South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Dai Corner]

You need to fit 'transformative' in there somewhere as well.

Transformative World-class Innovative Transit System?

 

[gareth950]

Transformative World-class Innovative Transit System?

Absolutely

 

[gareth950]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/another-design-cardiff-bus-hma-14545562

Economy Minister Ken Skates said: "Our vision is to create a modern, integrated metro network which puts users right at its heart. Working with our partners we want to provide world class, accessible public transport for all that can encourage modal shift and be the spark for inclusive economic growth right across the wider region.

“The Cardiff Central Interchange is key to this vision and we are pleased to have been able to support the progression of this vital project by stepping in to acquire the site.

Proactive Welsh Government support of this kind to stimulate strategic transport interchange sites and help attract wider investment is a model I’m exploring in other areas of Wales, too.”

Does the man realise that he is now becoming a parody of himself? Does he have world class cornflakes for breakfast as well? He can use as many buzz words as he likes, it won't make his plans any better than the final reality.

I've got to give it to him though, he's an expert at making his plans sound ****ing fantastic without telling us what his plans actually are.

 

[waverley47]

So to translate: "we thought about getting some trains or something, but instead we're now talking about buying a couple of buildings in Cardiff. If it goes well, we might even do it in Newport as well!"

 

[Envoy]

What about the situation regarding the line from Cardiff Central to the coast and on to Bridgend? Suppose at some point in the future, Aberthaw Power Station (coal fired) & Aberthaw Cement Works closed - thus freight trains gone from this line. This line, via Rhoose & Llantwit Major is the main diversionary route when the mainline via St.Fagans is closed. Surely, Network Rail would wish to retain this line under their control to have the option of this diversionary route?

 

[Del1977]

What about the situation regarding the line from Cardiff Central to the coast and on to Bridgend? Suppose at some point in the future, Aberthaw Power Station (coal fired) & Aberthaw Cement Works closed - thus freight trains gone from this line. This line, via Rhoose & Llantwit Major is the main diversionary route when the mainline via St.Fagans is closed. Surely, Network Rail would wish to retain this line under their control to have the option of this diversionary route?

I'm guessing that diversions and the freight flows are the reason why Cardiff-Barry Island is not being "Metrofied", at least not yet.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm guessing that diversions and the freight flows are the reason why Cardiff-Barry Island is not being "Metrofied", at least not yet.

youll see the stations branded and the 150's it will be a ptretend 1980's Regional Railways metro.

 

[158756]

youll see the stations branded and the 150's it will be a ptretend 1980's Regional Railways metro.

And if the Metro plan doesn't happen in the Valleys what will the trains at Barry Island look like? 150s with new branding most likely.

 

[Gareth Marston]

And if the Metro plan doesn't happen in the Valleys what will the trains at Barry Island look like? 150s with new branding most likely.

it will be world class branding though.....

 

[gareth950]

it will be world class branding though.....

 

[Del1977]

I actually quite like the Class 150s. I remember them being introduced on the Valley Lines with that "Sprinter" logo. Was a big improvement over the old slam-door stock. Obviously, there were issues - seats poorly aligned with windows, seats too low to see out of the window etc. etc.

It's the Pacers that are the real issue, imo.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I actually quite like the Class 150s. I remember them being introduced on the Valley Lines with that "Sprinter" logo. Was a big improvement over the old slam-door stock. Obviously, there were issues - seats poorly aligned with windows, seats too low to see out of the window etc. etc.

It's the Pacers that are the real issue, imo.

Big improvement? The old units had large comfortable seats which lined up with the wiñdows and doors and the bonus of a forward view through the cabs. The doors to every seating bay enabled much quicker loading and unloading. They also had commodious guards compartments for carrying bikes, prams and heavy luggage etc. There was far less engine noise and there was almost no need to step up to enter the train. The Sprinter Logo did not compensate for the loss of the Valley Lines/Tren y Cwm branding. The Pacers? What can one say without offending anyone within ear shot?

