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Southeastern prosecutions

dee.monae

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2022
Messages
29
Location
Kent
I would like some advice regarding my situation, I was rushing on my way to the station to work due to issues with arranging cover for my sibling as I am a carer, and I did not have time to purchase a ticket. In the rare case that I am running late I usually buy a ticket off the inspector on the train, however as I asked to buy a ticket the inspector was actually a revenue protection officer and I got a penalty fare notice. I missed the deadline to pay my FPN as I left the country for a month and didn’t have access to the details of my FPN to pay it, so I appealed it but my appeal was rejected. I attempted to pay for my FPN this morning and the link was still available but I realised I didn’t have enough money as it declined this was around 8am, I then waited to call the prosecutions office at 10am which is when they opened and they said the link is no longer open and it has now been closed and I will be receiving a letter regarding prosecution. I really do not want this to go to court, is there anything I can do to avoid this?

Just to add I wanted to ask for more time to pay but as the system is automated it has automatically gone to court proceedings
 
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WesternLancer

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12 Apr 2019
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10,776
I would like some advice regarding my situation, I was rushing on my way to the station to work due to issues with arranging cover for my sibling as I am a carer, and I did not have time to purchase a ticket. In the rare case that I am running late I usually buy a ticket off the inspector on the train, however as I asked to buy a ticket the inspector was actually a revenue protection officer and I got a penalty fare notice. I missed the deadline to pay my FPN as I left the country for a month and didn’t have access to the details of my FPN to pay it, so I appealed it but my appeal was rejected. I attempted to pay for my FPN this morning and the link was still available but I realised I didn’t have enough money as it declined this was around 8am, I then waited to call the prosecutions office at 10am which is when they opened and they said the link is no longer open and it has now been closed and I will be receiving a letter regarding prosecution. I really do not want this to go to court, is there anything I can do to avoid this?

Just to add I wanted to ask for more time to pay but as the system is automated it has automatically gone to court proceedings
Welcome

This is all unfortunate.

To start with can you give a bit more information, specifically to understand a clear timeline here

1) Can you say the date when the penalty Fare (PF) was issued and
2) thus when the payment deadline was.
3) Also what was the date you submitted your appeal on?
4) and What was the date that appeal was rejected and you were informed the appeal was rejected
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
4,720
Please do provide the info requested above, but I suspect your next step will be to wait for the letter threatening prosecution and respond very apologetically, promising to buy a ticket before you board a train in future, and ask very nicely if they would consider an out of court settlement.
 

dee.monae

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2022
Messages
29
Location
Kent
Welcome

This is all unfortunate.

To start with can you give a bit more information, specifically to understand a clear timeline here

1) Can you say the date when the penalty Fare (PF) was issued and
2) thus when the payment deadline was.
3) Also what was the date you submitted your appeal on?
4) and What was the date that appeal was rejected and you were informed the appeal was rejected
The penalty fare was issued on the 19th of March, and the deadline was in April and then finally in 17th May 2025, I was still appealing at this point and I was written to to give further evidence which I did, then on the 4th of June I was given the decision that my appeal was rejected. I had 14 days to appeal the rejection and I sought advice but they took too long to respond so I endeavoured to raise the money to pay for the fine, but unfortunately I couldn’t in time hence why I called the prosecutions office to ask for more time to pay
 

WesternLancer

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12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,776
The penalty fare was issued on the 19th of March, and the deadline was in April and then finally in 17th May 2025, I was still appealing at this point and I was written to to give further evidence which I did, then on the 4th of June I was given the decision that my appeal was rejected. I had 14 days to appeal the rejection and I sought advice but they took too long to respond so I endeavoured to raise the money to pay for the fine, but unfortunately I couldn’t in time hence why I called the prosecutions office to ask for more time to pay
Thanks - it would just be helpful if you could answer the questions I listed out with clear dates - please use the numbers and letters I am using for each question

Is this correct?
1) Can you say the date when the penalty Fare (PF) was issued

19 March 2025

2) thus when the payment deadline was.

Presumably appeal or pay to get 50% reduced penalty within 21 days - so : 8 April - Is that date correct?

3) Also what was the date you submitted your appeal on?

Please state this date (when you appeal it stops the clock on the payment deadline which is re-started when the appeal decision is given to you)

4) and What was the date that appeal was rejected, and you were informed the appeal was rejected

4 June


from your message

then on the 4th of June I was given the decision that my appeal was rejected. I had 14 days to appeal the rejection
A) so did you make a stage 2 Appeal at this point? Yes or No (if yes that would have given you more time to raise the money to pay the Penalty). Am I correct to think you did not submit a further / second stage Appeal at this point?

