through the shopping area along Western Road, then up Queen's road to Brighton station and on to Seaford/Lewes. Change at Hove or Brighton for London.

Would dramatically change the cities transport. I suspect the biggest problem may be the capacity of a tram-train vs the capacity of a train.

BTW, a tunnel under the Brighton station throat betwen the coastways is very difficult to impossible, due to the viaduct and deep valley on the east side.

Hmm. I'm not sure tram-trains are a go-er...for both line capacity and passenger capacity issues. The city used to have trams of course, but I'm not sure duplicating the coastway routes now would do anything other than make both routes uneconomical at this moment in time. Once the coastway services reach capacity (and that will happen sooner than normal as there are a LOT of level crossings) then it's something that could be looked at, perhaps by closing some of the smaller stations to speed up services...but I'm just not seeing it myself. As much as I'd like to see them return, I'm not sure the buses are busy enough to justify a new tram network from the station to Old Steine and along the seafront.

 

[The Ham]

Hmm. I'm not sure tram-trains are a go-er...for both line capacity and passenger capacity issues. The city used to have trams of course, but I'm not sure duplicating the coastway routes now would do anything other than make both routes uneconomical at this moment in time. Once the coastway services reach capacity (and that will happen sooner than normal as there are a LOT of level crossings) then it's something that could be looked at, perhaps by closing some of the smaller stations to speed up services...but I'm just not seeing it myself. As much as I'd like to see them return, I'm not sure the buses are busy enough to justify a new tram network from the station to Old Steine and along the seafront.

Duplication may not be a problem it would depend on who set the prices for the trams.

If they were included in the bus pass then the trams would be very busy, and could remove the need for some of the buses. However anyone using the coastway services to get to London (and not using the buses at other time) would still find it cheaper to go by train so would continue to do so (as would those from further afield).

If they were set by the TOC then yes there wouldn't be as much movement from the trains to tram, but then there probably wouldn't be enough users of the trams to make it worth running them.

Given how numerous the buses in Brighton are (between the town and the uni there is often a bus every three minutes) a tram could well be useful. However it shouldn't be at the expense of the existing train services.

 

[mr_jrt]

They are indeed frequent. I got that in response when making an argument to either reopen Holland Road station as Brighton West (and rename London Road as Brighton East), or to close London Road.

What would the capacity gains be from operating trams along, say, Western Road from Shoreham and up to the station? If you're removing the existing buses that seem to be working, what would be the benefits? (It's a legitimate query - I'm very pro-tram, but Brighton has excellent bus services and no opportunities for light-rail segregation...)

Bi-mode trolleybuses might work to reduce emissions perhaps...the existing hybrid buses are great...and juice wires might enable them to keep the engines off on the busier roads.

 

[joeykins82]

I've noticed recently that Southern's trains on the BML have an interesting mix of seating configurations; 2 of each 4 car set are in 2+2 mostly-table long distance format and the other 2 cars in 3+2 commuter capacity configuration. I wonder if we might see more of this sort of thing.

Regarding BML capacity in particular, part of the answer is IMO to scrap Gatwick Express premium pricing. The service is operated by the same TOC and charging a significant amount more just loads more people on to the already crowded normal Southern or FCC services. It's £13.20 (or £8.70 with a railcard) for a Southern off-peak single from Victoria to GTW taking 31 minutes or £18.90 (Network/Gold cards not valid) for a 30 minute express. That works out to a time cost of £342 per hour! If the express pricing was scrapped there'd be a more sensible loading across the services and it'd give Southern/whoever more flexibility with the 4 paths per hour.

 

[thelem]

I've noticed recently that Southern's trains on the BML have an interesting mix of seating configurations; 2 of each 4 car set are in 2+2 mostly-table long distance format and the other 2 cars in 3+2 commuter capacity configuration. I wonder if we might see more of this sort of thing.

It depends on the set actually - some are as you describe, while others have the 3+2 between the doors in each car, with 2+2 in the ends, and others are 2+2 throughout.

Regarding BML capacity in particular, part of the answer is IMO to scrap Gatwick Express premium pricing. The service is operated by the same TOC and charging a significant amount more just loads more people on to the already crowded normal Southern or FCC services. It's £13.20 (or £8.70 with a railcard) for a Southern off-peak single from Victoria to GTW taking 31 minutes or £18.90 (Network/Gold cards not valid) for a 30 minute express. That works out to a time cost of £342 per hour! If the express pricing was scrapped there'd be a more sensible loading across the services and it'd give Southern/whoever more flexibility with the 4 paths per hour.

Presumably it's often quicker to get a Southern too if that's the first train to leave, and you might end up travelling on a 442.

 

[stephen_c]

Hmm. I'm not sure tram-trains are a go-er...for both line capacity and passenger capacity issues. The city used to have trams of course, but I'm not sure duplicating the coastway routes now would do anything other than make both routes uneconomical at this moment in time. Once the coastway services reach capacity (and that will happen sooner than normal as there are a LOT of level crossings) then it's something that could be looked at, perhaps by closing some of the smaller stations to speed up services...but I'm just not seeing it myself. As much as I'd like to see them return, I'm not sure the buses are busy enough to justify a new tram network from the station to Old Steine and along the seafront.

The plan would be for the same tram to run from Seaford via Lewes to Brighton, through the front of the station and down to Western Road. As a tram-train, perfectly do-able. The Seaford branch would be tram and freight only. Lewes to Brighton would be mostly tram-trains mixed with one or two fast tph to Eastbourne (terminating in Brighton station). The coastway slow services cease to be trains at all - only fast services continue.

There is a ready market from Lewes to Brighton (a busy route) and from the universities at Falmer (who take lots of buses). So the "light rail segregation" in the Brighton area does exist - its the existing rail track.