 

[daikilo]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/another-design-cardiff-bus-hma-14545562

Economy Minister Ken Skates said: "Our vision is to create a modern, integrated metro network which puts users right at its heart. Working with our partners we want to provide world class, accessible public transport for all that can encourage modal shift and be the spark for inclusive economic growth right across the wider region.

“The Cardiff Central Interchange is key to this vision and we are pleased to have been able to support the progression of this vital project by stepping in to acquire the site.

Proactive Welsh Government support of this kind to stimulate strategic transport interchange sites and help attract wider investment is a model I’m exploring in other areas of Wales, too.”

Does the man realise that he is now becoming a parody of himself? Does he have world class cornflakes for breakfast as well? He can use as many buzz words as he likes, it won't make his plans any better than the final reality.

I've got to give it to him though, he's an expert at making his plans sound ****ing fantastic without telling us what his plans actually are.

So Central will be the interchange and not Queen Street. Next step he will discover that it is more efficient to have trains that just stop at Central rather than the complication of reversing....

As for branding, hopefully it won't be transformational as well as leaving it as it is will help to make it at least credible.

 

[gareth950]

So Central will be the interchange and not Queen Street. Next step he will discover that it is more efficient to have trains that just stop at Central rather than the complication of reversing....

As for branding, hopefully it won't be transformational as well as leaving it as it is will help to make it at least credible.

Ah but you see, in order for the Valley lines to be world class and transformational, the current re-signalled and recently upgraded by Network Rail network, needs to be smashed up and the heads of the Valleys must have 4 trams per hour, instead of 2 x up to 6 car trains per hour.
And the already delivered benefits of CASR, which were being regarded as a 'sunk cost' by Welsh Govt before Network Rail even completed the work, must be never used and written off.
And of course the freshly painted and re-liveried ATW 150s and 143s will also be re-liveried and re-painted yet again.
There seems to be a pattern here of money literally being poured down a metaphorical drain, don't you think?

 

[Parallel]

I don’t really have any issues with Pacers on the Valley lines. Other than keeping them (which would be political suicide) the biggest issues on the Valleys is capacity. In terms of how they run, Pacers are generally well suited due to their quick acceleration between frequent stops.

The problem with ATW’s 142s and 143s is their condition internally. The FGW ones are much better looked after as far as cleanliness is concerned.

Anyone know why Arriva spent money refreshing the seating on their pacers last year? I know a lot of 143s had mismatched seating cushions, is that the reason? Seems a bit wasteful.

 

[Del1977]

Big improvement? The old units had large comfortable seats which lined up with the wiñdows and doors and the bonus of a forward view through the cabs. The doors to every seating bay enabled much quicker loading and unloading. They also had commodious guards compartments for carrying bikes, prams and heavy luggage etc. There was far less engine noise and there was almost no need to step up to enter the train. The Sprinter Logo did not compensate for the loss of the Valley Lines/Tren y Cwm branding. The Pacers? What can one say without offending anyone within ear shot?

Yes, I already noted about the windows. But they were also rather slow and had slam-doors. I'm not sure a small logo with "Valley Lines" on it was a particularly big feature that mattered to 99% of the passengers.

Pacers are generally well suited due to their quick acceleration between frequent stops.

Are Pacers quicker than other DMUs? Can't say I've noticed. And they're definitely slower than EMUs of practically any kind.

 

[gareth950]

I don’t really have any issues with Pacers on the Valley lines. Other than keeping them (which would be political suicide) the biggest issues on the Valleys is capacity. In terms of how they run, Pacers are generally well suited due to their quick acceleration between frequent stops.

The problem with ATW’s 142s and 143s is their condition internally. The FGW ones are much better looked after as far as cleanliness is concerned.

Anyone know why Arriva spent money refreshing the seating on their pacers last year? I know a lot of 143s had mismatched seating cushions, is that the reason? Seems a bit wasteful.