I sought advice but they took too long to respond
B) Who did you seek advice from about this?
 
Last edited:

dee.monae

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2022
Messages
29
Location
Kent
Thanks - it would just be helpful if you could answer the questions I listed out with clear dates - please use the numbers and letters I am using for each question

Is this correct?
1) Can you say the date when the penalty Fare (PF) was issued

19 March 2025

2) thus when the payment deadline was.

Presumably appeal or pay to get 50% reduced penalty within 21 days - so : 8 April - Is that date correct?

3) Also what was the date you submitted your appeal on?

Please state this date (when you appeal it stops the clock on the payment deadline which is re-started when the appeal decision is given to you)

4) and What was the date that appeal was rejected, and you were informed the appeal was rejected

4 June


from your message


A) so did you make a stage 2 Appeal at this point? Yes or No (if yes that would have given you more time to raise the money to pay the Penalty)


B) Who did you seek advice from about this?
yes the fine was issued on the 19th and it was initially reduced within the 21 days but I missed the 21 day deadline due to being out of the country, I submitted an appeal initially on the 10th of April and got a response on the 17th, then I responded back on the 24th i then appealed again and got a response on the 2nd o May, they asked for further evidence of my travel dates on the 19th of May and I sent them my tickets that I used to travel to show I was not in the country on the 2nd of June and then on the 4th of June I received the final rejection letter. I missed the email of this and when I had a thorough look through my emails I saw that I had a 14 day deadline to submit a final appeal however I only realised this today hence why I called the prosecutions office for more time after attempting to pay this morning but realising I didn’t have enough money
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,776
yes the fine was issued on the 19th and it was initially reduced within the 21 days but I missed the 21 day deadline due to being out of the country, I submitted an appeal initially on the 10th of April and got a response on the 17th, then I responded back on the 24th i then appealed again and got a response on the 2nd o May, they asked for further evidence of my travel dates on the 19th of May and I sent them my tickets that I used to travel to show I was not in the country on the 2nd of June and then on the 4th of June I received the final rejection letter. I missed the email of this and when I had a thorough look through my emails I saw that I had a 14 day deadline to submit a final appeal however I only realised this today hence why I called the prosecutions office for more time after attempting to pay this morning but realising I didn’t have enough money
OK - well if you have missed deadlines to pay then they will have closed the payment window as you have discovered.

I think phoning them was probably a waste of time because you will likely not get to speak to anyone who has the authority to make a decision to allow you to pay it late if they are prepared to even allow that.

What I suggest you do is e-mail Southeastern with a short and clear e-mail asking them if they would re-open the payment period to allow you to pay the sum owed rather than the matter being escalated to court.

I think it would be best if you posted the draft of the request you want to e-mail to them here before you send it so that we can help you get it as good as it can be, but you do need to e-mail them soon

Quote any reference numbers from the Penalty Fare clearly in your e-mail to them

The e-mail address I believe you need to send this to is

[email protected]
 

alholmes

Member
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4 Jun 2012
Messages
477
Location
London E3
What I suggest you do is e-mail Southeastern with a short and clear e-mail asking them if they would re-open the payment period to allow you to pay the sum owed rather than the matter being escalated to court.
I think the OP needs to be clear to themselves and SouthEastern as to when they will have sufficient funds to pay the sum owed. No point asking Southeastern to reopen the system if they still can’t pay.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
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12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,776
I think the OP needs to be clear to themselves and SouthEastern as to when they will have sufficient funds to pay the sum owed. No point asking Southeastern to reopen the system if they still can’t pay.
Yes, this is a given, I totally agree.

I rather assumed that if the OP had gone on line to try and pay (but found it now closed for payment) that did in fact now have funds available to pay the sum owed.
 

dee.monae

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2022
Messages
29
Location
Kent
Yes, this is a given, I totally agree.

I rather assumed that if the OP had gone on line to try and pay (but found it now closed for payment) that did in fact now have funds available to pay the sum owed.
I aim to pay on this Friday, I will send an email asking if they can reopen the line, I would be rather grateful for this if they could do that
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,776
I aim to pay on this Friday, I will send an email asking if they can reopen the line, I would be rather grateful for this if they could do that
Thanks - I think you should tell them in your e-mail that you will be in a position to pay it on Friday

if you want to draft the wording of your e-mail here to help get it right before you send it them please do.