Why did Welsh Govt gove ATW money to fit WiFi to all 143s and 142s?
The 143s still had the original red and green seat coverings from the Valley lines franchise of 18 years ago.
So whilst ATW spent a few thousand internally deep cleaning and giving new seat covers to it's Pacers, there still are some 150s running around with threadbare seat covers and dirty interiors.

 

[Del1977]

Why did Welsh Govt gove ATW money to fit WiFi to all 143s and 142s?
The 143s still had the original red and green seat coverings from the Valley lines franchise of 18 years ago.
So whilst ATW spent a few thousand internally deep cleaning and giving new seat covers to it's Pacers, there still are some 150s running around with threadbare seat covers and dirty interiors.

I had a rare return ride on two Valley Lines Pacers a few months ago. Can't say I was particularly impressed with the state of them - didn't seem like they had been recently refurbished...

 

[Del1977]

It would appear that Transport For Wales has taken down the 2-3 page Metro line by line packages, and they are now all buried in the Strategic Environment Assessment some 224 pages long.

No doubt this was causing too much political pressure, as idle AMs and other interested people were looking at the plans for the lines in their areas. They'll find it much more difficult now!

 

[gareth950]

Carwyn Jones said yesterday at FMQs that "he'd never expressed a strong preference for the M4 relief road black route."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43886318

Mr Jones said: "I don't think I've expressed a strong preference for either route - nor can I because I will be the decision taker who takes the final decision."

 

[Gareth Marston]

Carwyn Jones said yesterday at FMQs that "he'd never expressed a strong preference for the M4 relief road black route."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43886318

Mr Jones said: "I don't think I've expressed a strong preference for either route - nor can I because I will be the decision taker who takes the final decision."

Sounds like he's trying to distance his legacy from anything to do with it.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It would appear that Transport For Wales has taken down the 2-3 page Metro line by line packages, and they are now all buried in the Strategic Environment Assessment some 224 pages long.

No doubt this was causing too much political pressure, as idle AMs and other interested people were looking at the plans for the lines in their areas. They'll find it much more difficult now!

Surprised they appeared and stayed in first place one suspects the sticky stuff has been hitting the fans from Town Councils, Councillors and people in non "core" valleys and towns wondering where there long overdue and seemingly promised improvements have gone.

 

[Dai Corner]

Front page of the South Wales Argus today

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...rs_vent_their_frustrations_over_delayed_work/

CALLS have been made for the resurrection of a long-standing South Wales Argus campaign to reopen a rail passenger line between Newport and Ebbw Vale.

Conservative councillor Matthew Evans told a meeting of Newport City Council that the “Get Us Back On Track” campaign could help the efforts of politicians at local and national level to bring the delayed plans forward.

The campaign was launched in 2002 and drew in support from across the political spectrum.

This week, a motion calling for the Welsh Government to act “as a matter of urgency” was unanimously backed at a full council meeting.

Cllr Evans, who submitted the motion on Tuesday, said: “The link would be stimulating for the economy. [Newport AMs] John Griffiths and Jayne Bryant have both called the link crucial.

“It’s frustrating that it’s taken an awfully long time to try and get things done. We’ve been talking about this since the last century.”

The motion was seconded by Cllr Evans’ opposite number Councillor Debbie Wilcox, with the council leader describing the issue as being “bigger than party issues”.

“People don’t want us squabbling over petty party politics,” said Cllr Wilcox.

“We need a regular service between Newport and Ebbw Vale. It would help ease congestion on the A467, which is an absolute nightmare if you live in Rogerstone.”

Cllr Wilcox also said that the issue would be raised with fellow council leaders involved in the Cardiff Capital Region City Deal.

Councillor Chris Evans, of the Newport Independents, was encouraged by the cross-party consensus on the issue.

He said: “[This link] is the missing piece of the jigsaw. Newport has that historic link of being the capital of the Valleys region.

“It's time to stop with the speeches and build the link.”

Deputy leader Councillor Mark Whitcutt hoped that the Welsh Government would make changes to its South Wales Metro scheme to include the link.