If they don't agree to this - and it goes to court, (or even if you have to request an out of court settlement) you need to be aware that it will almost certainly cost you a lot more to resolve - if you can borrow the money to pay it from a trusted friend or relative in order to pay it more quickly then Friday I would suggest you try to do this if it is at all possible. the longer this goes on the sum you will have to pay will just go up because they can add more costs and charges to it.

How much were you being asked to pay before the payment system closed?
 

dee.monae

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2022
Messages
29
Location
Kent
Thanks - I think you should tell them in your e-mail that you will be in a position to pay it on Friday

if you want to draft the wording of your e-mail here to help get it right before you send it them please do.

If they don't agree to this - and it goes to court, (or even if you have to request an out of court settlement) you need to be aware that it will almost certainly cost you a lot more to resolve - if you can borrow the money to pay it from a trusted friend or relative in order to pay it more quickly then Friday I would suggest you try to do this if it is at all possible. the longer this goes on the sum you will have to pay will just go up because they can add more costs and charges to it.

How much were you being asked to pay before the payment system closed?
Thank you, I was asked to pay £125
 

WesternLancer

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Messages
10,776
Thank you, I was asked to pay £125
OK - start preparing an e-mail to them asking if they can re-instate the ability to pay that £125.

But I urge you to get whatever you want to send to them checked here before you send it.
 

dee.monae

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2022
Messages
29
Location
Kent
Dear Prosecutions Department,

I am writing in relation to the above Penalty Fare Notice, which I understand has now been referred to legal proceedings due to the expiry of the payment deadline.

I appreciate the seriousness of the matter and I am committed to settling the outstanding amount in full. I previously appealed the penalty fare on the basis that I didn’t have intention to fare evade as I asked to buy a ticket on the train but encountered a Revenue Protection Officer who I explained my circumstances to at the time, which was that I running late to work due to difficulties in finding cover for my sibling who I am a carer of therefore not having time to purchase a ticket from the machine as I usually do. On any other day I would have boarded the next train and purchased a ticket first but on this particular day I had to get that train because I work as a Pharmacy Technician and I make chemotherapy drugs, due to the sensitive nature of my role and my department currently being understaffed it is imperative I am on time to work as being late may impact and delay the treatment of the cancer patients.

Unfortunately, due to my financial circumstances and excessive amount of financial responsibilities, I will not be able to make the payment until Friday 27th of June 2025. I attempted to make a payment this morning but due to lack of funds the payment declined. I endeavour to raise this money as soon as I can and make the payment on the date as promised.

I respectfully request for the payment line to be reopened and be granted a short extension of time to pay until this date and would be extremely grateful for your consideration. It is my intention to resolve this matter as soon as possible, and I appreciate your understanding of my situation.

If you require any further information or evidence to support my request, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your time and assistance.
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,776
Dear Prosecutions Department,

I am writing in relation to the above Penalty Fare Notice, which I understand has now been referred to legal proceedings due to the expiry of the payment deadline.

I appreciate the seriousness of the matter and I am committed to settling the outstanding amount in full. I previously appealed the penalty fare on the basis that I didn’t have intention to fare evade as I asked to buy a ticket on the train but encountered a Revenue Protection Officer who I explained my circumstances to at the time, which was that I running late to work due to difficulties in finding cover for my sibling who I am a carer of therefore not having time to purchase a ticket from the machine as I usually do. On any other day I would have boarded the next train and purchased a ticket first but on this particular day I had to get that train because I work as a Pharmacy Technician and I make chemotherapy drugs, due to the sensitive nature of my role and my department currently being understaffed it is imperative I am on time to work as being late may impact and delay the treatment of the cancer patients.

Unfortunately, due to my financial circumstances and excessive amount of financial responsibilities, I will not be able to make the payment until Friday 27th of June 2025. I attempted to make a payment this morning but due to lack of funds the payment declined. I endeavour to raise this money as soon as I can and make the payment on the date as promised.

I respectfully request for the payment line to be reopened and be granted a short extension of time to pay until this date and would be extremely grateful for your consideration. It is my intention to resolve this matter as soon as possible, and I appreciate your understanding of my situation.

If you require any further information or evidence to support my request, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your time and assistance.
I think that is all OK - ultimately I don't think your personal situation around why you were in a rush is something that they will see as being their problem, but it's what has happened and you have explained it clearly so maybe they will be sympathetic to things.