“We’re a major city, third largest city in Wales and it's surely right that we’re linked to the Valleys as we once were by rail,” said Cllr Whitcutt.

“The link is all about providing south east Wales with a decent rail and public transport service.”

Speaking after the meeting, South Wales Argus editor Nicole Garnon welcomed Cllr Evans' comments, adding: “I have been looking into relaunching the campaign for some time, as it is ridiculous that nothing has been done in the 16 years since its launch.”

 

[Del1977]

While I agree with their campaign for more rail services, I'm not quite so sure I agree with the councillor's statement that "(Newport) is a major city". It's just not.

 

[Dai Corner]

While I agree with their campaign for more rail services, I'm not quite so sure I agree with the councillor's statement that "(Newport) is a major city". It's just not.

It is from a Welsh perspective; the third largest after Cardiff and Swansea.

The population of the City is around 150,000 but the urban area extends into Torfaen and Caerphilly and has a population about double that. If we had sensibly sized local authorities in Wales that 300,000 population would see it overtake Swansea, Derby, Plymouth, Milton Keynes and Aberdeen for example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[The Ham]

It is from a Welsh perspective; the third largest after Cardiff and Swansea.

The population of the City is around 150,000 but the urban area extends into Torfaen and Caerphilly and has a population about double that. If we had sensibly sized local authorities in Wales that 300,000 population would see it overtake Swansea, Derby, Plymouth, Milton Keynes and Aberdeen for example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom

There's an element of selective listing there, as it would also overtake Southend on Sea, Luton and Farnborough/Aldershot built up areas, none of which could be cited as a major Cities yet have similar populations to those you've listed.

 

[Dai Corner]

There's an element of selective listing there, as it would also overtake Southend on Sea, Luton and Farnborough/Aldershot built up areas, none of which could be cited as a major Cities yet have similar populations to those you've listed.

I had cities in mind, not towns (though now remember Milton Keynes doesn't have city status).

 

[HH]

Bidders had freedom? Sure. Welsh Govt have have made it crystal clear since 2014/15 that they wanted light rail on the Valley lines. A bidder could have proposed Heavy rail, but they would've had zero chance of winning with it. The public 'consultation' that TfW carried out into the 'Metro' was biased towards this, and had no room for views about the end of cross city heavy rail services and impacts on passengers in the Vale and west of Cardiff.

A pleasant surprise? Like what? Every single article I have read into this process points to a break up of the current Cardiff local, Vale and Valleys network to enable to creation of the politically constructed 'Core Valley lines' to be hived off from everything else. Ebbw Vale is one of the busiest and fastest growing Valley lines, why isn't this deemed to be 'Core', and so is seen as less important?

If the budget won't extend to electrifying the whole network, then the Valleys should be Heavy rail electrified and bi-modes ordered to allow continued through running to Barry, the Vale, Penarth and the western City line, as now. Then if the political will returns in future, HR electrification can be extended to these lines to complete the job. But that's too sensible.

How about Tri-Modes?

 

[Envoy]

If south Wales politicians went around and actually asked their constituents whether they wanted a Metro system with trams or tram-trains running in the ‘core valleys’ and on the streets of Cardiff or the black route M4, then I am sure that most people would go for the M4.

It is appalling that Newport is still not linked to Ebbw Vale by train. It is not just about Newport but linking the Ebbw Valley with all points east of Newport. It is also appalling that still nothing has been done about building a new P&R station at St.Mellons to serve east Cardiff. If people in east Cardiff wish to go to/from England, then they are hardly going to go west into Cardiff Central or have the hassle of going by bus into central Newport for the train station. They are going to get in their cars and drive. Getting a P&R built in east Cardiff - on the relief lines - & getting the Cardiff to Taunton & Cheltenham stoppers to call in is the way to go. (It is ridiculous that trains on the relief’s are not allowed to go faster than 60mph). You don’t need any kind of Metro to address these matters.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Rhodri Clark in latest Modern Railways is floating Light Rail with discontinuous electrification as what he is being told is happening.