You might want to wish to wait until morning to see if others have any comments on this before you send it off to the railway company but otherwise I would send it early in the day tomorrow if you can.

state your full name, postal address, email address and ref number clearly in the message so they can match your case and contact you easily in order to reply

Good luck with this.
 

Tetchytyke

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Isle of Man
@dee.monae

This is a difficult one to advise on. Until recently, the law was clear that it was not allowed for a TOC to prosecute someone who had appealed a Penalty Fare.

SouthEastern recently obtained a non binding and advisory judgment from the Chief Magistrate that said that, actually, this is no longer the case. Many of us on this forum believe that the Chief Magistrate's interpretation of the law is mistaken. However SouthEastern have got what they wanted, and in any correspondence they are likely to refer to this judgment by the Chief Magistrate.

I would keep the letter/email very concise. Explain when you received the Penalty Fare, explain when you appealed, and explain that you have been unable to settle the Penalty Fare. Ask them to re-open the link so that you can settle the debt. Don't go into any more detail. Take out the waffle about the whys and wherefores of what happened; it is simply not relevant.

If SouthEastern refuse to allow you to settle the debt then you must come back. Many of us on the forum believe that you have a valid defence to a prosecution because you appealed the Penalty Fare, but because of the Chief Magistrate's unhelpful intervention it may require some legal knowledge to advance the defence.

@KirkstallOne and @John Palmer do you have anything to add?
 

KirkstallOne

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6 Jul 2023
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401
Location
Leeds
I would keep the letter/email very concise. Explain when you received the Penalty Fare, explain when you appealed, and explain that you have been unable to settle the Penalty Fare. Ask them to re-open the link so that you can settle the debt.
I think that is a good first step.

For the OP’s interest the issue as to whether you have a defence to prosecution should it come to that is discussed at length here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-appealed-penalty-fares-february-2025.287394/
 

John Palmer

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23 Oct 2015
Messages
393
Not sure I have followed the timeline correctly, but it seems the OP's second stage appeal (Reg.17) must have been submitted no later than 2nd May. The appeal body requested more information (?on 19th May) and the OP provided it (?on 2nd June). The appeal body then issued its rejection of the second stage appeal on 4th June.

Regulation 17(8A) of the penalty fares regs states that:

"If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—
(a) ...; or
(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2, the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey."


The paragraph referred to, Para.2 in Schedule 6, states that:

"Where an Appeal Panel receives an appeal under regulation 16 or 17, it must decide whether to allow or not allow the appeal before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appeal is received."

If it is correct that a period of some 35 days (2nd May to 4th June) elapsed between lodgment of the Reg.17 appeal and the appeal body's decision not to allow it, then that body has failed to decide the appeal within the period it was required to do so. That activates the consequences specified in Regulation 17(8A), i.e. the OP thereupon ceased to be liable to pay the penalty fare but remained liable to pay the full single fare applicable. The OP hasn't yet provided details of the "full single fare applicable", but it is likely to be the total amount said to be due on the penalty fare notice less the £100 penalty fare element. Whatever that full single fare is, it is now the sum the OP should pay to discharge the outstanding fare liability due. If payment of that amount is now sent to the train company, it should be accompanied by a letter (a copy of which the OP should retain) stating that full payment is enclosed of the amount now due as a consequence of the appeal body's failure to decide the appeal within the time allowed - and appropriate reference can be made to the relevant extracts from the penalty fares rules quoted above.

That appears to be the correct way for the OP to proceed according to my understanding of the penalty fares rules, and it is a conclusion that stands entirely distinct from the question of whether South Eastern Trains is prohibited from prosecuting the OP in consequence of the penalty fare having remained uncancelled following commencement of an appeal. I regret that in the strange legal shadow world we now occupy as result of the the Chief Magistrate's ruling referenced in @KirkstallOne's post above, no assurance can now be offered that passengers in receipt of a penalty fare will not also find themselves faced with prosecution in connection with the same incident as led to the penalty fare's issue.
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,776
I have been offered an out of court by Southeastern, thank you all for your advice, it is much appreciated.
Thanks for updating - good to hear they got back to you quickly. I see the price has gone up from £125 but they would probably argue they have had to do more admin because you were not able to pay when the payment window open.

It's a shame that you could not pay the Penalty fare promptly to benefit from the £50 discount

As I expect you appreciate now you should always buy your ticket before you board any train and never rely on being bale to buy a ticket from a guard on board
 

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